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richard nixon

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5s do better than average on IQ tests, but many don't get like 140 or higher (the Unabomber's Performance IQ was only 124, Timothy McVeigh's IQ was only 126, and Albert Speer's IQ was only 128). A lot of 5s and 6w5s have poor spatial ability while pretty much all 8w7s have good spatial ability as do 1w9s. A lot of it has to do with 5s generally being introverts and introverts doing worse on IQ tests because they're timed (extraverts think more slowly). 6s aren't great diagnosticians. 7s aren't usually intellectual; they don't focus on one area of study; they're under-represented in academia. 8s place a high value on thinking for themselves, and Francis Galton was an 8w7. Jefferson was a 1w9 and one of the smartest persons to ever live.

So, 8w7s and 1w9s are actually just as logical as members of the head triad. My guess is that 8w7 is the subtype that has the highest percentage of members who score in the top .1% on nonverbal IQ subtests followed by 1w9s, then 5w4s or 5w6s. 1w2s have less original insights than 1w9s and don't have as good of spatial ability even if their spatial ability isn't worse than members of the head triad; 1w2s also seem to be the most common of all the subtypes.
 
I'm an extraverted 5w6 ENTP. I took an IQ test in 1997. I scored 128, but I was told at the time that I also had untreated ADHD, and therefore my score might be higher, given the symptoms interfering with my patience, ease of frustration, and ability to attend to the problems. It really doesn't bother me too much. I'm still nearly 2 standard deviations above the norm. I've always considered myself more clever than smart. Just smart enough to be considered mischievous, but not enough to be maniacal.

Also, it seems to me that very high IQ people usually have a lot of trouble relating to others. There's an almost sociopathic nature to them. The smarter people seem so isolated because so few understand them completely. I'm not sure I'd consider that a "gift."

To be honest, I don't think there's any sort of hard correlation between dominant Enneagram centers and IQ. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination. There will be people in every center that score better than those of other centers.
 
Is op a 1 or 8? I can see 1's being smart since they're the most headlike gutype but not really 8 who can sometimes hate intellectualism. And you listed a few examples of 5's but not the genius ones like Einstein (160-190), Tesla (160-310), Elon Musk (155) ect. Agree with you about 7's being the least intelligent head type due to lacking focus and being associated with ESxP's. Probably what makes 1's smart is that they're very focused on learning specialized skills.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
Is op a 1 or 8? I can see 1's being smart since they're the most headlike gutype but not really 8 who can sometimes hate intellectualism. And you listed a few examples of 5's but not the genius ones like Einstein (160-190), Tesla (160-310), Elon Musk (155) ect. Agree with you about 7's being the least intelligent head type due to lacking focus and being associated with ESxP's. Probably what makes 1's smart is that they're very focused on learning specialized skills.
I'm either a 1 or a 2. I'd guess 1w2. I thought I was a 6 when I first read the description on the enneagram institute's website then I thought 1, then 2w1 very briefly and then 1 for quite some time, now I'm not 100% sure but like I just said, I'd guess I'm a 1 core. My composite intelligence score on the RIAS was 77 so that's probably the best evidence for 2.

I still think the smartest 8w7s are every bit as smart as the smartest 1w9s, probably more so (although 1w9 Ron Paul was probably smarter than 8w7 Newt Gingrich); I think 8w7 is probably the smartest subtype (they tend to be more groundbreaking in science than 1w9s), they're the most impersonal of all the subtypes so they rely on their heads for that reason and so they must be used to it and the best at it. 1w2s aren't really known for being intellectual and especially not known for having great insights, just like 8w9s aren't known for being strong intellectuals but 8w7s very frequently are, especially among females.
 
If we're going by known correlations between personality traits and intelligence, 7w8 would probably end up containing the most smart people, though 8w7's a decent bet as well. Ones would be more likely to be smart in lay terms - there's some things we call "being smart" that aren't actually correlated with psychometric intelligence - self-control and ability to delay gratification being one of those things, and it's a trait Ones are high on.
 
There are different forms of IQ measurement, so you could be comparing results from different systems when talking about people from different time periods and in different studies.
I'm not certain I could forecast which one of the two triads would win in a study. 1s are an intellectual type and some 9s can be very bright. I'd say 8 is the triad's weak link. They can be very smart, of course, but in a study would probably have a lower number of individuals with superior intelligence. 6s and 7s can be so varied intellectually that it would be a close race.
I've heard it said that Ashkenazi Jews have lower spatial intelligence while scoring high in other forms of intelligence. I've no idea if that could be Enneagram related.
 
5s do better than average on IQ tests, but many don't get like 140 or higher (the Unabomber's Performance IQ was only 124, Timothy McVeigh's IQ was only 126, and Albert Speer's IQ was only 128). A lot of 5s and 6w5s have poor spatial ability while pretty much all 8w7s have good spatial ability as do 1w9s. A lot of it has to do with 5s generally being introverts and introverts doing worse on IQ tests because they're timed (extraverts think more slowly). 6s aren't great diagnosticians. 7s aren't usually intellectual; they don't focus on one area of study; they're under-represented in academia. 8s place a high value on thinking for themselves, and Francis Galton was an 8w7. Jefferson was a 1w9 and one of the smartest persons to ever live.

So, 8w7s and 1w9s are actually just as logical as members of the head triad. My guess is that 8w7 is the subtype that has the highest percentage of members who score in the top .1% on nonverbal IQ subtests followed by 1w9s, then 5w4s or 5w6s. 1w2s have less original insights than 1w9s and don't have as good of spatial ability even if their spatial ability isn't worse than members of the head triad; 1w2s also seem to be the most common of all the subtypes.
Interesting stuff, but where is the info coming from? Enneagram and spatial ability? Posited correlations, sure, but even getting reasonable internal much less external validity on testing Enneagram types' cognitive abilities... not to mention the problems inherent with IQ as a means of measuring cognitive ability...

If anything I think it's an easier argument just to say that 5-6-7 is the thinking triad because we all struggle with our relationship with thought. We all overthink, and that's a great way to lose sight of how to think efficiently and effectively.
 
There are different forms of IQ measurement, so you could be comparing results from different systems when talking about people from different time periods and in different studies.
I'm not certain I could forecast which one of the two triads would win in a study. 1s are an intellectual type and some 9s can be very bright. I'd say 8 is the triad's weak link. They can be very smart, of course, but in a study would probably have a lower number of individuals with superior intelligence. 6s and 7s can be so varied intellectually that it would be a close race.
I've heard it said that Ashkenazi Jews have lower spatial intelligence while scoring high in other forms of intelligence. I've no idea if that could be Enneagram related.
Interesting stuff, but where is the info coming from? Enneagram and spatial ability? Posited correlations, sure, but even getting reasonable internal much less external validity on testing Enneagram types' cognitive abilities... not to mention the problems inherent with IQ as a means of measuring cognitive ability...

If anything I think it's an easier argument just to say that 5-6-7 is the thinking triad because we all struggle with our relationship with thought. We all overthink, and that's a great way to lose sight of how to think efficiently and effectively.
We do know how personality correlates with intelligence, there's no need to posit it. As far as those correlates go:
7 would probably be the at the top, followed by 8w7, 4, 5w4 with the order being hard to suss out and differences probably irrelevant. 5w6 would likely end up about where 5w4 does, 8w9 less than 8w7, but we don't have good profiles for those, it's a bit of speculation based on the other wing type on my part.

not to mention the problems inherent with IQ as a means of measuring cognitive ability...
Hm?
 
We do know how personality correlates with intelligence, there's no need to posit it. As far as those correlates go:
7 would probably be the at the top, followed by 8w7, 4, 5w4 with the order being hard to suss out and differences probably irrelevant. 5w6 would likely end up about where 5w4 does, 8w9 less than 8w7, but we don't have good profiles for those, it's a bit of speculation based on the other wing type on my part.
But again... where is this coming from... data? Extrapolation?

Plenty of concerns with IQ as a measure of cognitive ability. First - there's more than one IQ test out there. Second - the Binet-Simon test, arguably the first IQ test, was developed to identify students needing special education; 100+ years down the road, studies indicate that IQ scores strongly school positively correlate with SAT scores, yet there is not an overwhelming amount of study regarding g, the general intelligence that IQ is supposed to measure, and academic achievement or achievement in later life (furthermore - how to define/categorize achievement, exactly, when it looks different for different individuals) - which also leads into the question of whether higher internal intelligence necessarily correlates with better external outcomes (which also leads to the question of what "intelligence", exactly, entails). Third, the issue of IQ across cultures - different ethnic groups and/or cultures scoring differently - external validity issues, internal, or different groups having different average IQs? Last thing I will mention - though not the only other concern - "intelligences" that are not well accounted for by IQ, like musical ability, artistic ability, emotional and social intelligence... it's not that IQ is useless, it just may be mis-used and/or over-applied. IMO it should be treated like the imperfect tool it is, not like a concrete marker. It's more like taking the MBTI than measuring one's height - an indicator, rather than a strict measure.
 
Body types vary greatly. 9s in particular can be an extremely mixed bag when it comes to IQ. 8s tend to be above average but usually not as intelligent as the 7s on average. 1s also vary as well but I don't know any 1s, so my experience with the intelligence of 1s is limited.

8s views on IQ and intelligence varies greatly by race. In all very biased ways. Guess which race 8s don't want to quantify IQ with intelligence?
 
But again... where is this coming from... data? Extrapolation?
The types have average Big 5 profiles calculated by people who had been first manually typed by the EI staff and then given a personality questionnaire

From there, we know how personality traits correlate with intelligence (they mostly don't very much, except for Openness/Intellect), and so all else being equal we can make a decent guess as to which way people of a type lean to, on average.

Plenty of concerns with IQ as a measure of cognitive ability. First - there's more than one IQ test out there. Second - the Binet-Simon test, arguably the first IQ test, was developed to identify students needing special education; 100+ years down the road, studies indicate that IQ scores strongly school positively correlate with SAT scores, yet there is not an overwhelming amount of study regarding g, the general intelligence that IQ is supposed to measure, and academic achievement or achievement in later life (furthermore - how to define/categorize achievement, exactly, when it looks different for different individuals) - which also leads into the question of whether higher internal intelligence necessarily correlates with better external outcomes (which also leads to the question of what "intelligence", exactly, entails). Third, the issue of IQ across cultures - different ethnic groups and/or cultures scoring differently - external validity issues, internal, or different groups having different average IQs? Last thing I will mention - though not the only other concern - "intelligences" that are not well accounted for by IQ, like musical ability, artistic ability, emotional and social intelligence... it's not that IQ is useless, it just may be mis-used and/or over-applied. IMO it should be treated like the imperfect tool it is, not like a concrete marker. It's more like taking the MBTI than measuring one's height - an indicator, rather than a strict measure.
The first concern is something scientists have pretty unsurprisingly thought about. It's technically possible that different intelligence tests wouldn't measure the same thing. To test that, you'd have to give the same set of people multiple different intelligence tests, calculate the g factors for each one and see if they are similar. This study has been done. The g factors correlated with each other at 0.98-1, if memory serves. They were the same thing.

Secondly, there is a huge amount of research on g/General Cognitive Ability. You just don't hear much about it, but it's been correlated to a huge number of things - school success, work, life outcomes like criminality, disease, likelihood of dying in a car accident. Scientists are exploring its relation to different personality traits at ever more granular level, the structure of intelligence differences between people has been proposed to not fit the common fluid-crystallized model (which is a decent model for how things happen inside a person, but the differences in ability between people seem to differ along the lines of verbal, perceptual/nonverbal and the ability to mentally rotate three-dimensional objects - this last one running contrary to the assumptions of the researchers who originally discovered the new VPR model), neuroimaging research is constantly being done to gain insight into the physical correlates and possible ultimate causes of intelligence (turns out the brains of more intelligent people use less energy rather than more, as the researchers initially assumed).

Higher intelligence absolutely correlates to better outcomes - more education, all else being equal, better health and longevity, less chance of dying in a car accident, less risk of criminality, incarceration, dropping out of school, long-term unemployment, women having illegitimate children, and the list goes on. Wikipedia lists general cognitive ability as predicting performance in "every kind of work studied to date".

As far as group differences go, they plainly exist, and IQ seems to be similarily predictive for eg. Black people living in Africa as it is for a pile of random ********. What the causes of the observed score differences are is a massively gnarly topic that is hard to understand and where words have to be chosen carefully - not out of any sense of propriety, but simply for the sake of saying anything correct. To say the evidence is complicated is an understatement.

As far as musical ability and the like go, there are valued human abilities that are nevertheless not intelligence, per se. People like to call them that but it mostly muddies up language, while psychometrically what is and what is not intelligence is quite clear. As far as IQ being misused, yes, definitely. Over-applied is kind of a weird claim when the trait in question is related to damn near anything you can think of, even if it's not the sole or main player in many.

As far as the height comparison goes, it very much is like measuring your height - the ruler has to be a little more indirect is all.
 
I should probably knock off a real IQ test and see how I fare. I did get 180+ in a BS online test. I also seem to be the only ENTP 2w1 going around although I was probably more of a natural 5w4 if my early life hadn't been so messed up.
 
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This is interesting, and something I hadn't considered. As a 1w9 I have a 132 IQ (or at least used to), but am virtually an idiot savant, having min-maxed my stats, haha. I thus get along best with people in the 150-160 range.
As such, some of the most intelligent people I've known included two 1w9s (one I'd have placed at about my level, and the other easily over 150) and a 9w1 (with an IQ of nearly 170).
The most intelligent person I've ever known was seemingly a 4 or 5, but she did sometimes question if she might not be a 1. Don't know her IQ, but she was virtually superhuman.
Also, my childhood best friend tested and presented himself as INTJ, but I've since come to suspect he was just an extremely intelligent ISTJ--157 IQ--as he had a remarkable wealth of knowledge and skill, but completely lacked in abstraction. I also suspect he was a 1.
And while most 8w7 don't seem to understand me (and always want to fight me over it) I did know one who claimed to score over 150; I doubt her sincerity in that, comparing to others of that level, but without a doubt she was over 130 at the least, and actually had a stronger capacity for abstract reasoning than most. (this is important to me, as I tend to talk in metaphors, analogies, syllogisms and convoluted cross references that most people either take as literal, and thus gibberish, or project a completely different meaning onto to compensate for their lack of comprehension. So it means a lot to me when people who are clearly far more intelligent get me effortlessly and even praise my gibberish as brilliant)


I should probably knock off a real IQ test and see how I fare. I did get 180+ in a BS online test. I also seem to be the only ENTP 2w1 going around although I was probably more of a natural 5w4 if my early life hadn't been so messed up.
There used to be a mini-test on the Mensa site. It's not a valid IQ test, but when I took it, the outcome was surprisingly close to ones that are.
 
The types have average Big 5 profiles calculated by people who had been first manually typed by the EI staff and then given a personality questionnaire

From there, we know how personality traits correlate with intelligence (they mostly don't very much, except for Openness/Intellect), and so all else being equal we can make a decent guess as to which way people of a type lean to, on average.
Ehhh it's still not great validity. A small hand-picked selection of people, e-typed by one institution, then running Big 5 scores and correlating for intelligence.

The first concern is something scientists have pretty unsurprisingly thought about. It's technically possible that different intelligence tests wouldn't measure the same thing. To test that, you'd have to give the same set of people multiple different intelligence tests, calculate the g factors for each one and see if they are similar. This study has been done. The g factors correlated with each other at 0.98-1, if memory serves. They were the same thing.

Secondly, there is a huge amount of research on g/General Cognitive Ability. You just don't hear much about it, but it's been correlated to a huge number of things - school success, work, life outcomes like criminality, disease, likelihood of dying in a car accident. Scientists are exploring its relation to different personality traits at ever more granular level, the structure of intelligence differences between people has been proposed to not fit the common fluid-crystallized model (which is a decent model for how things happen inside a person, but the differences in ability between people seem to differ along the lines of verbal, perceptual/nonverbal and the ability to mentally rotate three-dimensional objects - this last one running contrary to the assumptions of the researchers who originally discovered the new VPR model), neuroimaging research is constantly being done to gain insight into the physical correlates and possible ultimate causes of intelligence (turns out the brains of more intelligent people use less energy rather than more, as the researchers initially assumed).

Higher intelligence absolutely correlates to better outcomes - more education, all else being equal, better health and longevity, less chance of dying in a car accident, less risk of criminality, incarceration, dropping out of school, long-term unemployment, women having illegitimate children, and the list goes on. Wikipedia lists general cognitive ability as predicting performance in "every kind of work studied to date".

As far as group differences go, they plainly exist, and IQ seems to be similarily predictive for eg. Black people living in Africa as it is for a pile of random ********. What the causes of the observed score differences are is a massively gnarly topic that is hard to understand and where words have to be chosen carefully - not out of any sense of propriety, but simply for the sake of saying anything correct. To say the evidence is complicated is an understatement.

As far as musical ability and the like go, there are valued human abilities that are nevertheless not intelligence, per se. People like to call them that but it mostly muddies up language, while psychometrically what is and what is not intelligence is quite clear. As far as IQ being misused, yes, definitely. Over-applied is kind of a weird claim when the trait in question is related to damn near anything you can think of, even if it's not the sole or main player in many.

As far as the height comparison goes, it very much is like measuring your height - the ruler has to be a little more indirect is all.
You're better versed in the subject than I expected which I greatly appreciate - not that I underestimated you personally but because in previous discussions I've had on IQ in forums the level of understanding has been comparatively unimpressive.

I suppose my point in general is I feel concern about this topic itself. Discussion on IQ of various types - some posters pulling correlations that may be the best science has to offer but others potentially pulling them out of their asses - posters come to conclusions about types and intelligence - readers may take those conclusions and apply them in life - I suppose the concern really exists with any discussion, at any time, and it's each individual's responsibility to monitor their own absorption and application of what sort of information is being put into the universe and what quality it is - I just see the topic in general as sort of a jumble of data where it's hard to segregate what is objectively observable versus what is correlation versus what is just supposition. Ultimately it's just one very small discussion amongst an incredible amount of discussions in the world. I just worry that casual readers may spoon-feed themselves with negative conclusions and mis-apply them in their practical lives. Suppose that's a danger that exists in any online discussion, though.

Eh, well, all carry on. Just the e6 wants to play Devil's advocate and point out that e-type itself isn't objective and it's worth leaving room for questioning the value of attempts to definitively link the Enneagram and an objective measure of intelligence, and room for questioning the validity of intelligence measures as well.
 
This is interesting, and something I hadn't considered. As a 1w9 I have a 132 IQ (or at least used to), but am virtually an idiot savant, having min-maxed my stats, haha. I thus get along best with people in the 150-160 range.
As such, some of the most intelligent people I've known included two 1w9s (one I'd have placed at about my level, and the other easily over 150) and a 9w1 (with an IQ of nearly 170).
The most intelligent person I've ever known was seemingly a 4 or 5, but she did sometimes question if she might not be a 1. Don't know her IQ, but she was virtually superhuman.
Also, my childhood best friend tested and presented himself as INTJ, but I've since come to suspect he was just an extremely intelligent ISTJ--157 IQ--as he had a remarkable wealth of knowledge and skill, but completely lacked in abstraction. I also suspect he was a 1.
And while most 8w7 don't seem to understand me (and always want to fight me over it) I did know one who claimed to score over 150; I doubt her sincerity in that, comparing to others of that level, but without a doubt she was over 130 at the least, and actually had a stronger capacity for abstract reasoning than most. (this is important to me, as I tend to talk in metaphors, analogies, syllogisms and convoluted cross references that most people either take as literal, and thus gibberish, or project a completely different meaning onto to compensate for their lack of comprehension. So it means a lot to me when people who are clearly far more intelligent get me effortlessly and even praise my gibberish as brilliant)


There used to be a mini-test on the Mensa site. It's not a valid IQ test, but when I took it, the outcome was surprisingly close to ones that are.
I cant say I have met anyone who was smarter than me, although one of my uni friends was close (PHD pure maths, he then went to MIT). The thing about having unlimited potential though is that it means you have the potential for unlimited failure. I’ve basically had to come to terms with the fact that I achieve nothing despite being able to understand everything. Intellect on its own can be worthless. Being able to perceive people strengths and weaknesses, especially my own, I have come to appreciate people humanity much more than their intellect. I tend to get along with people who have either High IQ or High EQ, but I can fit in anywhere. I tend to judge people based on their intent, and anyone with an ounce of selflessness can be my equal.
 
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