Personality Cafe banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

What do INTJs think of ESFJs? Duality Relationship

[INTJ]
Jump to Latest
21 - 40 of 46 Posts
#21 ·
Hunny Bunny said:
I apologize to all, I didn't realize that socionics was different than MBTI.

I am still interested in what ESFJ and INTJ relationships are like though, please continue share and thanks in advance to all!
Click to expand...
I'd really like to elaborate. My ex said that she was an ESFJ so I could give lots of experiences with that.
I wasn't sure if I was really a INTJ but after a brief stint in the ISTJ forum and more reading I am sure.
The thing I am not sure is about my ex. She really doesn't seem like an extrovert at all, it seemed like she had a ton of internal processes going on.
She had a few good friends like I did, she seems to have had a hard time making friends in all honesty...maybe even harder then I did lol. I really have a feeling she was a ISFJ and the reason she is testing as an ESFJ is because she is in a new city and felt confined by me.. so now she's likely just trying to answer test questions with the mindset that she's this outgoing person, ha.
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Bumblyjack said:
First off, let's talk about duals. Duality is when the two types have the same top four functions but in reverse order (ex. Ni, Te, Fi, Se matched with Se, Fi, Te, Ni). In Socionics, INTj and ESFj are duals. So are INTp and ESFp. In Myers-Briggs, based on the top four cognitive functions, an INTJ's dual partner is an ESFP. ESFJ's dual is INTP.

Ask the ISTP's how many annoying ENFP's invade their forum incorrectly stating "You're my ideal match, tell me more about your type." Seriously, it's annoying and moronic. Please get your facts straight and stop wandering around blindly...unless of course you're interested in buying my used car. If so, then I've got a deal for you. I love doing business with suckers.
Click to expand...
That really wasn't my purpose. I was just curious what INTJs thought of ESFJs and was confused about the duality thing (I'm not new to MBTI, but new at learning socionics) and I wanted to see what others thought - not find my ideal match. I'm actually very interested in all personality types and what makes them tick because that's who I am. I seek to understand all people but I also believe each person is an individual. So I really don't appreciate being called moronic are akin to a "sucker" going to buy a used car without knowing anything about it or what they are doing. I am here to learn, get to know others, and have a good time. That was a very rude and unkind statement and not as helpful as maybe you thought you were being?
 
#23 ·
cyamitide said:
Duality is between INTJs and ESFPs. With ESFJs, INTJs have conflict relations.

Socionics doesn't assign J/P letters to types the same way as MBTI, so be very careful - one letter off and you'll land yourself into conflict relationship! You cannot draw 1-to-1 correlations between socionics and MBTI types in this manner.

In duality relations types need to have same cognitive functions. This improves communication between them. If you look up cognitive functions of INTJ, they are Ni/Te/Fi/Se. Then if you look up cognitive functions of ESFP they are exactly the same ones, but in reverse order: Se/Ti/Te/Ni. This is how INTJs and ESFPs are dual partners of each other. Though it might take them a while to realize it, as intuitives on this forum are very prejudiced against extraverted sensors, not realizing that these people possess exactly the qualities they are lacking in (like drive and energy and enthusiasm that INTJs usually lack).

ESFJ cognitive functions are Fe-Si-Ne-Ti and INTJs really, really dislike both Fe and Si. This is how ESFJ is their conflict relation.

You can use this relationship chart to look up other types of relations. Most of INTJs will be INTp in socionics (INTp is Ni,Te type in that typology which corresponds to MBTI INTJ, while socionics INTj is the Ti,Ne type which corresponds to MBTI INTP).
Click to expand...
My question is if the INTJ typically test as INTp on socionics then what do the ESFJ typically test as? The same type? Seems if the testing is changing the INTJ's then it's bound to change other types as well.
 
#24 ·
Hunny Bunny said:
So I really don't appreciate being called moronic are akin to a "sucker" going to buy a used car without knowing anything about it or what they are doing.
Click to expand...
I meant that people who believe a certain MBTI type is their ideal match are morons and "suckers". It's typism as well as being just plain foolish. My comment wasn't aimed at you directly. I didn't mean that mixing up Myers-Briggs and Socionics types was dumb. That's a common mistake due to how the two systems use the same labels for different things.
 
#25 ·
INTJ the DC said:
My question is if the INTJ typically test as INTp on socionics then what do the ESFJ typically test as? The same type? Seems if the testing is changing the INTJ's then it's bound to change other types as well.
Click to expand...
ESFJ stays ESFj. Only introverted types get a change in last letter.

Testing doesn't change INTJ. It's just that in Socionics the last letter j/p is assigned differently and this difference only affects the introverted types. The cognitive function layout stays the same. In MBTI the type with functions Ni/Te/Fi/Se is called INTJ. In socionics the type with those same functions is called INTp.

You should always determine your type by cognitive functions rather than four-letter labels.
 
#26 · (Edited)
cyamitide said:
ESFJ stays ESFj. Only introverted types get a change in last letter.

Testing doesn't change INTJ. It's just that in Socionics the last letter j/p is assigned differently and this difference only affects the introverted types. The cognitive function layout stays the same. In MBTI the type with functions Ni/Te/Fi/Se is called INTJ. In socionics the type with those same functions is called INTp.

You should always determine your type by cognitive functions rather than four-letter labels.
Click to expand...
Okay I get that.

..However about your last sentence.
It's pretty hard to for me to grasp how to interpret the cognitive functions though.
I mean some things like Intuition seem relative. For instance I call it common sense, I feel like I have good common sense and there are people who don't. That's kind of the difference that I tell myself between someone who uses intuition vs. not having any. But what if they have instincts about different things then I do how would I know? lol

However something like Se sensing. Using your senses: sight, smell, etc about the outside world makes "sense" ha. But using those same senses as an Si? I mean what do they do see/smell/hear themselves internally? Does anyone really do that?

I guess I am thinking of these cognitive functions very literally right now which is why it's confusing.

Intuition Ni vs Ne... I have instincts that I am aware of and they pertain to what I've seen in my life and own vs I have instincts about the world around me? How does that work? How can you have instincts that are more internal or external?

Te and Ti makes sense to me.
Fi and Fe make sense to me as well.
But those others are like.. what?

And the hierarchy of what you place more value in only adds to the confusion lol.
 
#27 ·
Socionics is different from MBTI. That's right.

Anyway, my sister is an ESFJ and we used to hate each other. But now, after years of trying to understand each other, we become kind of friends. It seems that we communicate in different language and we need to spend a long time together to get close. I wonder if anyone have the same experience?
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
huiwcleon said:
Socionics is different from MBTI. That's right.

Anyway, my sister is an ESFJ and we used to hate each other. But now, after years of trying to understand each other, we become kind of friends. It seems that we communicate in different language and we need to spend a long time together to get close. I wonder if anyone have the same experience?
Click to expand...
That sounds like me and MY sister too! She is INTJ. We are getting along a lot better these days and I find that I'm actually closer to her and trust her more than my other siblings and even my parents now. I feel like we finally "get" each other and it works out really well. **Side note: she actually says she tested ISTJ, but I know better... lol She definitely an out of the box thinker, multi-tasker, and also very good at interior design and molecular and cellular biology. Lol
 
#30 ·
My middle sister is an ESFJ. I find most of the things she talks about to be vapid and shallow, but as I grow older I can respect her for being able to maintain an incredibly happy persona through all adversity. She's a relatively positive influence on my life, though living with her through college proved to be a chore.

Overall, I think a friendship with an ESFJ is ideal, from my own experiences. I cannot even begin to fathom the idea of being in a relationship with a man with a similar mentality. It would drive me insane. But great to hang out with for breaking me out of my comfort zone (I'm careful with the phrasing here because if I used the word routine, well that would be a false statement since I don't have a very routine life).
 
#31 ·
MelissaC said:
Yeah, you nailed it. I didn't mention the shallow thing because I didn't want to offend, but that was definitely an issue. As an INTJ it was a nice reprieve every once in a while, but we (I'm assuming it's a general INTJ thing) need someone who is at least capable of connecting on our level. Being able to quote every line from every movie you've seen, while impressive, is not exactly up to par for us intellectually.
Click to expand...
Ouch. I hope I'm just misunderstanding you, but just because we can easily engage in small talk doesn't mean we ESFJs are unintellectual or shallow about our interests, or that our interests are shallow (I don't know how quoting lines from movies is supposedly an ESFJ interest.) I work in biological research and see plenty of ESFJs working side by side with INTJs. Our interest in our work is no less deep or meaningful than theirs, and we find the same research topics fascinating, so I don't know where this intellectual difference you're talking about is coming from. Can you please clarify how exactly we are not "up to par with you intellectually"?
 
#32 ·
lenabelle said:
Ouch. I hope I'm just misunderstanding you, but just because we can easily engage in small talk doesn't mean we ESFJs are unintellectual or shallow about our interests, or that our interests are shallow (I don't know how quoting lines from movies is supposedly an ESFJ interest.) I work in biological research and see plenty of ESFJs working side by side with INTJs. Our interest in our work is no less deep or meaningful than theirs, and we find the same research topics fascinating, so I don't know where this intellectual difference you're talking about is coming from. Can you please clarify how exactly we are not "up to par with you intellectually"?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, I didn't mean it as badly as it came across. The "movie quote" thing was a moment of bitterness against a single ESFJ coming out.
I'm new to typing people, so I can't say I've pegged every single ESFJ I've met. I know one for sure, and I pretty certain about another one. The first was the movie quote guy. I didn't mean to insinuate that he's as dumb as a Jersey Shore cast member. He is intelligent, but in a different way than I am. He's intelligent in a more...concrete way. Having trouble explaining this. We're both in the medical field. He's a paramedic, and I'm a a nurse. He works in an ER with me. I trust his clinical judgment implicitly. If he comes up to me and says, "Hey, you better go take a look at room 15. Take some fluids with you, I have a line started," you can bet your ass I'm heading straight to room 15. He's fantastic with snap judgments, with sensing deteriorations before they happen. He's also taught me a number of things. He's by no means stupid. But outside of emergency medicine and firefighting, there's not much knowledge to share outside of "small talk" type things. He stays light, whereas I delve so deeply into things I become crushed beneath them. And "shallow" was perhaps a mean way of noting the importance he places on aesthetics. How things look and appear is a big deal to him.
The other possible ESFJ is an attending I work with, whom I adore. He can diagnose a rare disease within 3 minutes bedside, then will take me and some residents into the room and make a game out of seeing if we'll guess it. He's like a laughing, smiling, friendly House. But in conversation outside of medicine he talks mostly of his latest trip to Vegas, or his Harley. It just seems like ESFJs get highly focused in one or two directions intellectually and surround those interests with this amazingly endearing, friendly fluff....whereas I fiercely intellectualize everthing.
 
#33 ·
MelissaC said:
But outside of emergency medicine and firefighting, there's not much knowledge to share outside of "small talk" type things. He stays light, whereas I delve so deeply into things I become crushed beneath them. And "shallow" was perhaps a mean way of noting the importance he places on aesthetics. How things look and appear is a big deal to him.
The other possible ESFJ is an attending I work with, whom I adore. He can diagnose a rare disease within 3 minutes bedside, then will take me and some residents into the room and make a game out of seeing if we'll guess it. He's like a laughing, smiling, friendly House. But in conversation outside of medicine he talks mostly of his latest trip to Vegas, or his Harley. It just seems like ESFJs get highly focused in one or two directions intellectually and surround those interests with this amazingly endearing, friendly fluff....whereas I fiercely intellectualize everthing.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the explanation! I know you didn't mean your words to be taken that way, so no hard feelings. :)

Just going to throw this out there, as I've never met these people myself, but maybe there's more to them than they let on. For me, at least, I have a hard time opening up about deep things to co-workers. I just don't feel like it's appropriate at work to discuss anything besides work or something breezy and light. If I need to break the ice, I'll talk about topics like a new TV show I like or vacation plans, but I back away from things that would involve me expressing a potentially controversial opinion of mine that could potentially interfere with my working relationship with others. My INFP co-worker and INTP boss will both go on long rants sometimes about how the country is going to pot or the injustice of this or that, and I never chime in because it just makes me uncomfortable to talk about things like this in a work setting. Those are things I discuss mainly with friends and family, and occasionally other people outside of work. I'm not really sure if this is an ESFJ thing or my own personal quirk, but it could be an explanation as for their behavior, and why us ESFJs just like small talk in general. Gotta play it safe, haha.

As for getting focused in one or two directions intellectually, I guess I can agree with this observation. When something interests me, I'll make it my mission to learn everything about it, almost to the point of obsession, but if it doesn't interest me, I won't even care to glance at it. This means I have a lot of depth of knowledge of certain topics, but not a lot of breadth.
 
#34 ·
ESFJs are remarkably uncomplicated--sometimes a refreshing break from the deep seriousness of the INTJ. They are good "connectors;" my ESFJ supervisor at work is good at getting all types of people involved in a conversation. But they can be frustrating--when my ESFJ sister and I get together, her idea of "bonding" is to talk or go shopping. She also has this interesting habit of pretending to be the dumb blonde, even when I know, deep down, that she isn't.
 
#36 ·
lenabelle said:
Thanks for the explanation! I know you didn't mean your words to be taken that way, so no hard feelings. :)

Just going to throw this out there, as I've never met these people myself, but maybe there's more to them than they let on. For me, at least, I have a hard time opening up about deep things to co-workers. I just don't feel like it's appropriate at work to discuss anything besides work or something breezy and light. If I need to break the ice, I'll talk about topics like a new TV show I like or vacation plans, but I back away from things that would involve me expressing a potentially controversial opinion of mine that could potentially interfere with my working relationship with others. My INFP co-worker and INTP boss will both go on long rants sometimes about how the country is going to pot or the injustice of this or that, and I never chime in because it just makes me uncomfortable to talk about things like this in a work setting. Those are things I discuss mainly with friends and family, and occasionally other people outside of work. I'm not really sure if this is an ESFJ thing or my own personal quirk, but it could be an explanation as for their behavior, and why us ESFJs just like small talk in general. Gotta play it safe, haha.

As for getting focused in one or two directions intellectually, I guess I can agree with this observation. When something interests me, I'll make it my mission to learn everything about it, almost to the point of obsession, but if it doesn't interest me, I won't even care to glance at it. This means I have a lot of depth of knowledge of certain topics, but not a lot of breadth.
Click to expand...
I'm sure there's more to them. They may be "just coworkers" but we're more of a family in the ER. When you're around death and craziness and drunks and gaping wounds and rancid vaginas all day there's not much need to fill voids with "small talk". A lot of bullshit gets cut out, societal niceties and the like. A place like that draws like-minded people when it comes to controversial subjects...for example, you'd be hard-pressed to find a diehard Republican working in an emergency room. ER people tend to run a bit on the wild side, and those who aren't are very understanding and forgiving of us heathens. What I'm getting at is that I know them better than most people know their coworkers. Especially movie quote guy, obviously.

You were right on with your depth vs breadth with intellectual topics and the ESFJs I know. The fluff that surrounds those topics is incredibly shallow (pop culture, motorcycles, etc), but they have immense emotional depth...which I don't. So yes, there's more to them--much more--emotionally, but we're on different levels as far as intelligence goes. Not better or worse per se, just different.
 
#37 ·
I generally liked male ESFJ's as companions, because they were light-hearted and friendly. But when it comes down to relationships, I could never stand ESFJ women. I never really enjoyed their personality traits. I don't personally believe that Socionics duality is accurate, whereas the MBTI duality hits it spot on.

Sensory-intuitive relationships generally have something missing from what I've experienced and observed. I understand there are some who claim it works well and they've done well in those N/S partnerships, but it isn't apparent to me.

ESFJ's often came off as nagging, controlling, compulsive, unimaginative, rule-driven, and prude to me. I've met quite a few in my day and this was the general consensus I reached. I'm sure some are more open-minded and pleasant, but I have not met those outliers.

On terms of cognitive functions, I can not appreciate them too much. I am generally attracted to first-order Ne and Ni users and could never understand the ESFJ's Fe appeal.

I have seen two INTJ/ESFJ relationships. One long-term (30+ years of marriage) and one short-term (my friend's 6 month relationship with an ESFJ male). Both had the following in common: ESFJ often wears out the INTJ with their emotions and domineering/suffocating appeal to control, INTJ can not hold meaningful conversations for too long with an ESFJ as they can not attain the same level of thought or perspective (even with a very open-minded and perceptive INTJ that is willing to elaborate and think far outside the box), INTJ's do not understand the ESFJ's consistent observatory and grounded demands, INTJ needs someone free-spirited and oriented on seeking something new (Ne = ENTP/ENFP), ESFJ's need someone on the same level of intellect and imaginative perspective (probably ISTP/ISFP), and the dual-judging orientation just makes the couple very... sensible and conservative (for lack of a better adjective).

Overall: I do not think this is an ideal couple. ESFJ's can make fun companions and work acquaintances for an INTJ, but they eventually get on one another's nerves unless they have some kind of relationship glue and spark that is uncommon.
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
Antichrist said:
I generally liked male ESFJ's as companions, because they were light-hearted and friendly. But when it comes down to relationships, I could never stand ESFJ women. I never really enjoyed their personality traits. I don't personally believe that Socionics duality is accurate, whereas the MBTI duality hits it spot on.

Sensory-intuitive relationships generally have something missing from what I've experienced and observed. I understand there are some who claim it works well and they've done well in those N/S partnerships, but it isn't apparent to me.

ESFJ's often came off as nagging, controlling, compulsive, unimaginative, rule-driven, and prude to me. I've met quite a few in my day and this was the general consensus I reached. I'm sure some are more open-minded and pleasant, but I have not met those outliers.

On terms of cognitive functions, I can not appreciate them too much. I am generally attracted to first-order Ne and Ni users and could never understand the ESFJ's Fe appeal.

I have seen two INTJ/ESFJ relationships. One long-term (30+ years of marriage) and one short-term (my friend's 6 month relationship with an ESFJ male). Both had the following in common: ESFJ often wears out the INTJ with their emotions and domineering/suffocating appeal to control, INTJ can not hold meaningful conversations for too long with an ESFJ as they can not attain the same level of thought or perspective (even with a very open-minded and perceptive INTJ that is willing to elaborate and think far outside the box), INTJ's do not understand the ESFJ's consistent observatory and grounded demands, INTJ needs someone free-spirited and oriented on seeking something new (Ne = ENTP/ENFP), ESFJ's need someone on the same level of intellect and imaginative perspective (probably ISTP/ISFP), and the dual-judging orientation just makes the couple very... sensible and conservative (for lack of a better adjective).

Overall: I do not think this is an ideal couple. ESFJ's can make fun companions and work acquaintances for an INTJ, but they eventually get on one another's nerves unless they have some kind of relationship glue and spark that is uncommon.
Click to expand...
What about an ESFJ who has a very well-developed Ne? :) Ever met one?
 
#40 ·
21 - 40 of 46 Posts
About this Discussion
45 Replies
24 Participants
Last post:
IniquitousMuse
Personality Cafe
posts
11M
members
172K
Since
2008
A forum community dedicated to all ranges of personality types and people. Come join the discussion about health, behavior, care, testing, personality types, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
INFP Forum - The Idealists INFJ Forum - The Protectors INTP Forum - The Thinkers INTJ Forum - The Scientists Myers Briggs Forum