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Fi is internal, that feeling deep in the pit of your stomach that something is right, wrong, fair unfair, correct, incorrect. You just know as if by instinct without relying on any external system of morals, laws etc. "You feel it in your bones." If the wold and society would go under you'd still know what is good and what is not, what you like and what not, you'd go against God if you'd have to and tear down the hypocrisy, the veil of lies and deception to expose the raw core of it so you can rip out the infection! Nothing external is sacred enough.

Fi is conscience, the burning inner flame. Nothing external may stand in it's way.

Its easy to train, just get into a situation and hold your inner ear to the ground. What do you feel about everything outside of yourself? What is the relationship between you and everything else?

Imo Fi is simple, fast and efficient. ;) plus Fi doms can make the best damn omelets ever! Improv. cooking is a Fi thing.

People say Fi is a system of values. NO IT IS NOT! Fi is a function, it acts, it judges, it does not build a database of values, yet a Fi dom knows what he/she values.
 
Fi is internal, that feeling deep in the pit of your stomach that something is right, wrong, fair unfair, correct, incorrect. You just know as if by instinct without relying on any external system of morals, laws etc. "You feel it in your bones."

:::snip:::

People say Fi is a system of values. NO IT IS NOT! Fi is a function, it acts, it judges, it does not build a database of values, yet a Fi dom knows what he/she values.
Allow me to disagree a bit with the first part, though I suspect we are actually saying, in essence, the same thing. But I would characterize Fi, not so much as operating without any external influence, but rather that external value systems merely inform the Fi function. On the other hand, Fe seems to me to be more rigidly connected/obedient to external value systems. So, for Fi, external value systems are guidelines, while for Fe, they are rules (the code) that must be followed. ;-)

I say this, because I don't see any introverted function being able to operate in a vacuum. One has to learn things somewhere. One has to get information in, in order to get information out again. The thing is, if you can convince of the validity of your values, I can internalize them for myself, but don't ever expect me to just do it "to keep the peace" or just because it is the accepted norm. <rant>In fact, even though I now understand that this sort of thinking seems to be the result of an extroverted ethics function, and how it seems to help societal groups function, I still find this way of acting distasteful, and difficult (read impossible) to justify.</rant>

To return to my original point. I don't think that Fi is devoid of any outside influence. It's just that that outside influence needs to justify its existence before it can be internalized.
 
Fi is internal, that feeling deep in the pit of your stomach that something is right, wrong, fair unfair, correct, incorrect. You just know as if by instinct without relying on any external system of morals, laws etc. "You feel it in your bones." If the wold and society would go under you'd still know what is good and what is not, what you like and what not, you'd go against God if you'd have to and tear down the hypocrisy, the veil of lies and deception to expose the raw core of it so you can rip out the infection! Nothing external is sacred enough.

Fi is conscience, the burning inner flame. Nothing external may stand in it's way.

Its easy to train, just get into a situation and hold your inner ear to the ground. What do you feel about everything outside of yourself? What is the relationship between you and everything else?

Imo Fi is simple, fast and efficient. ;) plus Fi doms can make the best damn omelets ever! Improv. cooking is a Fi thing.

People say Fi is a system of values. NO IT IS NOT! Fi is a function, it acts, it judges, it does not build a database of values, yet a Fi dom knows what he/she values.

That's the best most clear description of Fi, ever.
 
Allow me to disagree a bit with the first part, though I suspect we are actually saying, in essence, the same thing. But I would characterize Fi, not so much as operating without any external influence, but rather that external value systems merely inform the Fi function. On the other hand, Fe seems to me to be more rigidly connected/obedient to external value systems. So, for Fi, external value systems are guidelines, while for Fe, they are rules (the code) that must be followed. ;-)

I say this, because I don't see any introverted function being able to operate in a vacuum. One has to learn things somewhere. One has to get information in, in order to get information out again. The thing is, if you can convince of the validity of your values, I can internalize them for myself, but don't ever expect me to just do it "to keep the peace" or just because it is the accepted norm. <rant>In fact, even though I now understand that this sort of thinking seems to be the result of an extroverted ethics function, and how it seems to help societal groups function, I still find this way of acting distasteful, and difficult (read impossible) to justify.</rant>

To return to my original point. I don't think that Fi is devoid of any outside influence. It's just that that outside influence needs to justify its existence before it can be internalized.
Quoting personalityjunkie on Fi: For example, I didn’t have to factually discern a respect for human dignity; I simply found myself in situations where people did not respect human dignity, and it made me angry — I found out that I hate bullying.”
 
Quoting personalityjunkie on Fi: For example, I didn’t have to factually discern a respect for human dignity; I simply found myself in situations where people did not respect human dignity, and it made me angry — I found out that I hate bullying.”
Ha! I love Personality Junkie. I think it's about the best, most reasoned and careful site out there on the functions, etc. :) That said, he was describing one person's feelings. He's not saying much as to where these values actually come from. I have to confess that it is difficult to describe these things. In the same way, it's difficult to describe where Ti gets its foundational structure. I like this quote, btw, from the same guy, right before what you quoted:

My inner values and feelings (Fi) are like a building, a structure of affections that inform my worldview. This involves an inner love for certain things, and an inner repulsion for other things. My values and feelings form “blocks” of varying hardness, depending on how strongly I feel about them; the stronger ones are more resilient…I constantly discover more about the structure as I go, and what I should change to make it better.

What he is describing is his values/feelings being built out of blocks. This is kind of like how my wife describes her Ti. But the question is, where did those blocks come from? As adults, we like to think that we approach things as they are, but there is a lot that we have gotten, from our infancy up. The example you quote--bullying. That is a particular Fi trait, but as a young child--infant, really--our mothers, and/or family tend to protect us--value us. You take that away, and you frequently end up with a bully. So, a protected and safe-feeling child would revolt at the bully's behavior. Beyond that, starting in the earliest years in school or preschool, bullying is spoken and acted against, or at least given lip service. But a healthy Fi would hate to be bullied, so recognizes bullying as wrong, as well. So again, what you have is the external informing the internal, without prescribing. That's why I said what I said. Everything goes in, but only what matches what we have settled (those hard blocks) gets assimilated. Those harder blocks are the ones we have held the longest, and are the most reinforced. Like I said, nothing comes from a vacuum. It has to get in there somewhere. For Fi, though, I don't think it's always obvious--usually not.

Oh, and one more thought. ;-) Fi is fed by our lesser functions. The first is our extro-sensing. We see around us, but our Ni also informs and reinforces our Fi. Again, Ni is very much beyond or outside language. How does one express these things in human language? I think this reinforces that sense that my values come from myself alone--and they do, in so far as our minds synthesize and build and create our own values from what we've taken in, thus appearing, even to ourselves, as if they have no outside influence. But I think there is an influence, but it's doing nothing more than informing, and shaping in little ways (and possibly indiscernible at the same time). So, the end result is that what comes out may look nothing like what went in. I think, on the other hand, that for Fe types, what goes in comes right back out.

I don't know if this will help the OP or not, but I hope our discussion on Fi does. :)
 
People say Fi is a system of values. NO IT IS NOT! Fi is a function, it acts, it judges, it does not build a database of values, yet a Fi dom knows what he/she values.
I'm not sure I quite understand this bit, but everything else I agree with wholeheartedly. Could you explain it?
If you know what you value, how do you know how much you value it if you haven't decided to store it in a bank of values? This doesn't make sense. It sounds contradictory. You are saying you have a "thing" (?) that guides your beliefs but it's not a system per se, it's a "gut reaction". Am I correct?

I noticed further down you quoted Personality Junkie, but from that same website you can also get this:
My inner values and feelings (Fi) are like a building, a structure of affections that inform my worldview. This involves an inner love for certain things, and an inner repulsion for other things. My values and feelings form “blocks” of varying hardness, depending on how strongly I feel about them; the stronger ones are more resilient…I constantly discover more about the structure as I go, and what I should change to make it better.
That sounds like a system of values that informs worldview. This has been my experience with Fi users, their values are black and white. You can not challenge their views directly, they need to experience a shift in their "gut reaction" of a situation before they change their opinion on something.

This is similar to how I experience Ti; when presented with something I just get a "gut reaction" or hunch that it is either logically sound or not. But I can not always describe why I do not think this view is irrational, and then I get frustrated. I think this is Ni-Ti at work though, not too sure.
 
I'm not sure I quite understand this bit, but everything else I agree with wholeheartedly. Could you explain it?

I noticed further down you quoted Personality Junkie, but from that same website you can also get this:

That sounds like a system of values that informs worldview. This has been my experience with Fi users, their values are black and white. You can not challenge their views directly, they need to experience a shift in their "gut reaction" of a situation before they change their opinion on something.

This is similar to how I experience Ti; when presented with something I just get a "gut reaction" or hunch that it is either logically sound or not. But I can not always describe why I do not think this view is irrational, and then I get frustrated. I think this is Ni-Ti at work though, not too sure.
Fi is not a system, because it is a function. More specifically it is the judging of incoming information by attributing value to it. A value that is subjective. While it may lead to someone on the outside percieving it as "a system of values that is internal", I as a Fi user am not aware of this so called system's structure or all the values combined into a structure and if it exists, Fi is still not the system itself, but a action that led to the forming of such a said system.

If you ask about my values my answer will be that it depends on what I feel once I am facing a specific situation, I can not enumerate them or make a list of values or give you specifics about the structure/components of this system of values that is supposed to exist.
 
If you ask about my values my answer will be that it depends on what I feel once I am facing a specific situation, I can not enumerate them or make a list of values or give you specifics about the structure/components of this system of values that is supposed to exist.
This is very true. Outside of a context, I don't think I could elucidate what I think or feel in linguistic terms. And I frequently don't know until I actually approach a situation, exactly where I'll come down on it, but generally, once it does happen, I can then clarify, in my mind, at least, the structure underneath. Maybe that's why I like that part from the Personality Junkie page that both @JungleDisco and I quoted, about the blocks. Foundations exist below the surface, but they hold the entire building up.

But definitely, we ought not confuse the function Fi with the result (or output) of the function Fi.
 
Fi is not a system, because it is a function. More specifically it is the judging of incoming information by attributing value to it. A value that is subjective. While it may lead to someone on the outside percieving it as "a system of values that is internal", I as a Fi user am not aware of this so called system's structure or all the values combined into a structure and if it exists, Fi is still not the system itself, but a action that led to the forming of such a said system.

If you ask about my values my answer will be that it depends on what I feel once I am facing a specific situation, I can not enumerate them or make a list of values or give you specifics about the structure/components of this system of values that is supposed to exist.
Something being a function (in Jungian terms) does not mean it can not be a system either.
These two are not mutually exclusive. Ti is described as a system and I don't usually see INTP's going up in arms about that peculiar lexical choice.

You keep describing it is a system too, eg the first underlined bit, how do you know how to attribute value to the incoming information if you do not have a system with which you judge it against?

If Fi is the development of this system, why build a system to not use it? That doesn't really make sense.
We know Fi makes value judgements so, it can not also make a system but then not use that system to come to its value judgment.
 
Something being a function does not mean it can not be a system either.
These two are not mutually exclusive.

You keep describing it is a system to, eg the bolded bits, how do you know how to attribute value to the incoming information if you do not have a system with which you judge it by?
If the function and system were the same or identical, then all ISFPs would think exactly the same, or rather, come to identical conclusions. This is patently untrue, so we have to separate the function from the system(s) that result from the function.

Imagine a sorting box (like at an old post office). Everything that comes into the "system" gets sorted and pigeon-holed according to... a system that I designed and operate. Here's how it works. As things come in, they get put into pigeonholes. As the holes fill, some will remain empty, others will fill quite a lot, based on your internal sorting system. Now, here's the thing. It is subject to change/modification. But also that sorting system itself bears on how the incoming data and stored data are treated. It is only when the incoming data becomes overwhelmingly convincing, that the modifications will change. Until that point, however, the system stays in place as-is, and the system throws out what it considers bad data. And smaller changes happen easier than bigger ones. If I were to attempt to describe Fe, on the other hand (I think it's good to try to contrast the two to understand them better), I would say that Fe would be like using the Post Office's system, without any hope of modifying it. They have their rules for alphabetizing and/or sorting, and Fe sticks with those rules, even if, in practice, they aren't the ultimate or most efficient rules for operating the system. Am I right about Fe here?

I know the analogy is weak, but it's all I can come up with at the moment. ;-)
 
If the function and system were the same or identical, then all ISFPs would think exactly the same, or rather, come to identical conclusions. This is patently untrue, so we have to separate the function from the system(s) that result from the function.
No. A system can be subjective, hence why the function is introverted. It implies that the use of the function will be dependant solely on the user and not any external factors. So, I still don't really get what you mean by separating the function from its use. The function Introverted Feeling, implies it is subjective already so there is no need to further separate it.

Imagine a sorting box (like at an old post office). Everything that comes into the "system" gets sorted and pigeon-holed according to... a system that I designed and operate. Here's how it works. As things come in, they get put into pigeonholes. As the holes fill, some will remain empty, others will fill quite a lot, based on your internal sorting system. Now, here's the thing. It is subject to change/modification. But also that sorting system itself bears on how the incoming data and stored data are treated. It is only when the incoming data becomes overwhelmingly convincing, that the modifications will change. Until that point, however, the system stays in place as-is, and the system throws out what it considers bad data. And smaller changes happen easier than bigger ones. If I were to attempt to describe Fe, on the other hand (I think it's good to try to contrast the two to understand them better), I would say that Fe would be like using the Post Office's system, without any hope of modifying it. They have their rules for alphabetizing and/or sorting, and Fe sticks with those rules, even if, in practice, they aren't the ultimate or most efficient rules for operating the system. Am I right about Fe here?

I know the analogy is weak, but it's all I can come up with at the moment. ;-)
I have no idea what that has to do with Fe, so no. The metaphor is incorrect.
Fe is like putting away my own subjective value judgements in favour of maintaining/encouraging harmony/ a general consensus.

Here is what personalityjunkie has to say about it:
When Fe types engage with others, they are looking to create a bond of shared feeling, especially “good” feeling. This requires they not only extravert feeling, but also perceive it. They are hoping their feelings will be understood and reciprocated in a way that allows both parties to get on the same emotional page.
and
In short, Fi is focused on rallying for specific causes or helping specific individuals, especially children, animals, and the underserved. Fe, contrast, is more concerned with a general fostering of consensus, harmony, and community.
 
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No. A system can be subjective, hence why the function is introverted. It implies that the use of the function will be dependant solely on the user and not any external factors. So, I still don't really get what you mean by separating the function from its use. The function Introverted Feeling, implies it is subjective already so there is no need to further separate it.
I see what you are saying. I guess I (and @FreeBeer) understood you, by using the word "system" an implication of external values, like how you described Fe. A system would imply something more universal. So that, all relying on their introverted feeling would/should come out with comparable value systems. To be honest, it sounds like a degrading of who I am. ;-) That's why the tempest in a teapot, so to speak. ;-)

I have no idea what that has to do with Fe, so no. The metaphor is incorrect.
Fe is like putting away my own subjective judgements in favour of maintaining/adopting a status quo.
But to my mind, you just said the same thing I did:

If I were to attempt to describe Fe, on the other hand, I would say that Fe would be like using the Post Office's system, without any hope (maybe I should have said here, "desire" or "wish") of modifying it. They have their rules for alphabetizing and/or sorting, and Fe sticks with those rules, even if, in practice, they aren't the ultimate or most efficient rules for operating the system.

Fi would create their own system (subjective judgments), rather than adopt the Post Office's practices (maintaining/adopting a status quo).

As an aside, I wonder if Ti and Te dominant/aux folk have the same misunderstandings that can get so heated? ;-)
 
I see what you are saying. I guess I (and @FreeBeer) understood you, by using the word "system" an implication of external values, like how you described Fe. A system would imply something more universal. So that, all relying on their introverted feeling would/should come out with comparable value systems. To be honest, it sounds like a degrading of who I am. ;-) That's why the tempest in a teapot, so to speak. ;-)
No not at all! I know introverted feelers have their own personal values that they do not readily share, but from my observations these values are built like a system because they tend to be very black and white and rigid UNTIL they sense a shift in their gut reaction.


But to my mind, you just said the same thing I did:

If I were to attempt to describe Fe, on the other hand, I would say that Fe would be like using the Post Office's system, without any hope (maybe I should have said here, "desire" or "wish") of modifying it. They have their rules for alphabetizing and/or sorting, and Fe sticks with those rules, even if, in practice, they aren't the ultimate or most efficient rules for operating the system.

Fi would create their own system (subjective judgments), rather than adopt the Post Office's practices (maintaining/adopting a status quo).

As an aside, I wonder if Ti and Te dominant/aux folk have the same misunderstandings that can get so heated? ;-)
Now I understand you. And I agree, I do not tend to make my own personal feeling judgements. I use my inner world to process my thoughts and ideas, as opposed to my moral values.
 
Something being a function (in Jungian terms) does not mean it can not be a system either.
These two are not mutually exclusive. Ti is described as a system and I don't usually see INTP's going up in arms about that peculiar lexical choice.

You keep describing it is a system to, eg the first underlined bit, how do you know how to attribute value to the incoming information if you do not have a system with which you judge it against?

If Fi is the development of this system, why build a system to not use it? That doesn't really make sense.
We know Fi makes value judgements so, it can not also make a system but then not use that system to come to its value judgment.
It is called a function and not a system for a specific reason. The value I give to incoming information is based on what I feel, Am I comfortable with it or not, how does it feel to me, does it bore me, exite me and so on. That is the starting point from which I form my attitude towards it as I start understanding why exactly it makes me feel a certain way and from here on out I can formulate a logical reason as to why aka the full fledged value which will stick with me from now on. As long as the information I have remains constant or similar it will not change.

I do not need to cotrast it to anything. I do not need an outside or internal standard to compare it with. I just know.
 
It is called a function and not a system for a specific reason. The value I give to incoming information is based on what I feel, Am I comfortable with it or not, how does it feel to me, does it bore me, exite me and so on. That is the starting point from which I form my attitude towards it as I start understanding why exactly it makes me feel a certain way and from here on out I can formulate a logical reason as to why aka the full fledged value which will stick with me from now on. As long as the information I have remains constant or similar it will not change.

I do not need to cotrast it to anything. I do not need an outside or internal standard. I just know.
I'm going to compare this answer to ones given by Ni users who claim Ni is a mystical, unknowable, difficult to explain function.

...And I'm going to leave this thread here because it seems to me you just can't really put in words how your Fi works and because of that, it's not a system.
 
No not at all! I know introverted feelers have their own personal values that they do not readily share, but from my observations these values are built like a system because they tend to be very black and white and rigid UNTIL they sense a shift in their gut reaction.
I just thought of another reason why "system" doesn't seem to fit my view of it. "System" generally implies a set standard of rules and processes. I have developed systems for work--work flows, worker schedules, etc. Those are systems, but Fi operates a bit differently. It's not a point-A to point-B or point-Z process. It operates more synthetically or (I hate to use this word) holistically. Even the sorting box metaphor isn't quite right for me, but it was what I could think of on the spot. This is because what happens, tends to happen outside of conscious, or rational thought. The building metaphor probably fits better, because, while it is comprised of systems (plumbing, electric, etc.) it is more than the sum of the parts. They all serve the whole, and the whole is both aesthetic and functional. There are rooms for fulfilling certain functions, like cooking or sleeping, and also decorations, etc. To change that internal system would require renovation--tearing out the old, and rebuilding the new. Oh, and just because, to you on the outside, it appears as black and white, on the inside, it is very beautiful and a wonderful home to live in. ;-) (at least most of the time)
 
I just thought of another reason why "system" doesn't seem to fit my view of it. "System" generally implies a set standard of rules and processes. I have developed systems for work--work flows, worker schedules, etc. Those are systems, but Fi operates a bit differently. It's not a point-A to point-B or point-Z process. It operates more synthetically or (I hate to use this word) holistically. Even the sorting box metaphor isn't quite right for me, but it was what I could think of on the spot. This is because what happens, tends to happen outside of conscious, or rational thought. The building metaphor probably fits better, because, while it is comprised of systems (plumbing, electric, etc.) it is more than the sum of the parts. They all serve the whole, and the whole is both aesthetic and functional. There are rooms for fulfilling certain functions, like cooking or sleeping, and also decorations, etc. To change that internal system would require renovation--tearing out the old, and rebuilding the new. Oh, and just because, to you on the outside, it appears as black and white, on the inside, it is very beautiful and a wonderful home to live in. ;-) (at least most of the time)
I don't use "system" to mean automated process.
I use "system" to mean "A set of connected things or parts forming a complex whole, in particular." - from google dictionary.

Bingo!!!:proud: You nailed it!
That was irony.
 
I'm going to compare this answer to ones given by Ni users who claim Ni is a mystical, unknowable, difficult to explain function.

...And I'm going to leave this thread here because it seems to me you just can't really put in words how your Fi works and because of that, it's not a system.
Its not a system because the valuesystem is the result of the function, not the function itself. Why is that so hard to comprehend? How does a baby know what it likes and what it doesen't? Is it born with a preestablished set of values? Ofc not.

Maybe mine and ferroequinologist's approach is strange because we are Ni-ish and not Si-ish.
 
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