ENFJ - INTP communication issues when stressed: would like an insight if possible...

Wow that statistic about women being dissatisfied with INTPs in marriage is alarming. I'd guess that has something to do with our conflict avoidance.

I feel your pain, and I do think it is the major communication issue in ENFJ/INTP relationships.

I think you've nailed on the head what the issues are. Too small of a space, no new people around, no immediate ways to interact with others that feel the same way you do. And you're right, he probably realizes and senses that its stressing you out, and because you both have been through antsy times before where you will want the empathy and support and he'll want his space, he is probably noticing this pattern and stressing about it in his own way where he's like "Oh shit, here we go again. Where are my headphones?"

When the INTP empathy/sympathy tank is empty - it's empty. Totally tapped out. And it regenerates pretty slowly for some people more than others. As an ENFJ I'm sure you want to strangle him for not being there when you need him, but it sounds like he needs to recharge before he's able to return some of that. I would just try and realize that you are correctly identifying what the issues are, realize that this may be as bad as it gets, and as soon as either of your lives returns to normalcy (new job, new friends, new hobbies, anything new) will change things for the better. Your INTP will feel stimulated, he'll get his energy reserves back, and be able to sympathize in his marginal way, you'll feel better, he won't stress about you stressing, and it'll be blissful . . .or something like that.

At least you have sites like this where you can talk to like-minded people. I know it isn't the same as actual face to face interaction but it helps in the short term.

I'm very close with my ENJF sister and her INTJ husband, so I can relate to a lot of the type interactions you're describing.

I'm completely familiar with the need my sister (and I presume the ENFJ) has to connect with people in a harmonious way, especially in times of stress. And I'm also familiar with the INTP complete inability to relate to that. :tongue: But, while it always confused the hell out of me about her in the past, over time, and especially after adding some MBTI based perspective to the mix more recently, I came to appreciate and understand how this need stems directly from a large part of her personality. Further, how that same part of her personality directly leads to the things about her cognition which make her a great sister to me, a great friend to everyone she loves, and an indispensable person in her highly technical workplace. So, I have sympathy for your situation, even though I know it's one I'll never run into from your angle.

Both of you being really stressed out at the same time is the real issue, as you said. If only one or the other of you is stressed out, then I can see how ENFJ and INTP types might be a surprisingly compatible mix. INTPs can make good listeners and give well thought out feedback and even assurance, with their love of observation and contemplation. But this is contingent not being in the mood to jump in a closet or hole up at work, which is exactly the mood that being stressed will put them in. On the ENFJ side, they're really good at sensing when the INTP needs space from their uncanny ability to deduce everyone's mood profiles. They just have high emotional intelligence in general. My sister is great at showing token interest but laughing at me (in a good way) whenever I start ranting about my latest topic of obsession. Of course, when stressed, staying away from the people they love is the last thing the ENFJ wants to do. It can seem like having to do so destroys the entire point of maintaining a relationship to begin with, and this applies most of all to significant others.

I'm repeating a lot of things I know that you know, and my goal is just to show that INTPs are capable of understanding these things in a positive way, even if in the heat of stress they appear to be judging these things. Also, to assure you that your logic seems spot on from my experience.

I see a very similar breakdown of communication between my sister and her INTJ husband. While he does withdraw some when he's stressed by his ridiculous job, it's not as much or as fast as I think an INTP would. Instead he'll get really snippy and critical about what he views as lack of rationality in the thoughts my sister expresses, when what she's really looking for is that he knows her well and cares (and I know he does both, he's just awful at expressing it in the way she's looking for... because he's an INTJ.) So, even though he doesn't withdraw so much, he becomes emotionally unavailable as far as she's concerned. I'll also start picking at inconsistency if I'm stressed and getting hit with a torrent of Fe, but it takes a bit longer than it seems to for an INTJ, and I'll try to withdraw more first.

The feeble advice I'll give is to find other ways to blow off your steam. Get in touch with your family, exercise, write down your thoughts, meditate, watch Carl Sagan and Bob Ross videos on youtube; whatever it takes until the stress from new country acclimation begins to lessen for both of you.

Changing yourself or your INTP to better deal with each others' stress responses will be difficult. Like you said, finding ways to be more emotionally independent would be your path. For your INTP, it really comes down to whether you can find a way to communicate your needs to him that makes him see the value and safety of changing some of his behaviors. INTPs can be very adaptable, but they have to see very good reasons for making their adaptations, and, worst of all, they have to feel convinced that they came upon these reasons independently. This might soften somewhat with age, though.

Limonali said:

I do sense that becoming more independent is something that many times not only makes us feel better, and also tends to draw INTPs out of their caves, as they come sniffling to check on the novelty of the situation (ENFJ not moaning for contact, but disappearing happily without a word ). I think ENFJs crave novelty too, especially in social world. Yet when I find myself so stressed, I think it really difficult to just go ahead, happily creating new contacts etc. I crave security and the reassurance of 'I understand and love you', and that's precisely what he has no energy to give right now.

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You know, that's true of many different types that I've dated. When you're confident, independent, out there doing your own thing -- people want to hang out with you. When you are stressed to the point of being hysterical, emotionally clingy, demanding someone to fix your problems/take care of you -- people try to distance from you. And this happens despite the types involved.

In socionics the ENFJ INTP relationship is that of semi-duality aka "moth-to-flame". Some communication problems are expected. While they share Ti and Fe in common, INTP's most conscious functions are Ne and Si while ENFJs most conscious functions are Ni and Se (mis-match), so these types hear one another only half-way.

INTP relationship types

I know INTPs can be the nicest, smart, insightful and patient people, like you lot ^^^ everyone above (including the 'unknown personality' ) - like my boyfriend too, when his tank isn't empty. Talking to you has helped already, and that feeling that I've identified at least some of our issues, that is good. The problem lies sometimes in the fact (as Feelers are acutely aware) that identifying something, knowing something and feeling differently as a result of that knowledge are 2 different things.
But seriously, it was the first time I wrote on a forum about a problem like this, in our loooong relationship, and it did help me a great deal. Thank you.

I am INTP with an ENFJ mother, so the context is very different, but I can definitely identify a couple of things:
from my mother's point of view:
Olivia never comes out of her room and never shows any sign of whether she is happy or sad, so I rely on her grades to inform me of her emotional health. (That was very intelligent of my mom. Of course, she is an ENFJ, and her instincts are terrifyingly accurate.) It scares me that I never know what she is thinking or how she feels. (I think Mom worries I'm depressed.) I wish she would express herself more and come out of her room. (My lack of expression causes her to feel unappreciated sometimes. I feel that I really am in the wrong in that respect, however. She does a lot to keep everyone happy.)

My perspective:
Hm, I dropped the cap to this chapstick RIGHT HERE yesterday, I remember it... Oh my god, I can't find it! If Mom would just stop touching my stuff, I wouldn't LOSE things all the time! I knew right where it was, right here on the floor! ... Oh, it's on my dresser. (I always tell her to stop moving my things. She tries to help, but she doesn't realize that sometimes I don't want her help and would rather do things my own unconventional way. Where she sees a mess, I see a system.)

And at the worst, my lack of expression causes many misunderstandings because expression is so natural to my mom that she assumes my lack of expression is lack of feeling, which it completely isn't. For instance, she'll become extremely impassioned yelling at me because of my grades, saying things like "AND YOU DON'T EVEN CARE AT ALL!!!!!" and I'll keep my cool for a while before breaking down in tears, yelling something at the top of my lungs, and running out of the room. Believe me, it takes a LOT to get me to yell at the top of my lungs.

So I guess the point of this long answer is to say beware the appearance of your INTP. Maybe to avoid this particular problem (if you have it) you could tell him that the only way the relationship is going to work is if he makes an effort to express himself. I get along very well with ENFJ's until they become dramatic in my eyes and I become cold in theirs.

All I can say from experience and observation in relationships is that when stress rears it's ugly head, couples often turn on each other, no matter what types they are.

You guys sound good for each other, so I hope you work out how to solve the problems in your life and return to a more placid place.

Your INTP is probably depleted emotionally and it might take a long time to get over the stress and regenerate his resources. Sadly for you, the more he is expected to behave in a certain way, the more stress is inflicted, and the more prolonged his condition. We take stress very hard and our coping mechanisms are terrible. We bury our bad emotions under a mountain of gravel. Slowly emotions may bubble back up, often in the sporadic moments of self-loathing. Otherwise in stressful situations we go numb. During this time, we might ourselves wonder what we are doing in a relationship.

However, though the emotions and connections of the relationship may appear to have disappeared (for both INTP and partner) along with everything else, they often are in fact still very much there, rumbling underground, and certain triggers weeks, months, years later can cause explosive feeling to re-emerge.

I started feeling pissy and claustrophobic just from reading this. Moving to a whole new country with nobody else but an anti-social INTP seems really stupid.

Limonali said:

I do sense that becoming more independent is something that many times not only makes us feel better, and also tends to draw INTPs out of their caves, as they come sniffling to check on the novelty of the situation (ENFJ not moaning for contact, but disappearing happily without a word ). I think ENFJs crave novelty too, especially in social world. Yet when I find myself so stressed, I think it really difficult to just go ahead, happily creating new contacts etc. I crave security and the reassurance of 'I understand and love you', and that's precisely what he has no energy to give right now.

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Hmm my INTP friend is a female but I'd still like to chime in.

To be honest, when I first met her, I was exactly like you. I would want to talk to her for as long as possible when I was really stressed out. At first it visibly annoyed her. But now, I don't seem to go to her near as much and in fact she is the one who comes to me when she is stressed now.

What changed was that, in all fairness to her, she took the time to understand how my Fe works. I think she really wanted to make sure she could be a good enough friend to me so she found ways to accept and embrace our differences. As did I.

Although I like your suggestion I don't think it'll work, I think you have to try and show him in a more logical way why you reach out to him. I don't know of any INTP who wouldn't do anything in their power for the sake of their relationship. Maybe logically describe to him why your dominant Fe is the way it is doing stressful times. He probably doesn't understand it imo to be honest.

Your situation is quite funny because lately I prefer to be alone when I'm stressed out. I don't like to hear other people saying things that I would deem counterproductive or counterintuitive so I prefer to meditate instead. I only really seek people out when I want something new and exciting or I'm feeling trolly. But my INTP comes to me all the time, drives me nuts.

Also, I think the main reason I would be unhappy with an INTP is if I felt I had to baby them. I hate those kind of relationship dynamics a lot but from my experience, I've really had to take on the parent role to my INTP when it comes to helping her with her emotions. That gets annoying and boring fast because she pushes me into this role, not that I want to be in it.

Though I guess she could say she really had to parent me to help me learn teh gr8 logicz.

Anyway, I hope it works out for you guys, best of luck

Alright, now that I've actually taken the time to read and think about this.... I've also seen these type of relationship problems before, as my mother(ENFJ) married my step-father(INTJ) when I was four. We moved with him to Canada(Canada is the best so suck it) where my mother had no friends or family. She had just been through a death a year early, she had moved 3000 miles away, she had a new husband, and so on and so forth. The first two years of their marriage was a living hell, she would get sad and lonely and would pressure him to console her, he would feel stressed and run the other way.

What had to happen was this:. My mother(as hard as it was for her) had to realize first what the problem was(you already have this step down, so...). Second: They both had to sit down with a counselor and walk through the steps it would take to meet each others' needs, this included him giving her at least an hour of attention a day, and her giving him the space to do his thing, whatever that was. Third: When a fight broke out, my step-father had to learn not to blame her for everything(INTJs have difficulty taking responsibility for things), and my mother had to learn not to point out all his flaws(a natural thing for ENFJs).

As an INTP I can add this: be brutally honest. I want a partner who's not going to beat around the bush, if you want or need something, tell me, I can take whatever it is that you need to say, and if it's out in the air I can process it and give a response. If you don't say what you need, I'm not going to know, I'm not a god-damn psychic.
When you tell your INTP what you expect, don't pressure him for an immediate answer, he may need to process what you've said, and figure out what the best course of action is. What you will find is this: he will accommodate your needs as best he can, as he is invested in you and your relationship. He may not be able to meet your every need right away, but he's going to do everything he can for you.

Just a few things, but they will help.

Thanks all again. Thanks 'that' for spending a bit more time on this

You're right about 'pointing flaws' as a natural thing for ENFJ. I also figured out the 'say what I want and give him time to process' thing some time ago, I know it works miracles not to pressure INTP into any sort of immediate response. When stressed I might still do it foolishly, but hey, I am learning.

Most of the time we are a good couple, so as much as I would just LOVE to be a twat, thank you that was so kind of you... I am afraid it does not apply.

mmm... I know one ENFJ and INTP couple and I think they are generally doing really fine, but it may be a bit rocky for them sometimes as well - in pretty the same way as you described above...

what I know about INTPs is that they may have similar need of space when dealing with stress as INFPs do... See, I have this ENFJ sister, who is the best sister of mine and the best friend of mine as well, but sometimes we will argue about little things. Later on I would discover that I couldn't read her intentions very well. I would feel she is being a little too pushy towards me, but she would do things or try to encourage me to do something, because she believes that I can do it. So, maybe sometimes you also, like my sister - see the good way of dealing with some problem and that you both have capacity to do so and maybe you try a little too hard to encourage him?

OK, I will keep my post short as it was supposed to be ENFJ-INTP relationship, not my egocentric ENFJ-INFP point of view
Good luck anyways!

My INTP gets upset with me when I tell him that I need empathy or reassurance. He says that I am going against the relationship and not thinking positively. I try to explain that empathy and reassurance are some of the main things I want from a relationship. He says that it is a problem with me. He knows that he is an INTP, but he does not recognize the validity of Myers-Briggs. He does not seem to understand how my ENFJness is at work and does not want to understand, and he is making me wrong and blaming me for being how I am. It is really stressing me out.

When your INTPs gas tank is burned out might I suggest holding your intp. Snuggle up in his arms and just be there. Don't talk about your day or feelings or ask him anything or turn it into a make out session. Don't make any demands except that he be there with you. As an INTP I can do that. I've already spent a good part of the relationship questioning what the highly socially sophisticated ENFJ sees in my INTP weirdness. If you are making demands for attention when I just don't have the energy to give I end up feeling inadequate to the task of the relationship. More negative energy draining the emotional tank more reason to withdraw. Holding her makes me feel like I am meeting her needs for support and affection. It is restorative almost meditative for the INTP. It gets me out of my head. I am focusing on her immediate presence instead of the events of the day or what is going to happen tomorrow or spending more energy avoiding her demands so that I have time to recoup the energy I've already spent. A few hours of quite cuddle time fills up the emotional gas tank faster than anything else.

You see INTPs are really simple creatures. I suspect that’s what the ENFJ intuitively senses in us. There are no byzantine emotional agendas to contend with once you get home. Everyone else wants you to reflect back to them some emotional need with you losing yourself in the process. As givers you are all too willing to give up your identity until you feel used. Your INTP just wants to be with you. Holding him excepting him in his INTP weirdness without demands assures him you just want to be with him as much as he wants to be with you. And isn’t nice for you to have a place where you can step outside the emotional maelstrom that is the ENFJ psyche and just be with your SO as yourself? Nothing for you to reflect back, no expectations, no failure, no slight given or perceived no what did they mean by that…

Gas tanks all filled up now lets go do that weird quirky enfj/intp thing we do together that no one else really gets.

I'm not with that INTP anymore. After we broke up, he threatened to call my father and friends and say bad things about me. He also threatened to distribute a sex tape of me. Bad news! I blocked him on Facebook, and I think he's on to the next victim.

Limonali said:

It said that spouses (female) of (male) INTPs usually have lowest satisfaction from married life from all types. Assuming that ENFJ/INTP pairing is quite common - I have met a few myself - the question is: are we really so unhappy with our INTPs or do we just love to moan and express ourselves a lot given any opportunity? ...
Anyway, I will appreciate any insight from INTPs here.

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Wow... I'll try to help, even though I doubt I can.

You're INTP likes you for a reason, if you know what it is; I would focus on that and not your loneliness. He probably feels just as lonely but absolutely incapable of giving you what you want, and will see giving up as a better solution. Generally where my relationships fail is my unwillingness to fix a relationship once it has gone past repair. I don't like the results of that study about lover of male INTPs, it does not fill my head with positive or helpful thoughts - that would be the last thing I'd want to hear. Love is hardly about happiness, in my mind love is a mutual agreement to be together through heaven and hell (the heaven and hell known as life).

I have a couple of ENFJ friends IRL and both women are totally the best. They completely willing to travel in conversation to any place and bring a very different perspective every conversation. Unfortunately with inferior Ti, they are most apt to deprecate themselves (intelligence wise) in favor of me. ok, i am ok with deprecating oneself once and then getting on with it. But, almost every second conversation. I don't need another dom Ti. I can deal with lack of logic quite easily. What I need is difference in perspective and Ni supplies that in loads. So, that is my perspective. ENFJ women are great.

Now, for your perspective. My take is that INTP men are at their best when they are totally unstressed. Like, I mean not comparable with ENTJ, ISTJ and INTJ men. I know quite a few of these and they seem to thrive on stress. For us, low stress, slow pace of thought, no deadlines - basically everything anti-business and anti-moneymaking. If we don't get this at work, then we need it at home. And thats where the problems come in. So, my suggestion is he probably is in a high stress environment right now. And it is he who needs to figure out a way to destress. I myself find that I take on too much (ok, too much for me, normal load for an ENTJ) and then I am like sick to the guts that I took on all those deadlines. Well, actually here I am and I need to do my taxes and get my accounts to my tax advisor and I am doing anything to avoid that. Oh, thats right - another INTP thing. If we don't like something that stresses us the most. We put it of and put it off even though we cannot avoid it and ultimately it stresses us. Ever heard of "Doc" from Steinbeck's Cannery Row. It was based on Ed Rickett's. As far as I can tell, that is a classic INTP character. He would keep shoving the mail on top of one another and his theory was that if no one knocked on his door after a month that previous months pile could be trashed sight unseen. I currently have a pile of 1 months mail lying around and I know somewhere in there is an emissions inspection notice.

So, there you go. simple prescription, destress your INTP and he will go with wherever you want.