Emotional Incest & INFJs as Counselors

Sour Roses · May 11, 2017

So this thread is about "Emotional Incest" (completely non-sexual).

As natural Counselors... do you think INFJ children are more likely to experience this dynamic?

Jungian analyst and author Marion Woodman describes covert incest as "unboundaried bonding" in which the parent or parents use the child as a mirror to support their needs, rather than mirroring the child in support of the child's emotional development.

When children are put in the position of meeting the emotional needs of a parent, it creates an unhealthy dynamic in which children essentially become the parents.

Emotional Incest: When Parents Make Their Kids Partners

A few thoughts of mine are, that it may be quite possible for there to be levels of severity for this dynamic.

Also, it may at times be partly due to the childs inborn nature as well.
If your kid is only happy when they know everything that's going on and they seek that level of authority that comes with the territory, it doesn't seem to me to be an easy thing for a parent in emotional turmoil to fend off the one person who's seemingly on their team.

So what do you think of this issue in relation to INFJ kids? Do you think it's more likely?

If you were (or are!) parenting an INFJ (or ENFJ!) child, what are some practical ways you would work to prevent counselor kids from becoming too involved with adult emotions?

Vivid Melody · May 11, 2017

As natural Counselors... do you think INFJ children are more likely to experience this dynamic?
I don't know, but I know I sure did when it came to my mom. I learned pretty early on (around 9 or 10) that I couldn't trust my mom with any of my "secrets" though I badly wanted to share them with her. She would always threaten to humiliate me whenever I shared them. She thought she was protecting me, but she wasn't. So I just got really good at never sharing anything with her.

In my teens, I remember she would turn to me and my siblings as her psuedo husbands because her marriage with my dad was never good. It was always rocky. I didn't like my dad very much at the time either so whenever my mom would vent to me about him, it wasn't hard to support her there. I do tend to naturally take on the role of counselor so I like guiding people and helping them. My INFP younger brother mainly acted as a listener. He doesn't really play the guide. So I guess she felt supported in that way by him as well. I'm not sure how much my ESFJ older sister had a role because I know my sister was always at odds with my mom and resented her deep down.

I always felt this need to protect my mom from my dad's emotional abuse. She is very child-like and grew up in an abusive household. She struggled with deep depression after coming to terms with abuse and all that. So I guess I developed an unhealthy savior complex from all of that.

I can vividly remember this one time when I was especially being there to support her (she was in a low place) and my dad had a rare moment of being loving/guiding towards her. I remember feeling oddly jealous and enraged in that moment - like oh, he's playing Nice Guy now. And then I remember feeling disgusted that I felt those things when in reality, it was not appropriate for me to play that role in her life. It was like a sudden wake up call. I just didn't know what to do about it or how to change my feelings at the time. Her emotional well being was my responsibility and I felt proud of it. And when that becomes the primary way of bonding because she's not capable of being an actual parent to me....it's like well shit, I have to give this up now too because it's not healthy? It sucked realizing that over and over again. You never stop wanting/needing your parents to be parents. All that to say, this stuff with my parents is resolved within me these days and I am over it.

So what do you think of this issue in relation to INFJ kids? Do you think it's more likely?
I wouldn't be surprised if it's more common in INFJ or just in NF children in general.

If you were (or are!) parenting an INFJ (or ENFJ!) child, what are some practical ways you would work to prevent counselor kids from becoming too involved with adult emotions?
I'm not a parent but based on my experience I guess the best thing a parent can do is have the proper adult support they need in place. In my situation it happened due to my parents crumbling marriage and although my mom had a counselor at the time, she's the type of person who will seek out as much emotional support she can get. She's a type 2 ESFJ. So it depends on the individual's needs as well.

lizw47 · May 11, 2017

I don't want to delve too much into my childhood experience, but I didn't have the best childhood growing up and I was definitely the "parent" of the whole situation. =/

Zosio · May 11, 2017

I know that it's recently been the case with my mother (ENFP).

I love my mother, I really do. The worst attributes I can give her is that she can be somewhat self-absorbed and detached, and she also jumps to weird conclusions about things and has a hard time letting those conclusions go. She would get "hunches" about problems I potentially had as a kid, and she would investigate it so thoroughly that it would leave me contemplating issues I never even had. A couple hunches of interest were 1) that I was bisexual or lesbian because of the similarities in personality to my lesbian aunt -- who's probably an ENTP -- and 2) that I had been sexually abused as a child and was refusing to tell anyone. Neither of those things were true, but she spent so long thinking that they were that she ended up "impressing" them on me in a weird way.

To current and/or potential parents: Do not do this to your kid.

I never really felt like I belonged with my family. I was very much the black-sheep middle child (my mother and two youngest siblings are the only Ns in the family, and the siblings are only just now getting to be the age when I can really get to know them), and like any INFJ, the incessant sense of being the odd one out was a major thorn in my side. I desperately wanted to fit in and connect with my family on a deeper level, but it just didn't happen. The older I got, the more I learned to live and let live. Now that I'm married and out of the house, my family complains that I don't come to see them or keep in contact as often as I should. The trouble is, frankly, I have little incentive to.

That being said, my mother uses a lot of, to be blunt, childish manipulation tactics to get what she wants. I told her once that I couldn't come to a get-together with her and my sisters because I had been doing work and college full time, and I had three different mid-term projects due. She called me, crying, and basically didn't stop until I relented and told her that I would go. Because of this, I had to stay up till 1:00am doing one of those projects and had to go to work at 5:30am. I explained that to her, but she didn't care. She just had to get what she wanted, and she didn't snap back into functioning adult mode until she did.

So that's when I start to feel like the parent. :dry:

AppleJackzO · May 11, 2017

I really thought this was normal...

I was just saying to myself that it sucks that I always have to be the mature one when it comes to my mom and me. That's probably why I gravitate towards older women. I'm trying to find a mother figure (or a big sister as I call it in my head) Such is life. I think 95% of her issue is my dad is a bad husband. *shrug* The other 5% is her mom wasn't a good mother.

lavendersnow · May 11, 2017

I agree with everyone above, especially @Vivid Melody's answer.

I definitely felt I could not confide in my parents, especially my mother, growing up. I remember vividly that every deep personal thought, I kept to myself naturally anyway. But when I wanted to trust my mother with an idea or view I had, like something as trivial but potentially embarrassing as my first crush - she told everyone she knew within a day. No matter what she's told, no matter how big or small - she will let everyone know.

And I do mean everyone.

She told them his name, where he lived, every word I'd said, how I felt about him - it was infuriating and at that super young age, you should be able to feel like you can confide in people that close to you. But I couldn't. I remember feeling torn - I'd never felt betrayed by my mother before and I loved her, but she continued to make the same mistake over and over again. And I only gave her second chances because I didn't want her to feel shut out.

No matter how low I've felt, I keep it to myself. Even when I've considered suicide on a daily basis or considered getting checked into a facility.

So when things got more serious, and I started developing mental health issues as a child - my mother, again, would let everyone know my entire medical history as it unfolded. I would tell her something, not because I wanted to, but had to as she was the only person available to sign doctor's papers or take me to appointments etc. and she would betray my trust every single time. Immediately after I would tell her something, she'd go on the phone and blab to her friends. Like, within half an hour.

I felt humiliated. However, I know that my mother has boundary issues with all people this way.

She has no concept of 'secrets' or 'sensitive information'. It's even caused a rift between her and my father because if he, on very rare occasions, tells her how he feels about something, she'll tell everyone she knows immediately. She is a gossip but doesn't think she is. I think I rationalise it by thinking this is how she deals with stressful thoughts or things she's been told - she must talk about them out loud. But it's completely inappropriate.

My parents definitely use me as their counselors. They were quite normal about it when I was a kid - not telling me information I shouldn't know. But the minute I became a teen, I served as their confidant in everything. They put me in between their fights constantly now - asking whose side I'm going to take, who is in the right...it's not my marriage. I shouldn't have to tell them that they're both wrong constantly.

Having two SFJ parents is a nightmare - they both always think they are right and are extremely stubborn, even when they clearly know they are wrong. They're also painfully manipulative yet hate to be manipulated.

It does seem this is very common for INFJs, which is unfortunate. Children should not be made to counsel their parents, it's emotionally taxing and distressing. I would say it's probably more common with NFJs rather than NFPs.

lizw47 · May 11, 2017

Thank you so much to everybody who has shared their stories. It takes so much courage to discuss these things, things that are so private and so sensitive. Thank you for being brave enough to share them.

You went through some difficult things as a child, and as a child you were in a position where you couldn't always control what happened to you. And even though life kept throwing obstacles at you, you kept going forward and pressing on anyway -- you are a fighter!

Please know that your history does not define your future. Even though craziness may have happened in your childhood, now that you are older you have the opportunities to live life on your own terms. Go out and live life like you always wanted to.

xoxoxo

Firemoon · May 11, 2017

Yes, I had always been the "parent" in my family, both my father and my mother were chaotic.

My father unconsciously consider me as his mother AND his romantic partner because my mother would reject his desires (he's an alcoholic, no wonder why my mother is disgusted) and I was the only person to offer him my compassion in the family.

Sadly, our relationship was/is really unhealthy. But I was too young, empathetic and scared to realize what he has done to me. It's really hard to talk about that, but I can suggest that INFJs might feel the urge to be supportive to their parents to the point of hurting themselves in the process.

Snowflake Minuet · May 12, 2017

I haven't personally had an experience with this, I've been very fortunate to have wonderful parents. However, I do think INFJ children could be more susceptible to this situation of becoming the "parent," so to speak. Being so private and naturally all-concerned with the (especially emotional/mental) well-being of others, loved ones in particular, I think it would be all to easy for an INFJ child to tuck "themselves" away and put all their energy in caring for others if they feel it's needed. It seems like a very natural thing for INFJs to pick up responsibility. Even in kindergarten I believe I had teachers who called me sort of an "old soul," and there definitely have been situations, mostly outside of family, where I became the adult of the situation in a way, even when I was very young.

Marvin the Dendroid · May 12, 2017

I did like helping my mum with chores as a kid, but neither she nor I seek/need others or their help much. She did a great job as a parent in her own nice and emotionally independent way, and if she ever struggled, she kept it to herself. I'm sure she must have, with nine kids and a dick of a husband (although a reliable and good provider, and maybe he hasn't been that much of a dick to her).

She doesn't show any negative emotions she may feel, deals with them on her own somewhere in her subconscious mind and goes about life in her quiet and always nice if somewhat detached manner. Which is pretty much what I do as well.

Crimson Ash · May 12, 2017

I've always felt like an adult in some ways during my childhood. I frequently remember instances when I was as young as 10 advising and making decisions on behalf of myself and/or my parents that shouldn't have been my full decision to make.

I never really connected it to me being INFJ though it makes sense now. I have wasted too many days of my life being counselor to parents that should have been helping me instead.

Not only was I a mirror though but I was always held responsible for my decision making, thereby exonerating my parents from any responsibility in their perspective. Definitely a disturbing childhood when reflected upon.

This also connected with how my parents raised my older sibling as well. I was essentially considered the more mature one and even though my sibling was quite a few years older than me I was held responsible or at fault in almost all cases of their wrongdoing.

Personally I would go about it in two ways. First the extended family needs to recognize and get involved in making sure that counselor children aren't abused in such a manner. Not the easiest thing but certainly something vital. I have many a painful memory of my aunt or uncle questioningly reacting to my emotional behavior as it was more often than not abnormal for a child. But it was never pursued on their part and my parents simply brushed it off with a simple "oh hes just really mature for his age" or equivalent statement.

One of my many regrets is that I didn't get to live a childhood I would have liked. Since all my decision making was my own I was never pushed either towards positive goals or away from negative ones. Quite the laissez faire parenting style that can be quite damaging to the growth of any child.
So the bottom line would be for parents to let their children have experiences and help them work through their anxiety and insecurities and not just brush them away so that it just compounds into further problems as they get older.

Thankfully I started rebelling during my late teenage years and now in my early 20's I have a decent grip on life with goals so the future is looking bright. I still have to shake off the family permanently but all in good time I guess.

Meliodas · May 12, 2017

I didn't realise that emotional incest felt so good until I tried sharing all my deepest, darkest and most painful feelings with my second cousin.

No, really.

But to the point of your thread, parents are not angels and they will make mistakes. It is also kind of difficult to determine a child's type until puberty at the very earliest. As a general rule though, the most important thing for successful growth is stability, both emotional and financial, in the home the child grows up in. The second key is for parents to not project their own frustrations in the relationship onto the children in any way. Fe-heavy children are going to be particularly sensitive to this because of their tendency to absorb emotions from without; it's a form of emotional abuse and is particularly a problem with unstable mothers.

Marvin the Dendroid · May 12, 2017

Forgot the parenting bit. My son (10 yrs) may be an INFJ, although if he is, he's more into Ti than Fe. Definitely an INxx and possibly an INTP (maaaybe an INTJ), but a very considerate and emotionally understanding one. He is, in fact, a lot like me, except he doesn't seem to mind conflicts the way I do, so not a 9. He likes taking stuff apart to figure out how it works, but wouldn't seem terribly gifted in terms of actual physical execution. Better suited for things like coding and social structures. Again, much like his old man. Very loving, a major hugger & kisser.

Frankly I don't think he's the counselling type. He seems to almost enjoy aggravating his (probably) ESFP big sister and will dig in his heels if he believes he's right and everyone else wrong. I reckon generally giving him plenty of space to explore existence and kick back, providing a stable and safe base to build his life on and asking enough of him in terms of school etc. works. I'm not a pusher in terms of people, my kids included, and tend to sin on the side of being too laissez-faire, although I always take all emotions and emotional expressions very seriously. If something bothers him, I encourage him to bring it up and work on it until it no longer does. Even when I don't have much energy to deal with it. I totally suck at providing a go-getter attitude though, he needs to figure out what he wants from life and I'll support him, but I'm not going to tell him what to do.

My main challenge as a parent and human being is having energy and feeling engaged. As an sp 9, my mind disengages when it feels threatened. When things are good, stress levels low and I'm on top of things, I feel good all the time and am probably a pretty darn good parent. When stress levels rise, I struggle to keep my mind online, and am prone to giving my kids easy shortcuts just to save energy. I have to be exceptionally wise at picking my battles.

lifeisanillusion · May 12, 2017

Even if being an INFJ child makes it easier to confide in them, parents have no business doing this. Parents are responsible to take care of their children, not the other way around. I have no respect for parents that do this. Grow up and take on your responsibilities as a parent.

nyspirit54 · May 12, 2017

My mother was emotionally needy, so I did turn into a parent role with her. She was bi-polar and it was emotional hell for her to just have so-called "normal" interactions with other people. She was an excellent teacher by profession, so she kept her illness at bay when she taught. She was the greatest mom when she was on her medication(s), but as soon as she went off of her medications(when she felt she could handle her illness), she went off of the deep end becoming hallucinatory and not dealing with reality. She and my dad separated when I was 8, and I lived with her and saw my dad on Sundays and all holidays. My dad was an emotionally distant father so I never took on the counselor role with him. He was a strict disciplinarian and let me know that he was definitely the father figure in my life. I was an only child and I was torn between being a confidant with my mom and a child with my dad. Looking back so many years later, I realize that they were doing their best as parents no matter how flawed they were. I have forgiven them, but I really wish it hadn't been so hard for my mom to live an easier emotional life.

wums · May 17, 2017

Yeah, my mom used suicide attempts and cutting as a way to get attention and caregiving from me as a child. Treating me like a savior but not knowing me at all.

Ghosties · May 18, 2017

Reading all of these posts...is actually really comforting, knowing that other people can empathize with having to be the parent of their parents.

My bio mother is a shallow, vain person who was never fit to be a parent at all--and I think that's a huge issue with a lot of the parents being discussed in this thread. They lack(ed) the emotional maturity to take care of a tiny human being in the way they needed.

When my parents divorced around age 5, both of them would talk badly about the other to me.
As a kid, I mostly played this to get Pokemon stuff, but looking back now, it's disturbing the lengths both of them went to.

I'm not sure if this is something especially prone to INFJ/NF children, or if children with incapable parents are more likely to develop NF traits, but it seems like the link is there...somewhere.

StableSun35 · May 18, 2017

I did see unclear boundaries and feel I was enmeshed at times for sure. Codpendency and enmeshment have been big topics of research and discovery for me.
Here are some of the things I went through: both parents and my brother were very open talking about sex, but looking back it seems manipulative, as I was the youngest and it was only to pry into what was going on with me.

I feel like an ongoing rule in the home was that I had to obey all three of them, was not really allowed my own opinions, was sort of told how to feel about stuff, and yet they were all kind of immature and looking back I feel like I was quite emotionally mature at a young age. The worst part is the feeling that I was allowed no privacy. They were quite invasive, even into adulthood. Now it’s possible that’s part of my temperament, being open, but the feeling of being emotionally wounded after, and feeling like I wasn’t allowed to stick up for myself makes me think it wasn’t part of my temperament but of theirs (lack of respecting boundaries).

I did, however, read recently that it’s important that INFJs find a handful of people they trust to share their ideas with, instead of sharing randomly….reason being is this: If she shares and is shot down, the resulting emotions can be quite devastating, but if she shares and is supported or has inspired someone, the emotions sort of explode in a really positive way.

It’s pretty easy to bitch about parents, and am trying to move through feeling mad at them and into forgiveness, or at the very least acceptance that while they were my parents, they were also just simple humans like everyone else. There are no tests you have to pass to become a parent, intellectually or emotionally, you simply have to have sex.

Drecon · May 19, 2017

I never felt like the adult in our household. Our family functioned pretty well, with both parents acting like parents. Besides, I had far too low self-esteem in those days to do anything of the sort.

Aizar · May 20, 2017

Sort of. I felt like the most mature one out of my brother and I, but then he IS autistic...

Dad was never really there, fairly irresponsible. Would yell at everyone we were spending too much (I remember arguments happening at 2am in the morning) and then go out and spend two thousand dollars on a new bike, guitar, computer--whatever suited his fancy at the time. And he went through a loooot of fancies...

Mom was doing her best, might've had bipolar, though looking back on it I think she was just severely depressed because my dad treated her like crap, and she was trying to take care of a special needs kid all by herself because no one believed he was special needs (until he was about 10 or so and the school admitted she was right, and Dad still doesn't believe). Everyone blamed her for being a bad parent. I knew she did things like cut and considered suicide, but she never actually showed those things to me. She did a lot of the right things, but life was just bigger than her on a lot of days.

And I was the perfect little angel until puberty, then I couldn't stand it and dived into the black hole of depression myself. Climbed back out once I was apart from the family, and saw how real families worked through my roommates at college and how their parents treated them. Now I refuse to go back to the parenting role for either my parents or my brother. They treat me with respect or we don't talk. Is as simple as that. Works well so far...

Emotional Incest & INFJs as Counselors

Sour Roses

Vivid Melody

lizw47

Zosio

AppleJackzO

lavendersnow

lizw47

Firemoon

Snowflake Minuet

Marvin the Dendroid

Crimson Ash

Meliodas

Marvin the Dendroid

lifeisanillusion

nyspirit54

wums

Ghosties

StableSun35

Drecon

Aizar

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