Who is better as a manager. Why?
ENTJ vs ESTJ as corporate managers
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Who is better as a manager. Why?
As a group, intuitives give sensors a lot of crap, lol. But the fact is, you need someone to do the detail-end, because unattended details have a nasty habit of coming back around to bite you on the ass. Even the grandest building is crap, if the foundation is cracked and the building materials are of dubious quality. This is broadly true of any project.
If you honestly can't keep track of the details, you need someone who can.
This is something which irritates me at times about much younger intuitives (those whose Sensing functions are receiving very, very little play yet). You need to see the possible, yes, but you also need to understand where your feet are right now, and the nature of the materials and tools you have to hand.
If you honestly can't keep track of the details, you need someone who can.
This is something which irritates me at times about much younger intuitives (those whose Sensing functions are receiving very, very little play yet). You need to see the possible, yes, but you also need to understand where your feet are right now, and the nature of the materials and tools you have to hand.
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It’s not a question of who is better. It’s sort of comparing apples and oranges.
We each tend to excel in management positions, but we have different approaches and skill sets. It just depends on which is more appropriate to the position.
ESTJs tend to be more detail oriented - they excel at HOW something should be done - logistics (standards)
ENTJs tend to be more results oriented - they excel at WHY something should be done - strategy (systems)
So, for example, an ESTJ is probably going to be more effective in a management position where everything has to be “just so”. Attention to detail is required, both by underlings, and the manager. HOW you do that [thing] is important. It needs to be uniform, and consistent. The person overseeing it has to be efficient, organized, and routinized. They’re better at the day-to-day process. The positive side of that: ESTJs get things done. The negative side of that is that their underlings will find them to occasionally be nit-picky, and unyielding, and constantly looking over their shoulders. At their best: you’ll learn a lot from them - they tend to be great teachers.
The ENTJ is probably going to be more effective in a management position where fresh approaches or ideas are needed optimize long-term efficiency - results oriented. They aren’t as picky about HOW something gets done, more that it gets done in the alloted time and to a certain standard. Their way of overseeing is also efficient, but it’s more with an eye to what the ultimate goal is, and to keep pushing forward toward that goal. The positive side of that: ENTJs are more open to hearing your suggestions if changes need to be made - if you’ve got a better way of doing this, let’s hear it. The negative side of that is that they’ll push you just as hard as they push themselves. Their underlings will find them to be occasionally driven, demanding, and insensitive to the individual. At their best: they’ll help you achieve more than you thought possible - they tend to be great mentors.
This.
Basically, ENTJ great at strategy, while ESTJ great at execution.
Tbh, xSTJ good at low tech company, that not need require innovation, like food, beverage, everyday necesities, traditional service, etc.
Example: Warren Buffet.
While, xNTJ good at hi tech company, that need constant innovation, software, machine, online services, etc.
Example: Bill Gates.
As a manager ... only ENTJ can lead and motivate me. ESTJ always wants to make me rebel, they just scream and refuse to own up their own bullshit. It makes me lose care, motivation and interest VERY fast.
As far as i've seen it though is that ESTJ is CEO (taking the heat and calling the shots) and ENTJs are managers, but I think that partly has to do with the fact that ENTJs can deal very well with people as a resource, whereas ESTJs just think that blunt steamrolling lasts forever.
As far as i've seen it though is that ESTJ is CEO (taking the heat and calling the shots) and ENTJs are managers, but I think that partly has to do with the fact that ENTJs can deal very well with people as a resource, whereas ESTJs just think that blunt steamrolling lasts forever.
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So, I grew up with an ESTJ father (also military officer) and it took me decades to learn I was not the same as him (even though, I thought I was).
ESTJ inherently feel their way through a situation, constantly basing their new environment on previous experiences. If they cannot base their current situation on a previous experience, be prepared for a rough go as they learn how to adapt to a “new normal” (no matter how small)...and realize, that some can’t.
ENTJs inherently have the ability to see the world “as it is,” and are able to “go with the flow” of things and subconsciously know the direction to go. This comes from their innate ability to know how something is going to “play out.” Now, I don’t think we’re all Force users, or are able to see into the future; but we do have that 6th sense (if you will) of undeniable trust in our intuition. Are we 100% all the time, of course not; but we’re closer to being right then not (hence, some of the ego...the rest we’re just born with).
Corporate managers are needed at all levels to achieve simple project and make stepping stone goals come to life. It’s easy to do this as an ESTJ, after you have learned the ropes of your organization and know how they systems do run. As an ENTJ, constantly trying to improve the systems around you to “be better,” I see us as less succsssful corporate manager and much more capable senior level (big thinker) leaders. Don’t ask me how to take the hill, and win the battle. Ask me what sacrifices need to be made to win the war.
The depth of the second question is what makes ENTJs better a strategic thinking and employment of resources across multiple echelons; where as ESTJs (God bless ‘em) are not quite as capable of “getting out of their own way.”
ESTJ inherently feel their way through a situation, constantly basing their new environment on previous experiences. If they cannot base their current situation on a previous experience, be prepared for a rough go as they learn how to adapt to a “new normal” (no matter how small)...and realize, that some can’t.
ENTJs inherently have the ability to see the world “as it is,” and are able to “go with the flow” of things and subconsciously know the direction to go. This comes from their innate ability to know how something is going to “play out.” Now, I don’t think we’re all Force users, or are able to see into the future; but we do have that 6th sense (if you will) of undeniable trust in our intuition. Are we 100% all the time, of course not; but we’re closer to being right then not (hence, some of the ego...the rest we’re just born with).
Corporate managers are needed at all levels to achieve simple project and make stepping stone goals come to life. It’s easy to do this as an ESTJ, after you have learned the ropes of your organization and know how they systems do run. As an ENTJ, constantly trying to improve the systems around you to “be better,” I see us as less succsssful corporate manager and much more capable senior level (big thinker) leaders. Don’t ask me how to take the hill, and win the battle. Ask me what sacrifices need to be made to win the war.
The depth of the second question is what makes ENTJs better a strategic thinking and employment of resources across multiple echelons; where as ESTJs (God bless ‘em) are not quite as capable of “getting out of their own way.”
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Yup.
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Care to share some personal experiences? I'd like to know because I've never known an ESTJ that was irresponsible and full of BS.
I know a lot of ESTJs. I've been extremely fortunate (or just see the good things they have to offer?), because I've never known a rotten ESTJ. ESTJs make the finest bosses, teachers, and managers. I've had plenty of bad work experiences to know what is good when I see it. And the ESTJs I've been under brought something to the table that was no comparison to any other thing out there.
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Care to to give an example?
If the company has a lot of puzzle to solve, problems to solve, innovation to make, need to come up with new ways of working, need to develop new channels or new businesses or be creative, ENTJ is better.
If the company is established, and the 'what and how' are known and only need to implement, ESTJ will be much better because ENTJ will be bored by it.
If the company is established, and the 'what and how' are known and only need to implement, ESTJ will be much better because ENTJ will be bored by it.
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The Estjs I know tend to like to do things that are very much planned and things that they’ve practiced or rehearsed. Things that they are used to doing or seeing. Things that are comfortable. It’s a strength because they see their environment and see what needs to be done to make things run smoothly.
The ENTJ I’m friends with will take an idea and bash it around and come up with a plan and walk you through hypothetical steps in order to get it done.
They see what needs to be brought to the environment in order for it to become more efficient.
While ESTJs will use what’s already there to make things as efficient as possible.
As my ENTJ friend says, “There’s a thousand ways to do a thing.”
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An ESTJ is one of my last choices concerning the line manager I would like to work for.
Prone to micromanaging, distrustful, loving office politics. ESTJs represent for me many traits I hate in corporate environments, although I can see how they can make them climb the career ladder quickly. Honestly, ESTJ stands for me for what is wrong in the corporate world: for silly following of rules instead of implementing reasonable improvements for processes to run in a smoother way and employees to be happier. Bill Lumbergh from "Office Space" is probably an ESTJ.
ENTJs are great and I could work with them anytime. What a pity there are so few of them/us.
Outside of business I have some close ESTJ friends, but when it comes down to work or shared interests, I have YET to see an ESTJ admit to their own faults or shortcomings when things get screwed up. And in the rare event that they (partially) do - they don't without deflecting, downplaying or manipulating the context and try to get a counter-shot at me, of which often it is not even related to the case at hand. It is very tacky and hypocritical most of the time. It's a waste of goodwill, energy and time. Sometimes they could just fix the problem with said energy and time without making a fuss and ruining the atmosphere or work relationships. It's like de-synergy.
ENTJs have been rough on me too, but when they / things get screwed up they would admit it and take part of the responsibility. Then it is mutually dealt with and we immediately put our time and energy to solutions, where usually they lead the way. Afterwards all is fixed and appreciates the cooperation.
@TheTraveller7 - I relate to what you wrote in addition to all this. Micromanaging is the last thing I would look for, but if that was required i'd follow up. Office politics is also a good point, though i'm not sure if ENTJs shy away from some sly games on the sides every now and then as well, if strategic.
But for the love of god, ESTJs have to dare to admit their own shortcomings when things go bad. Even my ESTJ-ex-colleague that held a similar position as me did the EXACT same things as described above, it doesn't limit to manager or CEOs only. I can deal with it my own ways, I know how to defuse their tempers, but that doesn't mean I agree with it or think highly of them in workspaces.
Agree w/ the STJ shortcomings thing. It's Like, "this is the way it is and so why would I apologize".
This is why the misconception that ENTJs lack empathy makes zero sense - the reason our plans work is we try to factor in other outcomes which requires empathy.
I'd be interested in hearing about ENTJ office politics. To me it's about forming good relationships with the right people in the right capacity. I think of it as resource allocation not backstabbing unless you're really in my way. If the latter, I will make sure you're removed from anyone or anything useful I'm involved in, and people will know why.
This is why the misconception that ENTJs lack empathy makes zero sense - the reason our plans work is we try to factor in other outcomes which requires empathy.
I'd be interested in hearing about ENTJ office politics. To me it's about forming good relationships with the right people in the right capacity. I think of it as resource allocation not backstabbing unless you're really in my way. If the latter, I will make sure you're removed from anyone or anything useful I'm involved in, and people will know why.
I agree with that, also seeing what I posted earlier
The office politics was more directed at ESTJ's. I've never ''caught'' an ENTJ doing it first-hand, so to say, but i've heard my old ENTJ manager talk about it a lot when he was discussing his meetings with higher ups.nicoloco90 said:
Come to think of it, I've mainly only really steamrolled over STJs. In some cases I had to involve office politics to make sure the pain to the business was properly felt across. But if you're talking junior employees, ENTJs don't need to steamroll there as we're good at placing people in positions that make the most of what they're good at. If useless, just execute stuff.
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