Personality Cafe banner
21 - 40 of 44 Posts
How can people be so cruel?
I like to explain these things ... or at least try to. Here is a theory,, in addition to the ones already mentioned. It may ramble as I'm not going back to edit it.

If cruelty is going to be explained, kindness must be also for we are whole human beings. But that is only an outside view. We are not whole human beings. Actually that one human has one being is deceiving. We have minds (brains) and those are fractured into many parts. If you don't believe this ... if you believe we are only one person, think of this:

We continually arrive at forks in the road, decision making. We have to decide which way to go. It could be either one and the one we choose makes us that person and not the other. What to have for breakfast. What to say to another. When to take out the garbage. How to feel about the news. Afghanistan. Who should be rescued? How many? Who is to be left behind? How much should we ourselves give up? Each of these makes us a different person and we realize in not going the other way, we can be at war with ourselves. Guilty if we took the wrong path; innocent if we realize one way was certainly better than the other.

These forks in the road need not be conscious. They are there regardless of whether we are able to see them. That means we can easily be troubled and not know why.

With that as a background, there is the concept which I'll call "identity." That means whatever we are, the other person is the same. We both have split personalities. We may look at the other person and see either sameness or difference. A human being is enormously complex what with all those "forks in the road." We don't realize how many are common to the other person. Whether we know it or not, we are forced to see sameness to ourselves in the other person. We can't tell the difference between ourselves and the other person. That explains society ... why we get along with everyone so well ... everyone close to us, that is. When we can't see the non-existent difference (that is, the existent sameness) between ourselves and others explains why we seek the best in others.

"I am you and you are me" ... so says @series0. It is true. But there are also differences. When we meet another, be it directly or be it hearing about them from a distance, those differences stand out. They stand out disproportionally compared to the complexity of our samenesses. There is no difference between ourself and others. That we might be at war with others, that we might be cruel, reject, or be indifferent to others is no different from the way we treat ourselves when we abandon, condemn, or kill the other path rejected in the fork in the road.

The other concept beyond identity I'll call "arrogance." Arrogance means to overrate something. We give a value to it higher than it deserves. Three gets a higher rating than two. 57,862 gets a higher rating than 9,644. Does it deserve this higher rating? We can question that. It's the same with humans. We give a higher rating to humans in general over the "lower animals." Primates get a higher rating over insects. Why? Because of the relative difficulty in identification. Arrogance is a part of our being. When the fly has the audacity (arrogance) to land on us, we crush its body with our flyswatter. We carry out a deliberate campaign to exterminate them regardless of the pain such living creatures may feel. When we encounter another human being who annoys us, we can select a part of our identity that sees the other person as arrogant as the fly. Because we are fractured human beings, we are at times able to see only the other person as we would a fly. When we can repair this fracture and to the extent we are whole, we will see others as ourselves. Then we cannot be cruel.
 
they need to think of other people as inhuman in order to shut down their empathy I think.
It's really very easy. Anyone here do or know baseball? A frequent quote is "Kill the umpire." It's yelled out in every game. What about your team versus the other team? The other team is dehumanized easily. They are thought of as an entity to be defeated, crushed, sent home with a humiliating loss. There is no sympathy for their pain. It actually means the winner has a case to be joyful. This may only be a baseball game, but games easily extend to broader life situations.
 
Sounds to me like people that hate humanity. It's just the same kind of people that think we should stop the world and go back to the stone age so that we save the planet at the cost of human lives. Psychopaths are everywhere. These people hate humanity as a whole and think the planet would be better without humans. Here's something to think about. I don't want to invoke the Godwin's law, but this seems a good time to say it. Even Hitler cared for his country and his nation. These people rank below that. They hate themselves and everybody else. You are going to find these kind of psychopaths on the left side of the political spectrum. So you could say... they are on the spectrum.

Image
 
It's just the same kind of people that think we should stop the world and go back to the stone age so that we save the planet at the cost of human lives. Psychopaths are everywhere. These people hate humanity as a whole and think the planet would be better without humans.
You mean "throw out the baby with the bathwater"?
 
It's really very easy. Anyone here do or know baseball? A frequent quote is "Kill the umpire." It's yelled out in every game. What about your team versus the other team? The other team is dehumanized easily. They are thought of as an entity to be defeated, crushed, sent home with a humiliating loss. There is no sympathy for their pain. It actually means the winner has a case to be joyful. This may only be a baseball game, but games easily extend to broader life situations.
Yeah I don't really pay attention to team sports (never liked them for some reason) but it's a good example.

People also get so worked up about their teams winning that occasionally they turn violent and riot--though I think this happens more often in Europe?

Which probably shows some principle also--that people who want to be violent will find some justification for it. It's not necessarily about the team they are on or much deeper than that, but that type of team rivalry can be used to justify/excuse violence for those who'd already want to.

Of course there are also some who get caught up in the passion and group mentality who are pulled into it, but it can be abused by those who don't really have much concern about any team involved. Either they have financial interest in sparking violence or some other. They might pretend to be super patriotic to a team or devoted to a religion etc. but their true motivations are less community oriented and more selfish (like a desire for power or just to be able to loot with impunity etc.)

Nationalism has always reminded me of sports--perhaps because they are sort of tied in the US? And I also think it gets like that in other global sports events where people root for a country, it reminds me a little too much of war which is maybe why I never liked them. Though I admire the aspiration for mastering sports and I know that most people see something in sports I've just never been able to understand...and it is fine when constructive I guess--like in games where people care about the health and fitness of the players and being responsible role models etc. So I guess if sports are an outlet for that kind of group-think impulse, they are actually a really great alternative.
 
How can people be so cruel?
I like to explain these things ... or at least try to. Here is a theory,, in addition to the ones already mentioned. It may ramble as I'm not going back to edit it.

If cruelty is going to be explained, kindness must be also for we are whole human beings. But that is only an outside view. We are not whole human beings. Actually that one human has one being is deceiving. We have minds (brains) and those are fractured into many parts. If you don't believe this ... if you believe we are only one person, think of this:

We continually arrive at forks in the road, decision making. We have to decide which way to go. It could be either one and the one we choose makes us that person and not the other. What to have for breakfast. What to say to another. When to take out the garbage. How to feel about the news. Afghanistan. Who should be rescued? How many? Who is to be left behind? How much should we ourselves give up? Each of these makes us a different person and we realize in not going the other way, we can be at war with ourselves. Guilty if we took the wrong path; innocent if we realize one way was certainly better than the other.

These forks in the road need not be conscious. They are there regardless of whether we are able to see them. That means we can easily be troubled and not know why.

With that as a background, there is the concept which I'll call "identity." That means whatever we are, the other person is the same. We both have split personalities. We may look at the other person and see either sameness or difference. A human being is enormously complex what with all those "forks in the road." We don't realize how many are common to the other person. Whether we know it or not, we are forced to see sameness to ourselves in the other person. We can't tell the difference between ourselves and the other person. That explains society ... why we get along with everyone so well ... everyone close to us, that is. When we can't see the non-existent difference (that is, the existent sameness) between ourselves and others explains why we seek the best in others.

"I am you and you are me" ... so says @series0. It is true. But there are also differences. When we meet another, be it directly or be it hearing about them from a distance, those differences stand out. They stand out disproportionally compared to the complexity of our samenesses. There is no difference between ourself and others. That we might be at war with others, that we might be cruel, reject, or be indifferent to others is no different from the way we treat ourselves when we abandon, condemn, or kill the other path rejected in the fork in the road.

The other concept beyond identity I'll call "arrogance." Arrogance means to overrate something. We give a value to it higher than it deserves. Three gets a higher rating than two. 57,862 gets a higher rating than 9,644. Does it deserve this higher rating? We can question that. It's the same with humans. We give a higher rating to humans in general over the "lower animals." Primates get a higher rating over insects. Why? Because of the relative difficulty in identification. Arrogance is a part of our being. When the fly has the audacity (arrogance) to land on us, we crush its body with our flyswatter. We carry out a deliberate campaign to exterminate them regardless of the pain such living creatures may feel. When we encounter another human being who annoys us, we can select a part of our identity that sees the other person as arrogant as the fly. Because we are fractured human beings, we are at times able to see only the other person as we would a fly. When we can repair this fracture and to the extent we are whole, we will see others as ourselves. Then we cannot be cruel.
Yeah... think about it
Finding your own self-confidence and purpose in life. Also actually achieving something, not just a dream before your demise. But also trying to appear caring to others so you wouldn't be dismissed as if you are another rejected path at the end of road? While all of these happen inside of millions of people's brains? And so much cruel and kind things happening all around the world at the same time?

My head will explode anytime soon if i don't cut all these news from aroud the world. But i keep caring about it and can't really explain why i do that. Maybe i find my purpose and self-confidence in all those mundane all-consuming news? Maybe all people who comment in those news are just like me? Maybe it's just that they are thinking out loud and i'm just swallowing it? But still i keep caring about it.
 
I like to explain these things ...
@KindaSnob! @WickerDeer Allow me to comment on my own post together with yours. The post itself style reflects my math background where I try to offer a proof of something. Such a proof may contain the logic but it may certainly lack elegance, be all over the place, certainly be hard and even unpleasant to read. Therefore most won't be interested. I'll try to simplify the idea below.

My head will explode anytime soon if i don't cut all these news from around the world. But i keep caring about it and can't really explain why i do that.
Which probably shows some principle also--that people who want to be violent will find some justification for it.
When we see someone or some peoples in pain, we can identify. They could be us. We feel their pain because for an instant we see their suffering as if we ourselves were suffering. That is our brain speaking to us. However we can't go around like that all the time else we would be thoroughly miserable. We have lots going on with ourselves beyond suffering even if some suffering is necessary. We have to allow ourselves to travel elsewhere and look at both enjoyment and other ordinary business. Just as an economical society breeds a division of labor without overlapping, our own minds do the same thing. We get involved with both fun and games and in ordinary business also.

This is a normal, supposedly emotionally and physically healthy person. Such a person can travel back and forth recognizing suffering, fun and ordinariness all as part the same world. Not so with a fractured person. It is easy to be or get to be "unhealthy." Then people get specialized, compartmentalized and appear unhealthy. Hence cruel, psychotic, obsessed, and all the other illnesses are possible.

Group attitudes, such as patriotism, building a civilization, or hatred for the enemy contain a contradiction. The contradiction is, as above, as individuals, we can get compartmentalized. But because we can see others as ourselves, when we are immersed with others who think like us, the group and us become one. Hence the ability for group charity or cruelty or rooting for a sports team, individual and group are alike. The danger is that special compartmentalization is rigid. Education on existent other compartments, the realization that we can travel back and forth is the solution.
 
@BigApplePi

That's interesting you talk about how we feel pain when we see it.

Psychologists distinguish between emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. I'd guess the more visceral "feel it when see it" is related to mirror neurons that sort of make us connect/empathize with another person when we see them.

But when it comes to imagining a person in Afghanistan, we might rely more on cognitive empathy (because it's not a single person we are interacting with in real time, but rather an abstract concept that we build in our mind based on knowledge about human nature and y'know people who live in Afghanistan.)

However, I assume that you also experience emotional empathy because to empathize with a distant person you've never met or interacted with, you are still engaging with their emotions on some level.

UGH "somatic empathy" might also be what you're talking about--perhaps seeing a person in pain and feeling the pain.

So perhaps it's cognitive empathy that's reduced when we choose not to view someone as human (or to connect with them--because we are ignoring that they share the same emotional responses as we do).

I have a hard time with the definitions of empathy because to me care is synonymous--that if you really feel something you will PERSONALLY care to some degree. Unlike someone who can predict the emotional response of another but they do not feel personally invested in it (feel the displeasure or the happiness of the other person--value the other person's emotional being?) I also feel like there are people who can care and value without being able to recognize cues or know how another feels.

Some people don't have the same range of emotion as others (people with antisocial personality disorder). But I think most people can shut off empathy because I agree with you--especially cognitive empathy would be difficult to constantly suffer because you are feeling the suffering of the entire world.

Sometimes things need to be done and empathizing isn't the most helpful thing to do in the moment so long as you've established a basic principle from the empathy (that you should not harm etc.) it is not necessary to be constantly engaging in it. I guess maybe racist principles are based on non-empathy though, or hatred. And so that's why they can be unlearned (I'm not really sure that empathy and hatred are opposites--maybe I was thinking of "love" when I was thinking of care...maybe that's the other ingredient.)

Apparently racism is learned culturally--so it can also be unlearned. Probably it's based off of false premises about other races that make them appear so different that you cannot relate, like trying to empathize with a poisonous snake, which most people simply will not do.

Hatred is kind of interesting because it seems to use the same parts of the brain that love does. But with judgment. Even apes are wired for hatred, as a means of identifying a threat and acting violently towards it. Though I imagine they are also hardwired for empathy, or else primates wouldn't be able to raise babies or live in complex social groups.

Love is often what motivates hatred as well--the perception of a threat to something that we love (and so I bet you the person who said they think animals should be rescued views Afghani people as a threat).

Empathy would tell them that Afghani people are the same as those they love, in principle (in the most meaningful ways). Or would that be compassion?
 
Psychologists distinguish between emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. I'd guess the more visceral "feel it when see it" is related to mirror neurons that sort of make us connect/empathize with another person when we see them.

But when it comes to imagining a person in Afghanistan, we might rely more on cognitive empathy (because it's not a single person we are interacting with in real time, but rather an abstract concept that we build in our mind based on knowledge about human nature and y'know people who live in Afghanistan.)
Um. Here is my take on that, but it is technical. V.S. Ramachandran speaks of "mirror neurons." I'm holding his book, "The Tell-Tale Brain" right in front of me. I never could buy his conceptt. I have a different theory that "mirror neurons" aren't necessary. The neurons in question are our own references to ourselves. When we see others, they are us and we don't realize the isolation. But maybe forget it. It sounds like quibbling.

I could say there is no such thing as "cognitive empathy" unless we see the actual person. Cognition is about sensual knowledge. We could see a person scratching and say, "I see it but so what?" Empathy IS emotional. It is a value. In my case I know factually there are people, thousands, wanting out of Afghanistan, but I feel nothing. However the news is all over showing real people (or about real people) who want out. Then I imagine individuals and cry. My brain re-lives what an individual, blurry, is going through because I somehow have experienced it myself. Because there are 1000's my mind races through a series of real imagined individuals. Sorry for the technicals.

I have a hard time with the definitions of empathy because to me care is synonymous--that if you really feel something you will PERSONALLY care to some degree. Unlike someone who can predict the emotional response of another but they do not feel personally invested in it (feel the displeasure or the happiness of the other person--value the other person's emotional being?) I also feel like there are people who can care and value without being able to recognize cues or know how another feels.
I read that as a potentially complex situation not easily subject to analysis because of the complications for all of our different experiences. My solution is to tell an "S" story over an "N" rendition and see where it goes. I've told this story on PerC somewhere but don't recall how I came to write it.

I was biking up Sixth Avenue and encountered an accident. To my horror (empathy?) a young guy was being placed in an ambulance. His very short parents were standing around watching. A separate leg went into the ambulance. A cop came along looked at the other leg off below the knee and with a look of disgust on his face picked up the leg with a boot still on, put it in a bucket of ice and presumably into the ambulance. After that I realized I shouldn't stand around and went home. I kept thinking, his parents are short. This guy will be very short. I was in shock. Why? Because I bike in heavy traffic and what if that happened to me? But that was unconscious. I only thought of the mishap. I returned the next day and asked the building doorman what had happened. He didn't want to talk about it, but revealed the young man was leaning over the trunk of his car when another car ran into him severing his legs. That happened over 10 years ago and I am far way, yet I can still feel the horror.
Do you see how we can relate your take on empathy to this story? I can think of all sorts of things to say about it but that would be too long for this post. You would have to select something specific.

I read your post up to here and have to stop. Tell me to finish reading it. Catch you later ...
 
It is sad, yes.

I think a large part of it is the out-group homogeneity effect. We tend to perceive those who are not in our “group” as being very similar to each other, and those who are in our group as being very diverse. Really, it can apply to anything, but the bias seems more rampant when it comes to race and culture.

I think when we start viewing a group as somehow different than ourselves and then reasoning that they are all the same (stereotyping or profiling, for example), it becomes so much easier to justify cruelty, because—in a way—this dehumanizes those who are not in our group.

I’m not saying this is right. It’s incredibly sad the way some people treat and talk about others, but I think this phenomenon can definitely play into some of what you are witnessing online.
 
@BigApplePi

I don't feel the same about visually seeing someone to empathize with them.

And I think it's common for people to read characters in books and empathize with them (which I believe is cognitive empathy, and I have read that cognitive empathy increases in those who read a lot of fiction). But I also think it's harder to empathize when we don't envision a person (like if we just hear numbers in terms of pandemic or Afghanistan). Even while reading a fictional character, we are still given descriptions of personal stimuli.

I do believe one can fill in the descriptions one's self with imagination. And one can empathize with an unknown person that one knows nothing about--but it would just be cognitive empathy and based on a very basic concept of a person.

Also--I just want to say that there is some possibility that you experienced a little bit of a traumatic experience when you saw the man who'd gotten injured by the car. Especially how you describe the memory and the horror feeling real as before.

I have heard that emotional stimuli can get sort of trapped in a part of the brain, which...the memory doesn't really integrate well, it just kind of remains vivid as if it's happening. That's supposed to be part of PTSD. I don't want to diagnose you, but it's not uncommon for people who witness that kind of injury to experience some trauma from it. I suppose that would be related to empathy since in your case it happened to someone else but you may have still had an empathetic traumatic response or soemthing. Or maybe not...just figured I'd mention it because paramedics and other front-line workers can have lasting effects from witnessing that kind of thing.

Edit: I also agree that empathy is related to emotion and not just cognition. I don't really understand the definition of cognitive empathy but we must be able to connect with the emotions of the person while empathizing--even if just the concept of them. And then care seems like another thing.

Also, I am sorry that you witnessed that--it sounds like it was very disturbing and impacting. I hope the guy was okay too.
 
I think those types of people who comment cruel things like that must live in comfy echo chamber. That comment is not exactly what i felt angry about the most. Because my emotional capacity was already full with having hard time prosessing all those news on my own and was already aware that there are so many horrible people like that. We all in real life met someone who would absolutely comment that kind of thing, right? What angers me is those likes... those people who are creating their own echo chambers. Someone who commented that in the first place now would think that "Well, there are people who think like me. Those who told me it was wrong in real life were just being condescending prick." We all would agree that it's not healthy to read comment sections of those cheap online articles that leave comments open for clout.
 
True cruelty is the people who invaded Afghanistan based on some trumped up charges, killed a bunch of civilians, robbed them blind of their national resources, and then proclaimed themselves saviours. As heartless as the commenter seems, he is far less harmful to the Afghans than the so called humanitarians. Unlike them, he sounds like he'd be all to happy to leave them be.
 
How can people be so cruel?
I like to explain these things ... or at least try to. Here is a theory,, in addition to the ones already mentioned. It may ramble as I'm not going back to edit it.
Same as me. I answer and it's done. I get that. Maybe it's cruel?

If cruelty is going to be explained, kindness must be also for we are whole human beings.
I think you have to define them first. If you look at the accepted placid definitions you will discover they are often less than best.

But that is only an outside view. We are not whole human beings.
If by whole (undefined) you mean perfect, then yes. If by whole you mean we are moral agents with more than animal levels of expression, then you are wrong and we are 'whole', most of us.

So, what do you mean by whole?

Actually that one human has one being is deceiving. We have minds (brains) and those are fractured into many parts. If you don't believe this ... if you believe we are only one person, think of this:

We continually arrive at forks in the road, decision making. We have to decide which way to go. It could be either one and the one we choose makes us that person and not the other. What to have for breakfast. What to say to another. When to take out the garbage. How to feel about the news. Afghanistan. Who should be rescued? How many? Who is to be left behind? How much should we ourselves give up? Each of these makes us a different person and we realize in not going the other way, we can be at war with ourselves. Guilty if we took the wrong path; innocent if we realize one way was certainly better than the other.
The state of things IS NOT moral in that way, or immoral in that way. The choice is the thing that IS immoral or moral. And the price of that choice is payed immediately. There is zero delay at all. And forgiveness is eternal for genuine regret and attempts at better choices after that, called having learned one's lesson, and having earned, the ONLY thing you can really earn in life, wisdom.

These forks in the road need not be conscious.
Correct! Consciousness and its degree are choices along the road to perfection. If one is not perfectly conscious, then moral duty obliges one to try harder, until one is no longer capable of doing so. As capability fades what is 'better' fades also and this is ok. But lack of 'consciousness' is no excuse at all. We work with what we have. And we are all still bound by moral duty and punished by ourselves for our failures (immoral choices).

They are there regardless of whether we are able to see them. That means we can easily be troubled and not know why.
Knowing is a way to succeed or fail. Not knowing IS failing of a sort, immoral. Persistent truth IS ALWAYS there, objective. It IS knowable, just not easily, not without next to impossible effort. So be it!

Being 'troubled' is the red flag we SHOULD process. Not processing it is a terrible immoral choice. There is NO TIME for such processing other than the eternal moment of NOW.

With that as a background, there is the concept which I'll call "identity." That means whatever we are, the other person is the same. We both have split personalities.
These 'splits' are relevant ONLY as errors. Truth and moral duty remain objective. So all deviation from that is excused only as an error that must be owned. Personality, identity, are HOW YOU ARE IN ERROR.

We may look at the other person and see either sameness or difference. A human being is enormously complex what with all those "forks in the road." We don't realize how many are common to the other person. Whether we know it or not, we are forced to see sameness to ourselves in the other person.
This statement in isolation is wrong. We also are forced to compare, to judge, to see the differences. Seeing only the sameness or only the differences is wrong. One MUST morally see both.

We can't tell the difference between ourselves and the other person.

This is nonsenically incorrect.

Most people see the differences BEFORE the sameness. That is simple fact. 'You are not me and I am not you' comes to awareness far BEFORE the truth of 'you are me and I am you'. There are more order apologists in the world than chaos apologists. Type 6 the orderly identity mongers are THE most prevalent type in the world.

That explains society ... why we get along with everyone so well ... everyone close to us, that is. When we can't see the non-existent difference (that is, the existent sameness) between ourselves and others explains why we seek the best in others.
These one-sided expressions of yours are a horrible indulgence. You need to stop being so egregious with them. We have also a TON of disdain for ourselves and thus anyone who likes us or helps us. This is chaos-apology, enneatype 4. Despite the need to be special ALL desire types feel unworthy in the main and if you put them up, that unworthiness reflects onto you. So your one-sided statements are NOT wisdom. They are anti-wisdom. I have warned you of this many times. People may understand you. They may agree more with you than me. That will not help you. You and they will still be wrong. Make all-sided statements to be wise. Include every virtue. Speaking on one is the type 4 delusion, focusing on the singleton to the exclusion of allness. The drive to be special is a hint, a virtue, and should not be taken as a delusional need. It becomes pathological. Like the girl that gets mad when you say you love everyone, as if that means you love her less than you should. She thinks you should love her more, which is immoral. She is wrong. She is one-sided.

"I am you and you are me" ... so says @series0. It is true. But there are also differences.
And now you turn this way. OK ...

When we meet another, be it directly or be it hearing about them from a distance, those differences stand out. They stand out disproportionally compared to the complexity of our samenesses.
Differences are complex. Sameness is mostly simple. You are backwards in the way this should be taken.

There is no difference between ourself and others. That we might be at war with others, that we might be cruel, reject, or be indifferent to others is no different from the way we treat ourselves when we abandon, condemn, or kill the other path rejected in the fork in the road.
When we let differences OR sameness tie us into immoral paths (objective), we fail. When in Rome, do GOOD, despite what the Romans do. When among the GOOD, do not feel the need to be different such that you choose to be not GOOD, as if that is validation of some sort. This is a multi-sided set of statements and wiser than any one-sided path.

The other concept beyond identity I'll call "arrogance." Arrogance means to overrate something. We give a value to it higher than it deserves. Three gets a higher rating than two. 57,862 gets a higher rating than 9,644. Does it deserve this higher rating? We can question that. It's the same with humans. We give a higher rating to humans in general over the "lower animals." Primates get a higher rating over insects. Why? Because of the relative difficulty in identification. Arrogance is a part of our being. When the fly has the audacity (arrogance) to land on us, we crush its body with our flyswatter. We carry out a deliberate campaign to exterminate them regardless of the pain such living creatures may feel. When we encounter another human being who annoys us, we can select a part of our identity that sees the other person as arrogant as the fly. Because we are fractured human beings, we are at times able to see only the other person as we would a fly. When we can repair this fracture and to the extent we are whole, we will see others as ourselves. Then we cannot be cruel.
Incorrect. The choice of cruelty ALWAYS lies before us, eternally. The effort to avoid cruelty mounts as life's difficulties mount. It takes an actively wiser person to avoid slipping into the seeming but delusional ease of cruelty.

Cruelty should be related to increasing, acting for, UNNECESSARY suffering. Wisdom is increasing, acting for, NECESSARY suffering. Fools aplenty will assert that it is wise to avoid suffering altogether. They are one-sided and unwise. Cruel to be kind, in the right measure, is a very very very good sign. And kind to cause suffering, is also wise, in the right measure, as in NECESSARY SUFFERING.
 
Trying to make some useful categories:
1.) Cruelty for the sake of entertainment. Depraved at face value, but the cruelty isn't intended to persist beyond what might entertain an audience. The circumstances under which this occurs and no one gets hurt is pretty limited.
2.) Cruelty for the sake of material gain. The spectrum of depravity ranges from willful blindness to justification (corruption). Blind or not, no parties wish for hypothetical suffering.
3.) Cruelty for immaterial gain, including pleasure. Cruelty exceeding previously described thresholds probably falls into this catagory, which catches a lot. Obviously this also includes any that would be deliberately administered in private.
 
I was reading an online article about the ongoing situation in Afghanistan and some of the comments were horrific.
One person actually wrote that they would prioritise rescuing animals from Afghanistan over people who "they didn't give a damn about".
It got 31 likes.

I actually do feel sick in my stomach.
its a coping mechanism in reality
 
BigApplePi said: "If cruelty is going to be explained, kindness must be also for we are whole human beings."
I think you have to define them first. If you look at the accepted placid definitions you will discover they are often less than best.
I'm not sure why I said that. I wasn't ready to defined them, only to point out each must have boundaries as they are different which might help in eventual definition.

These 'splits' are relevant ONLY as errors. Truth and moral duty remain objective. So all deviation from that is excused only as an error that must be owned. Personality, identity, are HOW YOU ARE IN ERROR.
The healthiest person aims to be unified. The ideal person is. The reality is we are all fractured and therefore in error. In the moment we can be cruel without realizing it. Later we can be kind. This points to us being two different persons. Yay if one person can get to know the other.

Incorrect. The choice of cruelty ALWAYS lies before us, eternally. The effort to avoid cruelty mounts as life's difficulties mount. It takes an actively wiser person to avoid slipping into the seeming but delusional ease of cruelty.

Cruelty should be related to increasing, acting for, UNNECESSARY suffering. Wisdom is increasing, acting for, NECESSARY suffering. Fools aplenty will assert that it is wise to avoid suffering altogether. They are one-sided and unwise. Cruel to be kind, in the right measure, is a very very very good sign. And kind to cause suffering, is also wise, in the right measure, as in NECESSARY SUFFERING.
It is commendable to address morality here. I was trying for something else: "How can people be so cruel? "
I wanted not to judge it but to explain it. You may have heard of "The banality of evil." This is a part of it but I want to propose another theory. The theory is neuroscientifically oriented.

In so far as we act in the moment, we are highly focused on that perception. I claim we forget this is us who is perceiving. That means when we see or imagine we see the same action perceived in others, we identify. For that instant we can't tell the other person is different from ourselves. We want for the other person whatever we wanted in our processing of our own perception. This lies behind social bonding. It makes the world go round for society. However when we see a different action perceived in another, or in a lower animal or to extend the idea, in an insect, we do not identify. We react with a consciousness they are different from us and therefore not to be identified with.

Let's try out this example. You go to a boxing match. One boxer lands a haymaker on the other. You are thrilled and cheer with the crowd. Why? Because it is you who landed the blow. It is you who are thrilled you could carry this out on the other whom you wish to defeat. On the other hand if you are on the other side or just hate this kind of violence, you are the same as the sufferer. You are defeated. Or you are appalled at receiving the blow. In the former case, the morality of not being cruel is out the window. In the latter case, the morality is to deny the sporting practice as it is a cruel sport.
 
BigApplePi said: "If cruelty is going to be explained, kindness must be also for we are whole human beings."
But be careful that you do not define them separately, and include their understandings with one another.

I'm not sure why I said that. I wasn't ready to defined them, only to point out each must have boundaries as they are different which might help in eventual definition.
Stating boundaries is defining. The boundary is delusional. It always is. It is best thought of as a current state in tendencies, NOT a real boundary as in permanent.

The fact that you were unready to define your terms means in general that you were morally unready to discuss them. OWNING readiness means you are attempting to be moral. DISOWNING readiness means you tacitly admit to a measure of immorality.

The healthiest person aims to be unified.
Both unified AND separate at the same time. Juxtaposition underlies all meaningful truth. Juxtaposition IS NOT really contradiction, though it will be perceived as such by the weak, the unwise.

The ideal person is.
Incorrect.

You used the verb to be is this last contention. But you used the verb to aim in the former contention. You were RIGHT in the former case and WRONG in the latter. The ideal person AIMS to be unified. That is a correct statement. Do you understand how weighted and unfairly put your set of statements was previously?

The reality is we are all fractured and therefore in error. In the moment we can be cruel without realizing it. Later we can be kind. This points to us being two different persons. Yay if one person can get to know the other.
The way you say things leads to wrong conclusions. We are both separate and unified at the same time. That means cruelty and kindness, wisdom and antiwisdom are always incumbent upon us at all times equally. It is ridiculous and unwise to say, we are this now and this later in terms of possibility, moral agency. It is only true that we made a choice at some point with both good and evil in the balance. We DID have the choice for pure GOOD. How we chose shows only the degree of our error and success. But we are not perfect so in reality the simplest statement is of how much we erred. This will seem pessimistic to the unwise.

It is commendable to address morality here. I was trying for something else: "How can people be so cruel? "
That question IS NOT about something else. ALL questions are only about morality. Morality is all that there is. Nothing that has meaning, even rote existence, is absent a moral quandary.

So, you cannot morally try for something else. That means you are being immoral in that try.

I wanted not to judge it but to explain it.
There is zero possibility of explaining something without judgement. Judgment is ALWAYS included in the act of explanation. As usual, mostly, your statements make little sense. One has to 'favorably read into' what you mean for you to make sense. Is that cruel as a statement or kind?

You may have heard of "The banality of evil." This is a part of it but I want to propose another theory. The theory is neuroscientifically oriented.
The path of fear (any science) is fraught with peril. Order is itself quite banal, to use your word. Without chaos, there is fire of life. Your path of analysis is flawed. Science alone cannot offer wisdom until it unites with anger and desire. Eventually there will be a science that does so.

In so far as we act in the moment, we are highly focused on that perception. I claim we forget this is us who is perceiving.
I claim we DO NOT forget that enough. And you are about to prove me, not you, correct.

That means when we see or imagine we see the same action perceived in others, we identify.
The key word is 'imagine'. The interpretive lens leaves us deluded that our identity is mirrored. Yet and still, in the greater sense, you are me and I am you. So identity is then realized as a delusion. The entire meaning of identity is delusionally aimed at separation, or separation apology, eg, order apology. We SHOULD identify with ALL. That is the only non delusional identification.

For that instant we can't tell the other person is different from ourselves.
But this is perceptual error rooting nonetheless in intuitive truth. The delusional identity is seen as the unity, whereas the real unity is WITHOUT identity. Do you understand?

We want for the other person whatever we wanted in our processing of our own perception.
(This is) Wishful desire side self-indulgence.

This lies behind social bonding. It makes the world go round for society.
Type 6 is the core of fear, and the fountain of identity. It is the delusional separation into meaningful groups, us vs them. Oddly this type is the source of strong connection, meaning it has lost its mind. It denies (effectively) belonging to all by declaring a delusional identity. This virtue is over-expressed when the separation is perceived as essential or quintessential. Properly, the separation can only be perceived as juxtaposed with other elements of the self that exist in an equal unity.

Type 6 has been defined as the glue holding everything together, precisely by keeping things safely separate. This remains a delusion.

However when we see a different action perceived in another, or in a lower animal or to extend the idea, in an insect, we do not identify.
Again, this is an error.

We DO identify and we recoil in disgust because we know it is us, behaving as we might not choose to. Without the greater truth of unity, if identity were not a delusion, there would be no need to feel disgusted. Disgust is actually only possible as an 'against that which exists' feeling. But the disgusting juxtaposes the sublime. One cannot exist without the other.

We react with a consciousness they are different from us and therefore not to be identified with.
This is the world of fear, of order, drawing a line in the sand, and saying, 'this is Sparta', we are not like the 'feminine' Greeks. But the truth is Sparta is a part of Greece. That is only a humorous play on words, an accident of politics and geography; but it illustrates the greater wiser truth quite well. Sparta is not allowed to claim an identity. Sparta is part of it all. So is Greece. So are we all. Identity is delusional.

Let's try out this example. You go to a boxing match. One boxer lands a haymaker on the other. You are thrilled and cheer with the crowd. Why? Because it is you who landed the blow. It is you who are thrilled you could carry this out on the other whom you wish to defeat. On the other hand if you are on the other side or just hate this kind of violence, you are the same as the sufferer. You are defeated. Or you are appalled at receiving the blow. In the former case, the morality of not being cruel is out the window. In the latter case, the morality is to deny the sporting practice as it is a cruel sport.
Your casual frame of reference switching is like changing goalposts, subjective reasoning. The truth though, is objective. We are always BOTH the attacker and the attacked. Balance in understanding denies identity, but not specific behavior. In other words identify ONLY with the GOOD which warns you that identity is most often delusional as in, with any other choice but the perfect GOOD, which is unattainable. Effort and aim is all.
 
True cruelty is the people who invaded Afghanistan based on some trumped up charges, killed a bunch of civilians, robbed them blind of their national resources, and then proclaimed themselves saviours. As heartless as the commenter seems, he is far less harmful to the Afghans than the so called humanitarians. Unlike them, he sounds like he'd be all to happy to leave them be.
That is correct, but I want to expound on that with some comments from the horse's mouth itself in order to get it across as blunt & stark as it can be. There's a lot of ambiguous, generalizing kind of comments about "why do bad people randomly do bad things"... that is not it at all. There's a specific reason why this happens, and they don't think they're doing bad things.

Let's put things this way. If you have a business, for you to make a profit you are going to want conditions to be favorable for the product you're selling. The more favorable, the more 'in demand' the product will be, and thus the more you make. You already know that, nothing new there - but I'll get to what the issue is in a moment.

Meet Marillyn Hewson. Until 2020 she was the president of Lockheed Martin, a multibillion dollar corporation that makes weapons & vehicles for war. She's the 22nd richest person in the world.

In 2015 the US reached a deal with Iran - the Iran Nuclear Deal - in which Iran would stop nuclear enrichment in exchange for removal of sanctions. Afterwards, Hewson was speaking at a conference of shareholders & investors, and she said this...

"To your question about foreign policy and normalization and things of that nature, there are certainly plenty of threats in the region. You know, just the volatility, even if there may be some kind of deal done with Iran, there is volatility all around the region. And each one of these countries believes they've got to protect their citizens. And the things that we can bring to them help in that regard"

She's reassuring shareholders that it's ok, don't worry, even though there was a deal done with Iran, there's still a lot of volatility around the region. And they're all going to want to protect their citizens, and that's where we get rich. The Iran Nuclear Deal was something unfortunate for them!!

"Volatility" she says... where is the volatility coming from? Is it just spontaneously arising all on it's own all over the place, like whack-a-mole? No. This is where we get to the issue that I referred to earlier.

Due a long list of deregulatory & rules-changing actions that took place over the last 40 years, driven by 4 big Supreme Court cases that first allowed money in politics (1976) and then kept increasing it's role in politics (until 2014's McCutcheon v FEC set the limit oligarchs can give at infinity), the 40 years of rules-changing created a government in which it is legal to buy politicians & congress.

And if you're a business owner, you want conditions to be favorable for the product you sell. In Hewson's case, she sells death.

Soooo in order to make the environment good for business people such as Hewson, along with CEOs of all the other defense contractors (Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, etc) buy the government, both parties... and then give them their marching orders. You think voters give them their marching orders? LOL. No. Oligarchs do. "We want you to do military interventions all over the planet". For what reason? "No reason (apart from making us rich) But don't worry, we'll fabricate something. We consolidated the entire media down to six companies, so we control the messaging & narrative. We'll dupe the citizenry over & over again, don't worry about that"

To people like her, peace is like what drought is to a farmer.

In 2001, the Taliban offered an unconditional surrender AND to hand Bin Laden over. The US said NO THANKS.

Because peace is like what drought is to a farmer.

Now note her comment "things that we can bring to them on that regard". Note the brazenness of this comment. It's a mafia!! "We sell protection to people, and if they aren't afraid enough to want it, we make them afraid"

They do, basically, money laundering (also like a mafia) They suck allllllll the taxpayer money out of the people - like dozens of mosquitoes on one person sucking up all the money - start numerous military actions, which have no legal reason but serve as the 'front' in the money laundering scheme... and then all the money gets shoveled to the mafia (Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, etc) who started the fires in the first place.

As the world's most pre-eminent journalist once said, a man who has won every major journalist award and is currently being put under the most illegal prosecution ever (thanks to their framing him due to controlling the narrative)......

"The goal is not to completely subjugate Afghanistan. The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the United States, out of the tax bases of European countries, through Afghanistan, and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. That is the goal, i.e., the goal is to have an endless war not a successful war"​

21 trillion unaccounted for at the Pentagon. Unaccounted for, i.e., no idea where it went to, couldn't know less, etc. That is an amount of money that could end world hunger for the next seven hundred years. If you used even a tiny fraction of that number, it could pay for all the shit American citizens actually need.

What you see here with the defense contractors? The same basis applies every other industry. Go to the health care industry, here's Wall Street asking biotech research companies this question Is curing patients a sustainable business model? "I mean, we could cure viruses, but then we wouldn't make as much as money as we would if we just mitigated the symptoms but didn't outright cure it".

The goal is to have endless sickness, not successfully cure it. The goal is to have endless war, not a successful war.

Take the fossil fuel industry. A lobbyist interviewing for a job at a health insurance company said ""Did we aggressively fight against some of the science? Yes. Did we join some of these shadow groups to work against some of the early efforts? Yes, that's true. But there's nothing illegal about that. We were looking out for our investments, we were looking out for our shareholders"

That's a whole lot of badness being caused right there. @Jumbly , you asked why there's so much of it... there's your answer. The system we have rewards it. Because this is the system we have, they don't think they're doing anything wrong. They're not aware of the destruction they're causing - they've been born & raised far apart and separated from everyone else, in an enclave with other multibillionaires; this is all they know. Just like an Islamic terrorist only knows that due to having been born & raised in an enclave consisting of only that.

So that's why people do bad shit and why there's so much of it.
 
"The goal is not to completely subjugate Afghanistan. The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the United States, out of the tax bases of European countries, through Afghanistan, and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. That is the goal, i.e., the goal is to have an endless war not a successful war"

21 trillion unaccounted for at the Pentagon. Unaccounted for, i.e., no idea where it went to, couldn't know less, etc.
Here's a quote from Afghanistan & Iraq war veteran Matthew Ho that every single person reading this should see...

"Holy cow, I was living like Scarface. I was paying out anywhere between $300,000-$400,000 per week to $5 million per week at times. All in cash. I had $50 million in cash. The most I ever had at one point was $24 million on hand, in $100 bills, sitting in safes in my bedroom. And there was hardly any oversight whatsoever"

That's where your money is going.

But no... we can't have health care, college tuition, maternal leave, a living wage. The minimum wage is $7, down from $22 in 1969.

That takes us to the even greater, overarching point in all this. The very basis for practically everything that takes place all around the world. And that basis is this...

The oligarchy cannot have a successful example of socialism arise somewhere. Because if that happens, then that's going to make the people here want to do it, and if we implement that then, dear god, the oligarchs could lose a nickel in stock value!! Just like they did during & after the FDR presidency, when the top tax rate was 91%, but they were still phenomenally wealthy.

You don't get to become that wealthy by being a normal person, you understand. You must be a sociopath so avaricious for money that you will evict a grandmother over 27 cents. And we have a system, capitalism, that not only makes this possible, but rewards them for doing this.

And so in a system like ours, it is sociopaths who rise to the top.

Once at the top, they want to stay there and hoard exceedingly even more wealth. Like a giant leech on the face of the planet. In 2016, 62 people owned more wealth than half of planet Earth (3.8 billion people), in 2017 that number became EIGHT PEOPLE.

Socialism threatens reducing their wealthy by a fraction (while simultaneously vastly improving everyone else's lives), and they can't allow that to happen. Because they are a leech and want to suck up every resource until there is nothing left but arid land & no oceans because climate change killed all of it.

And that is why the US has invaded everywhere and everything. Anywhere socialism threatened to raise it's head, there was the US to throw that country into tumult.

The US has overthrown dozens of duly-elected presidents. The CIA & FBI has interfered in 81 elections according to Carnegie Mellon Institute.

That's your most overarching summation for the entire planet's affairs there.

Afghanistan was a thriving socialist country in the 1970s. Half the women in government were women. Look at them now. Iran's Mohammad Mosaddegh was a champion of secular democracy... here comes the CIA with Operation Ajax, and there goes Mosaddegh. Look at where Iran is now. The CIA & FBI are the most destructive thing on this planet, but no one hears about them or talks about them... which is the way they want to keep it.

That's the simplest summation of all politics. The US has the most nukes, the biggest military... and the oligarchs make it overthrow ANY country who moves even an inch towards peace & equity. We gotta have tumult at all times, otherwise how is Marillyn Hewson or Jamie Dimon gonna become another 2 billion, 3 billion wealthier? I don't know who you think you are, but the planet is for them & their friends. Have you not read an Aynd Rand book?

 
BOTH parties. Doesn't matter who behaves like what in the kabuki theater everyone's distracted by in the media. Yea, I know the Republicans act super crazy, tweet crazy shit, etc, and the Democrats act sane, and you're caught up in the reality tv show of it all, and you feel like you 'dodged a bullet' if the Democrat beats the Republican... but what do they do legislatively. That's what matters. Not tweets, not behavior, not personality... what are the bills they're passing.

And as it is, the Democratic administration that followed Bush's infamously bad regime actually increased Bush's illegal wars from 2 to 7, and increased, vastly, the drone strikes - the Pentagon admits that 90% of them kill innocent civilians. Democrats did that. It's almost like the two parties are trying to outdo each other.

But guess what... they act sane, not crazy like the Republicans... so they get better press. And so you don't even notice all this because the reality tv show you get sold on corporate media OMITS all this, and just gives you a personality contest. But it don't matter what personality you have when they all do what their oligarch funders tell them to do.
 
21 - 40 of 44 Posts