Personality Cafe banner
1 - 20 of 43 Posts

AbioticPrime

· Banned
Joined
·
2,627 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 ·
I can't seem to make the connections, so I'm asking someone else to help me make it :tongue:.

ILE-Ne seems to fit like a glove, as does the ENTJ description in MBTI.

I can agree with some points of ENTP, as well as some points of ENTj (socionics).

I'm not sure if I'm mistyping in one or the other, or if I'm truly ENTp in socionics ENTJ in mbti.

If that is the case.. how would that function? Considering ILE leads with Ne while ENTJ leads with Te and each others' strongest functions are the others' shadows.
 
Yeah, Im INFP in MBTI and probably EIE in socionics, the only other possiblity being IEI. Both EIE and INFP fit me, Im not sure how it works out either but the way I explain it is that the description of the functions is different in each system. For instance black ethics in socionics sounds alot like Fe in MBTI, but white intuition sounds nothing like Ni. Fi sounds different then white ethics, whereas Ne sounds alot like black intuition. With that, I've reached the conclusion its best not to mix the two together.
 
I can't seem to make the connections, so I'm asking someone else to help me make it :tongue:.

ILE-Ne seems to fit like a glove, as does the ENTJ description in MBTI.

I can agree with some points of ENTP, as well as some points of ENTj (socionics).

I'm not sure if I'm mistyping in one or the other, or if I'm truly ENTp in socionics ENTJ in mbti.

If that is the case.. how would that function? Considering ILE leads with Ne while ENTJ leads with Te and each others' strongest functions are the others' shadows.
You should take a look at MBTI functions and Socionics information elements for typing yourself.
Trying to type yourself by fitting yourself into the profiles is generally a poor method for typing.

Socionics ENTj values Te, Ni, Se, Fi while ENTp values Ti, Ne, Si, Fe. So these are very different types. These types are known as quasi-identicals -- they share many surface similarities while being nothing alike in their cognitive layout. Since they can look very similar at first glance, very often people who don't research the types carefully mistype between the two.
 
With that said also, the way the MBTI operates often causes these kind of hiccups for many reasons. I'd also separate between Jungian type and MBTI type. I don't see them necessarily as the same. If you know your Jungian type, you are most likely the same type in socionics, however.
 
Though the theories do define the functions/IM elements differently (as they are in fact viewing them at very different angles), I would say that they are generally describing the same cognitive phenomena and thus the process Ne is roughly the same in both systems, regardless of how "the descriptions sound". Same for other functions. Indeed, the function/type descriptions you read may paint very different pictures across the two theories, but archetypes aren't really the strength of either theory, and in a lot of cases I think lists of attributes should be ignored in favor of the systematic insight the theories give.

Where functions in MBTI are more focused on "how" cognitive processes manifest, Socionics IM elements center around the types of information each element deals with. Very different perspectives, but ultimately descriptive of the same processes in the brain. So although you may relate to type descriptions for these two very opposed types in each respective theory, you should note that because they are coming at the topic from very different angles, type descriptions can make types appear as similar for viewing the types in their respective ways.

It's certainly interesting, but I think it is best to dismiss the notion that you can be fundamentally different types across theories "because the functions are different". If you were truly both an ENTJ and an ENTp, then MBTI's system (and I'm not talking about the test... I mean the Western Jungian system in general) would have to be seeing components of your psyche that are entirely delineated from what Socionics is seeing, such that you actually do have both the cognitive function processes for the ENTJ in the part that MBTI "looks at" and the IM elements in the part that Socionics "looks at". And frankly that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd advise really reading up on how each system works and trying to examine which theory gives you more insight into the actual patterns of your cognition.

All of this is my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. If you want to think you're both types, and this works for you and you feel like it actually helps you understand yourself better, I'm in no place to judge -- their subjective use is where the strength of these personality theories lies. I would simply prefer to see the two theories as operating in the same scope.
 
Though the theories do define the functions/IM elements differently (as they are in fact viewing them at very different angles), I would say that they are generally describing the same cognitive phenomena and thus the process Ne is roughly the same in both systems, regardless of how "the descriptions sound". Same for other functions. Indeed, the function/type descriptions you read may paint very different pictures across the two theories, but archetypes aren't really the strength of either theory, and in a lot of cases I think lists of attributes should be ignored in favor of the systematic insight the theories give.

Where functions in MBTI are more focused on "how" cognitive processes manifest, Socionics IM elements center around the types of information each element deals with. Very different perspectives, but ultimately descriptive of the same processes in the brain. So although you may relate to type descriptions for these two very opposed types in each respective theory, you should note that because they are coming at the topic from very different angles, type descriptions can make types appear as similar for viewing the types in their respective ways.

It's certainly interesting, but I think it is best to dismiss the notion that you can be fundamentally different types across theories "because the functions are different". If you were truly both an ENTJ and an ENTp, then MBTI's system (and I'm not talking about the test... I mean the Western Jungian system in general) would have to be seeing components of your psyche that are entirely delineated from what Socionics is seeing, such that you actually do have both the cognitive function processes for the ENTJ in the part that MBTI "looks at" and the IM elements in the part that Socionics "looks at". And frankly that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd advise really reading up on how each system works and trying to examine which theory gives you more insight into the actual patterns of your cognition.

All of this is my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. If you want to think you're both types, and this works for you and you feel like it actually helps you understand yourself better, I'm in no place to judge -- their subjective use is where the strength of these personality theories lies. I would simply prefer to see the two theories as operating in the same scope.
This is why I think it's useful to actually separate the MBTI from Jungian personality theory as the MBTI is clearly something different to what Jung intended in many ways. I find the problem is that people fail to realize the delineation between the two which is why it's possible to be two different types in the systems because MBTI does not treat type the same way Jung does. I also think Abraxas wrote a beautiful post about cognitive development and function differentiation which explains the overlaps well as well.

Essentially, one's MBTI type is found when taking a test and reading up on the profiles and deciding which one fits you the best. While the MBTI does utilize the functions, the order and type itself are constructs made by Myers-Briggs. Jung only spoke about the dominant ego function e.g. Te dom. It's also perfectly possible to be Ne-Te for example, and still be ENTP. What thus separates ENTP from ENTJ is thus Te-Ne versus Ne-Te.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Though the theories do define the functions/IM elements differently (as they are in fact viewing them at very different angles), I would say that they are generally describing the same cognitive phenomena and thus the process Ne is roughly the same in both systems, regardless of how "the descriptions sound". Same for other functions. Indeed, the function/type descriptions you read may paint very different pictures across the two theories, but archetypes aren't really the strength of either theory, and in a lot of cases I think lists of attributes should be ignored in favor of the systematic insight the theories give.

Where functions in MBTI are more focused on "how" cognitive processes manifest, Socionics IM elements center around the types of information each element deals with. Very different perspectives, but ultimately descriptive of the same processes in the brain. So although you may relate to type descriptions for these two very opposed types in each respective theory, you should note that because they are coming at the topic from very different angles, type descriptions can make types appear as similar for viewing the types in their respective ways.

It's certainly interesting, but I think it is best to dismiss the notion that you can be fundamentally different types across theories "because the functions are different". If you were truly both an ENTJ and an ENTp, then MBTI's system (and I'm not talking about the test... I mean the Western Jungian system in general) would have to be seeing components of your psyche that are entirely delineated from what Socionics is seeing, such that you actually do have both the cognitive function processes for the ENTJ in the part that MBTI "looks at" and the IM elements in the part that Socionics "looks at". And frankly that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd advise really reading up on how each system works and trying to examine which theory gives you more insight into the actual patterns of your cognition.

All of this is my personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. If you want to think you're both types, and this works for you and you feel like it actually helps you understand yourself better, I'm in no place to judge -- their subjective use is where the strength of these personality theories lies. I would simply prefer to see the two theories as operating in the same scope.
Yes, this is a great description of my thoughts / doubts.

The only thing is, it's difficult to imagine a world where certain groups of people only strictly use one set of functions while others use another. The way I've always seen it is we all use all functions at different frequencies, and we subjectively try to quantify which ones we use more frequently and then pin a type crown on that tooth. I suspect that I have some blend of Ne/Ni/Te/Ti and phase between the two types, but my general pattern of behavior is best described by MBTI ENTJ / Soc ENTp.

I can catch myself quite frequently switching from Ti to Te mode and vice versa.
 
My understanding of Socionics is that Extraverts generally are the same type there as they are in MBTI. I am a solid ENTP/ENTp.

 
Yes, this is a great description of my thoughts / doubts.

The only thing is, it's difficult to imagine a world where certain groups of people only strictly use one set of functions while others use another. The way I've always seen it is we all use all functions at different frequencies, and we subjectively try to quantify which ones we use more frequently and then pin a type crown on that tooth. I suspect that I have some blend of Ne/Ni/Te/Ti and phase between the two types, but my general pattern of behavior is best described by MBTI ENTJ / Soc ENTp.

I can catch myself quite frequently switching from Ti to Te mode and vice versa.
In an empirical sense, there is of course less rigidity in function order and composition, in that there isn't exactly a part of the brain that controls "Ti" and some other part that controls "Te" and another part that covers "Ni", and so on. However, it has been seen that a person's type and thus function order is reflected in part in brain activity, in that certain patterns exist for certain combinations of functions, with an important note that, for example, an ESTJ's and an ENTJ's brain activity aren't going to be as congruent as you might think with the dominant Te, because it really does matter what the other functions are. So in practice, it isn't as rigid as we might think, but there are demonstrable patterns that correlate with function preference hierarchies (see Dario Nardi's research for more).

However, I will always say that this isn't cause for us to throw out the very insightful systematic understanding of function order we get from either Western writings or Socionics' Model A. I think what gives the theory strength is its internal consistency and in some ways its rigidity. Because while I don't actually believe that every INTP/LII has the exact same cognitive processes that are clearly delineated in the brain as being some sort of "Ti, then Ne, then Si, then Fe" hierarchy, I think that using such as a model is very useful for examining what kind of information is involved and how it is processed. I will also note that I don't much believe in the idea of "Oh, I'm thinking about abstract topics, so I must be using Ti now" vs "Oh, now I'm thinking about the practical application of my ideas, so now I'm in Te mode" because such would imply that the cognitive process that is Ti is incapable of doing what Te does, or vice versa. I wouldn't even say that you "need" any specific function to complete a task, like Ni to visualize future likelihoods or Fe to be emotionally expressive. Whatever thinking function you have is still capable of thinking in a different way -- it just might not be your natural orientation, or your focus, or your strength. That's why I prefer Socionics' model of IM elements as determining what kinds of information you naturally tend towards, rather than what processes you're "capable" of using (and in their order of competence, to boot).

Indeed, if you examine the 8 function roles in Socionics' Model A, you'll find that an ENTJ posesses Ti and Ne in its Super-Id function block, indicating that though the ENTJ may be familiar with the two elements and be moderately proficient in their use, they do not prioritize them and at times ignore or marginalize the information that these elements are mainly concerned with.
 
Extroverts
MBTI systemSocionics system
ENFJENFj
ENTJENTj
ENFPENFp
ENTPENTp
ESFJESFj
ESTJESTj
ESFPESFp
ESTPESTp

Introverts
MBTI systemSocionics system
INFJINFx
INTJINTx
INFPINFx
INTPINTx
ISFJISFx
ISTJISTx
ISFPISFx
ISTPISTx




How to convert MBTI® type to Socionics type
Yes and no. I'm an INTP in MBTI but INFj in socionics, so the chart you provided still doesn't get it right. A friend of mine types as MBTI ISTP (she got it on a test and the profile kind of fits her) but I know for a fact that in socionics she's an IEE-Fi subtype. Which again goes to say, it's not that simple. You got three ways to type: MBTI, Jungian type and sociotype. Jungian type and sociotype are the most similar to each other because they use a similar framework and goal to explain the personality type phenomenon. In MBTI, the goal was to sort people into effective work groups based on what you were best at and what you preferred. I have to purposefully jinx an MBTI test to get something else than INTP. In contrast, my Jungian type is probably less unclear as I'm mostly just a Ji-N-S-Je type, but I think I in general lie closer to Fi-Te than Ti-Fe in terms of personal preferences. In socionics it's clear I'm EII since that's the interaction I prefer.
 
Yes and no. I'm an INTP in MBTI but INFj in socionics, so the chart you provided still doesn't get it right. A friend of mine types as MBTI ISTP (she got it on a test and the profile kind of fits her) but I know for a fact that in socionics she's an IEE-Fi subtype. Which again goes to say, it's not that simple. You got three ways to type: MBTI, Jungian type and sociotype. Jungian type and sociotype are the most similar to each other because they use a similar framework and goal to explain the personality type phenomenon. In MBTI, the goal was to sort people into effective work groups based on what you were best at and what you preferred. I have to purposefully jinx an MBTI test to get something else than INTP. In contrast, my Jungian type is probably less unclear as I'm mostly just a Ji-N-S-Je type, but I think I in general lie closer to Fi-Te than Ti-Fe in terms of personal preferences. In socionics it's clear I'm EII since that's the interaction I prefer.
Maybe. Did you read the article attached to that chart? I claim no expertise in Socionics. It seems alien to me because it is so heavily Eurocentric. A great deal of the literature is also highly academic and has not been well translated into English.
 
However, it has been seen that a person's type and thus function order is reflected in part in brain activity, in that certain patterns exist for certain combinations of functions, with an important note that, for example, an ESTJ's and an ENTJ's brain activity aren't going to be as congruent as you might think with the dominant Te, because it really does matter what the other functions are. So in practice, it isn't as rigid as we might think, but there are demonstrable patterns that correlate with function preference hierarchies (see Dario Nardi's research for more).
User:Aestrivex/essays/dario nardi - WSWiki

I just wrote this beacuse the pervasive belief that Dario Nardi does useful research is a serious blight on this community, and it would be nice to have a good response that I can link rather than just saying *headdesk.* So I apologize for the poor formatting, I will fix it up a bit in time.
 
Maybe. Did you read the article attached to that chart? I claim no expertise in Socionics. It seems alien to me because it is so heavily Eurocentric. A great deal of the literature is also highly academic and has not been well translated into English.
No, although it makes me wonder why you mentioned it if you haven't looked into it that much yourself lol.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
-MBTI: E(44%) N(77%) T(66%) J(1%)- ehhh what? 1% J is making you a J?
Are you kidding? Or are you that simple-minded? Should I spell things out for you?

You really think I'd make the conclusion of being J because some online assessment put me as 1% J?
 
I am most assuredly an ENFP and tested as IEI on socionics. Now I'm rather new to it all but both types fit me to a T. To me it feels more like the ENFP is more outwardly and the IEI is more inwardly.. If that makes sense (o.o)
 
I am most assuredly an ENFP and tested as IEI on socionics. Now I'm rather new to it all but both types fit me to a T. To me it feels more like the ENFP is more outwardly and the IEI is more inwardly.. If that makes sense (o.o)
ENFPs have Ne,Fi while IEIs have Ni,Fe and otherwise they share no functions in common so there is something wrong here.

Go with ENFP =P if you were IEI you would feel this internal illogic and inconsistency with Ti. IEIs have mobilizing Ti and are sensitive to logical inconsistencies but you don't seem to mind it.
 
1 - 20 of 43 Posts