LII INTj and ILI INTp

aestrivex · Apr 24, 2013

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:
Despite these types being very different in terms of information elements, I can't help but to notice a lot of similarities between the two.

as you have noted, the types are indeed very different. so before answering your query, i pose the question; you notice a lot of similarities. such as?

ThatOneWeirdGuy Discussion starter · Apr 24, 2013

Edited the OP.

Sixty Nein · Apr 25, 2013

I always thought that Quasi-identity relationships were actually of being superficially similar, but that they, themselves are actually extremely different in both their focus, and their behavoirs.

That and one is an intuition dominant, and one is a thinking dominant. The sentiment that they are quite similar mostly stems from MBTI and that most people who identify as being INTx in some form, have the same attitude towards reality and such.

cyamitide · Apr 25, 2013

Idk, the word "subjective" make me think about specific people of this type whom I know, their personal traits, but these aren't particularly type related. I mean types are generalized, abstract, theoretical notions. How can it be described on a personal level? Imo they can only be described it from point of view of IEs, model A, dichotomies, etc. The more "personable" type profiles end up being based on the author's friend or acquaintance or family relation -- but they never grasp the entire type itself. I just have a lot of trouble endowing types with personal, subjective traits because I think these depend on the person, not their type.

Since I've made a thread on this topic some months ago, I'll copy/paste the more relevant responses from it:

yanap said:
I find it pretty easy to distinguish those two. I might be biased of course because one's my dual, the other's my conflictor, but especially Fe vs Fi valuing is extremely obvious in those two imo.

LIIs, even the extremely nerdy and awkward ones, always have some kind of "charisma" (that's Fe seeking). They are always looking on what effect they're having on people, and kinda "tune in" on them, especially in larger groups. Watch some Noam Chomsky talks for example, he is a typical example of a "charismatic" LII. Ne is also very obvious in those instances, they're always trying to make things more abstract and general. Essentially, LIIs aim to turn everything into math/logic.

ILIs on the other hand are very plain and dry at first, even for us SEEs it can be a challenge to get them to open up. But it's obvious that they're Fi junkies, they just have that look that says "love me" XD. ILIs can sometimes be very outgoing also, while I don't know any LIIs that are social in the usual sense of the word. You can meet some ILIs when going out and partying, especially in more fucked up bars (there are lots in that metal bar I'm always going to), while LIIs prefer something more quiet I think. Most ILIs need help opening up though because they essentially are very unsure about how to relate to people, despite doing a very good job if you let them. They try to hide their insecurity, and therefore often come off as standoffish. LIIs are much more open to begin with, but they can easily spoil their relations by being too much of a stickler for correctness and consistency.

Although the ILI is called the Critic, both LII and ILI can be very critical, but in very different areas. ILIs are usually critical about common stupidity, bureaucracy, and superficiality in people. LIIs are the duals of ESEs, the masters of stupidity, bureaucracy and superficiality alike (no im not biased lol), they focus more on everything sticking together logically (I'm very bad at describing this, blame my Ti POLR). I often contradict myself, because what I'm saying reflects my feelings at this particular moment, and LIIs (and LSIs/ISTjs) then often jump in and criticize me for not making sense.

Hope that helps

Figure said:
I think it's subtle - as in, a matter of emphasis.

A lot of people badly confuse Ti and Te, so it's easy to see why people confuse these two so often. However, I think there are a couple important differences most people can spot if they pay close attention to the focal points each tend to return to in communication, especially when speaking to each other (ILI and LII one on one).

Both types like to make distinctions, but in most cases, ILI return frequently to conceptual distinctions to support what they're saying, and LII return to logical distinctions. My example here is itself a good example of a conceptual distinction - one could perceive a difference between the two types by taking in information about their patterns of thought (Ni). On the other hand, an LII would have been, perhaps, more likely to attempt to make some sort of self-containing statement, or find a single word or phrase that handles the difference, judgmentally, on its own. An ILI offers a vision, an LII offers a model. When an ILI offers a model, it's to make the vision seem plausible to the outside, since it's probably innately nonconformist; when an LII offers a vision, it's to make the model more impervious to flaws or inconsistencies.

In writing, I find that an LII's confidence in saying something corresponds to how sure they are that their logic works out correctly, and cannot be refuted - regardless of whether or not the person actually sees it in a pragmatic way (rational). I find that an ILI hopes the other person will eventually see the same thing/pattern they do, and simplifies the complexity of what they see to make it practical and relevant to everyday life - regardless of whether or not the vision itself can be even slightly justified by evidence.

sinigang said:
I am an LII and my girlfriend is an ILI. One easy way to spot them is to look at their second, creative functions. LII would have Ne, ILI would have Te. This means, the LII would be more 'crazy' random, as they would seem like quiet ENTPs/ILEs who would do more wacky stuff when not everyone is looking (when they're comfortable) and on the other hand, ILI's would be more boring (no offense seriously). Te is simply pragmatism manifested in saying things bluntly which is why ILI's are too honest at saying how much you suck.

Also, LII's require only the principles and systems to be correct to agree, while ILI's tend to prefer more concrete evidence and facts.

Another way to spot them, is that LII's tend to not care about hygiene, in the most traditional sense. I'm quite guilty of that. This is due to the Introverted Sensing being in the weaker super Id block. While the ILI is quite squeamish and do not respond well to disgusting displays like showing off your nose goo. Not that its a very smart thing to do. Why is this so? Because the Si is the POLR of the LIE/ENTJ who have the same functions in every block except they're reversed. So basically, they're annoyed and attracted by the same things.

I'm pretty sure people who read MBTI are quite confused by the INTP and INTJ descriptions in that system, because they've got them both mixed up and thus mistyping themselves. Socionics made me more sure of the differences between them.

Elyasis said:
INTj rational, static, strategic, emotivist, merry, judicious, result, asking

INTp irrational, dynamic, tactical, contructivist, serious, decisive, process, declaring

They have far less in common than not.

How this will play out in the individual level is, of course, up to the individuals.

Both are obstinate, democratic, far-sighted, and negativists.

I think a lot of the confusion between the two is due to them both over emphasizing those aspects of themselves and not so much advertising their differences.

Each's Ego functions are in the Id Block. How this manifests itself is INTp are more expressive but reveal less. For INTj it's the opposite. INTp are more like closed systems. INTj like open systems. INTj more amiable at first, become comfortable with criticizing you the better that they know you. INTp more apt to find flaws, warm up to being sociable with you the longer you have known them.

I did intentionally use the bolded words up there.

sinigang said:
"INTj more amiable at first, become comfortable with criticizing you the better that they know you. INTp more apt to find flaws, warm up to being sociable with you the longer you have known them."

^^ I would completely agree with these and I have seen these in action. As an INTP/LII, I would usually see how correct/good something is, but I don't really have any impulse to say my thoughts about something immediately, they just stay in my head until I am compelled to say something. Because of this openness, I am perceived to be quite friendly even though I have high standards which I don't tell anyone anyway.

On the other hand, my ILI girlfriend is quick to say what flaws she could find of something and has no real issues about saying them. For that, she would seem quite stingy and on top of that, she has the Fi which makes her prefer only being with a few close friends. This is in contrast to me having many friends but no hard distinction for closeness.

Notice that this is because, the first three dominant functions in the model A in order, Ti Ne Ni for the LII, Ni Te Ti for the ILI. Basically, Te is the only extraverted judging function in immediate reach of one of them, which is the ILI. Then there's LII Fe which is generally a friendly trait and ILI Fi is for close and warm friendships.

And for social incompetence, yes, the bias is there. But I would think a way to look at it is that it is because of the existence of more socially adept people. If the world only had LIIs and ILIs, would we still be socially incompetent? But anyway, age and development is also into play so probably later in life, we would be at least more sociable right? Unless of course we end up in some unfortunate accident, then we would not be able to speak about parties and football.

Also, both LIIs and ILIs apparently have "cold-blooded" style of communication according to this, and expect "emotional passion/aggression" coming from another (their duals being ESEs and SEEs): Communication Styles

aestrivex · Apr 25, 2013

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:
Despite these types being very different in terms of information elements, I can't help but to notice a lot of similarities between the two. They are both generally socially introverted,

They are both introverted types. Typically, introverted types are more socially introverted than extroverted types. I grant this similarity.

although have a certain charisma to them due to the placing of extroverted ethics on their functions.

Can you explain? LIIs -- maybe have a charisma to them from extroverted ethics, although the nature of Fe as a suggestive function is that this charisma is often underrepresented. ILIs, to describe them as charismatic seems very, deeply wrong.

Both love their own internal worlds, full of theories, connections and intellectualism.

Indeed, along with lots of other types, most of whom are introverts.

I have trouble verbalizing it, but the two types do seem to have something else about them that strike me as two peas in a pod. This is an irrational hunch that some of you may find odd, but it does come across as strong.

Indeed, I find it odd. I find it also essentially wrong, and poorly justified.

So, don't explain the differences in information elements because I already know that. I want to know what some of you really think of ILI and LII in a subjective way. Like you were explaining the two to a friend who knew absolutely nothing about socionics or personality typology.

I would say that ILIs, as gamma types, are essentially "harsh" and unaccommodating where LIIs are neither of these (although they may be too unaware to be highly accommodating, certainly the average LII with some life experience is more accommodating). ILIs are characteristically apathetic and habitually passive, and LIIs are habitually organized (if not in all possible ways).

ThatOneWeirdGuy Discussion starter · Apr 25, 2013

aestrivex said:
Indeed, I find it odd. I find it also essentially wrong, and poorly justified.

As do I. I usually dismiss these stupid things that pop into my head, but this one seemed to stick. Which is why I wanted to have second opinions, in case I was missing some key connection or other people had this irrational and subjective vibe as well, which could mean a common denominator causing it, that there is a key connection, both or none of the above.

cyamitide · Apr 25, 2013

Internally ...
ILIs are emotionally vulnerable and sensitive
LIIs are emotionally unaware, absent, not in tune with themselves

ThatOneWeirdGuy Discussion starter · Apr 25, 2013

I'd think with the position of Fe on LII's they'd theoretically be somewhat sensitive to the social/emotional environment, or have some subconscious drive to be "accepted," etc... At least not emotionally absent.

RoSoDude · Apr 28, 2013

My roommate is an ILI, and we've been good friends for 8 years. We seem outwardly similar in certain ways, but our worldviews are completely at odds, but we don't make it a big deal.

Something I will note about quasi-identicals is that their Supervision and Benefit relationships always point to the same quadra. For example, both the LII and ILI have Delta Supervisees, and both have Beta Benefactors. I think that the information processing that causes this can lend itself in certain ways to a mutual understanding. It isn't direct, certainly, but both share a certain perspective towards each adjacent quadra's style of information processing that can improve communication. In this way the connection between the two types is somewhat asymptotic. The two can rarely touch directly, but they can come close if the right angle is taken.

LII INTj and ILI INTp

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