I had a debate with an ENTJ friend about people pleasing, and I would like to hear the insights and perspective of other MBTI types about it.
I'm paraphrasing the conversation.
She said that people pleasing is bad, that people pleasing is bad because you destroy yourself, because if you take care of other people's needs, you will not take care of your needs in the process, that life is a game and you have to deal with it, that everyone is out there for themselves, difference is that I can admit it to myself.
Of course I'm self-interested, we all are, we're born that way, but we are also having conscience, and the people who label themselves as "empaths" are some of the most selfish people I've seen in my life, to me empaths is just short for self-absorbed, so busy labeling themselves as empaths that they do not see how little empathy they actually have.
It's better to just be honest about what you want, and acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself.
My reply was, okay, let's play that game. Life is a game and you have to deal with it, but wouldn't that be part of life's game to make yourself more likeable? wouldn't it be benficial to you to make people like you? and that would require being unselfish.
She said look at all the people pleasers out there, wuss, unselfish people, do they live good and happy lives due to their unselfish attitude? They are some of the first people to be taken advantage of by a woman, heck, I could be very easy profiting off these nice guys if I didn't have a conscience. They are so unselfish that they are very easy to abuse if you want to, and that is people pleasing.
My reply, yes, I don't mean being a doormat, but I don't think things are as black & white as either just be honest about what you want, and acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself VS just be a doormat that everyone is taking advantage of, including women you hit on for material gains from you. You don't have to be either predator or prey.
She said that, just be honest about what you want, and acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself, doesn't mean being a predator. It doesn't mean you go out there and beat people or make their lives miserable. It just means that you acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself, so you are honest about what you want and go for it. That's it, the rest are just assumptions made by yourself.
Is that selfish? yes, but didn't we establish that we all are. Why not get a raise? why not get that better thing you always wanted? probably out of fear, not out of lack of being selfish, the "empaths" are "better than everyone else" because they are "good people". That's where their pride lives, in being good people, because they cannot go after what they want.
My reply was, ok, I understand the philosophy behind just be honest about what you want, and acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself.
However, people pleasing can have it's benefits. Not all people pleasing is bad "you turn into a doormat if you don't" level. Having this attitude of acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself will blind you of the possibility to become likeable to people, which in itself has its own benefits, even if you consider it as playing a game, playing the game of life, when people like you, they do things for you, isn't that right? we all like to feel validated and accepted, isn't that right? and if you do it right, you can please people without being a doormat.
She said, how? to me people pleasing and being a doormat are synonyms, you can't do one without the other.
My reply was, ok, let's say an absurd example, do you please people when you open the door? yes, do you please people when you cook for them? yes, do you please people when you help them with the homework? yes. It's literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing.
Is that bad? No, not at all, if the person that you open the door for, cook for and help them with the homework appreciates you, you will raise in their eyes, otherwise, yes, you can be taken advantage of with the homework for example, and be exactly what you said, a doormat, a wuss, but it's up to you to read the situation and the intention of the person behind and see if you are being taken advantage of or your input or help is genuinely appreciated.
She said, yes, but whether you are being taken advantage of or your input or help is genuinely appreciated depends on how you are as a person, whether they like you as a person or not, in abstract of those things, so really, literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing, doesn't do much for your charisma and so on.
My reply was, but it does, you just have to, please people but from a high position so to speak.
From a high dignity in yourself position of genuine help. A position of genuine help, and a position of having your own dignity, a position of "I'm already good enough, so I'm just helping you, for you".
She said, that's just your internal monologue, your internal monologue is insignificant.
My reply was, not really, let's say you want people to like you, how can you go about this? you can do literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing. How? by being what they like to be so they appreciate you, mirroring on some level, by doing nice things for them so they appreciate it as long as you know you won't be taken advantage of, how do you know you are not taken advantage of? you are certain within yourself, you are what they expect you to be, highly succesful and highly helpful, but with an energy that's giving not taking.
Being very friendly to them and being someone they can trust, that's another form of literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing.
Being someone they like in terms of personality, by making sure through your highly powerful and in a way "superior" actions that the others have a pleasant feeling towards you. If you please people like that, they will like you.
She said, so it's all about dignity isn't it? if you please people without dignity, you're a wuss, if you please people with dignity, you're a good guy. The only difference in what you're saying is having dignity in yourself. That's pretty sad and deplorable if human beings were like that.
Giving and expecting to get back it's not how it works. I'm not buying your literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing. Metaphor, because a secure and grounded person is like "you don't like a lot of me, you leave". There are 3 type of things: doing what I want, doing what you want, doing what we both want. Take this conversation for example, we are doing what we both want, but what if instead you would be doing what I want so that in your head later I will do what you want.
It doesn't work like that. That's why people pleasing doesn't work, just because you do what I want now, doesn't mean I will do what you want later. And you should not seek acceptance in that, but rather in who you are.
Doormats try to get people to do what they want, secure people do what they want and then pick friends who like it.
Doormats do what other people want, so that later, supposedly, those people would do what they want later. Secure people just do what they want at first and if you like it, great, if you don't like it, also great. Not everything in life is like a job interview. And if people don't do what you want then you can just leave.
I agree in your sense with your idea about literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing. But, do not confuse love with desperation, because sometimes there is a lot of overlap with behaviors. If you don't need validation and give people love, time, attention, energy, the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing. That's going to make people also feel good. That's positive. That's giving to their energy. But, if you need validation and feel like you don't have options, and you only please people to keep them from leaving. That's negative. That's taking from their energy. That's "please don't leave me" energy", "I'm only doing this, because I need to keep you around". It's not, "I'm doing this because I want to, because I care about you", "because I want you to be happy".
I'm paraphrasing the conversation.
She said that people pleasing is bad, that people pleasing is bad because you destroy yourself, because if you take care of other people's needs, you will not take care of your needs in the process, that life is a game and you have to deal with it, that everyone is out there for themselves, difference is that I can admit it to myself.
Of course I'm self-interested, we all are, we're born that way, but we are also having conscience, and the people who label themselves as "empaths" are some of the most selfish people I've seen in my life, to me empaths is just short for self-absorbed, so busy labeling themselves as empaths that they do not see how little empathy they actually have.
It's better to just be honest about what you want, and acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself.
My reply was, okay, let's play that game. Life is a game and you have to deal with it, but wouldn't that be part of life's game to make yourself more likeable? wouldn't it be benficial to you to make people like you? and that would require being unselfish.
She said look at all the people pleasers out there, wuss, unselfish people, do they live good and happy lives due to their unselfish attitude? They are some of the first people to be taken advantage of by a woman, heck, I could be very easy profiting off these nice guys if I didn't have a conscience. They are so unselfish that they are very easy to abuse if you want to, and that is people pleasing.
My reply, yes, I don't mean being a doormat, but I don't think things are as black & white as either just be honest about what you want, and acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself VS just be a doormat that everyone is taking advantage of, including women you hit on for material gains from you. You don't have to be either predator or prey.
She said that, just be honest about what you want, and acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself, doesn't mean being a predator. It doesn't mean you go out there and beat people or make their lives miserable. It just means that you acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself, so you are honest about what you want and go for it. That's it, the rest are just assumptions made by yourself.
Is that selfish? yes, but didn't we establish that we all are. Why not get a raise? why not get that better thing you always wanted? probably out of fear, not out of lack of being selfish, the "empaths" are "better than everyone else" because they are "good people". That's where their pride lives, in being good people, because they cannot go after what they want.
My reply was, ok, I understand the philosophy behind just be honest about what you want, and acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself.
However, people pleasing can have it's benefits. Not all people pleasing is bad "you turn into a doormat if you don't" level. Having this attitude of acknowledge that everyone is out there for themselves, including yourself will blind you of the possibility to become likeable to people, which in itself has its own benefits, even if you consider it as playing a game, playing the game of life, when people like you, they do things for you, isn't that right? we all like to feel validated and accepted, isn't that right? and if you do it right, you can please people without being a doormat.
She said, how? to me people pleasing and being a doormat are synonyms, you can't do one without the other.
My reply was, ok, let's say an absurd example, do you please people when you open the door? yes, do you please people when you cook for them? yes, do you please people when you help them with the homework? yes. It's literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing.
Is that bad? No, not at all, if the person that you open the door for, cook for and help them with the homework appreciates you, you will raise in their eyes, otherwise, yes, you can be taken advantage of with the homework for example, and be exactly what you said, a doormat, a wuss, but it's up to you to read the situation and the intention of the person behind and see if you are being taken advantage of or your input or help is genuinely appreciated.
She said, yes, but whether you are being taken advantage of or your input or help is genuinely appreciated depends on how you are as a person, whether they like you as a person or not, in abstract of those things, so really, literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing, doesn't do much for your charisma and so on.
My reply was, but it does, you just have to, please people but from a high position so to speak.
From a high dignity in yourself position of genuine help. A position of genuine help, and a position of having your own dignity, a position of "I'm already good enough, so I'm just helping you, for you".
She said, that's just your internal monologue, your internal monologue is insignificant.
My reply was, not really, let's say you want people to like you, how can you go about this? you can do literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing. How? by being what they like to be so they appreciate you, mirroring on some level, by doing nice things for them so they appreciate it as long as you know you won't be taken advantage of, how do you know you are not taken advantage of? you are certain within yourself, you are what they expect you to be, highly succesful and highly helpful, but with an energy that's giving not taking.
Being very friendly to them and being someone they can trust, that's another form of literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing.
Being someone they like in terms of personality, by making sure through your highly powerful and in a way "superior" actions that the others have a pleasant feeling towards you. If you please people like that, they will like you.
She said, so it's all about dignity isn't it? if you please people without dignity, you're a wuss, if you please people with dignity, you're a good guy. The only difference in what you're saying is having dignity in yourself. That's pretty sad and deplorable if human beings were like that.
Giving and expecting to get back it's not how it works. I'm not buying your literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing. Metaphor, because a secure and grounded person is like "you don't like a lot of me, you leave". There are 3 type of things: doing what I want, doing what you want, doing what we both want. Take this conversation for example, we are doing what we both want, but what if instead you would be doing what I want so that in your head later I will do what you want.
It doesn't work like that. That's why people pleasing doesn't work, just because you do what I want now, doesn't mean I will do what you want later. And you should not seek acceptance in that, but rather in who you are.
Doormats try to get people to do what they want, secure people do what they want and then pick friends who like it.
Doormats do what other people want, so that later, supposedly, those people would do what they want later. Secure people just do what they want at first and if you like it, great, if you don't like it, also great. Not everything in life is like a job interview. And if people don't do what you want then you can just leave.
I agree in your sense with your idea about literally people pleasing, not "people pleasing TM", but the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing. But, do not confuse love with desperation, because sometimes there is a lot of overlap with behaviors. If you don't need validation and give people love, time, attention, energy, the action of pleasing people, so people pleasing. That's going to make people also feel good. That's positive. That's giving to their energy. But, if you need validation and feel like you don't have options, and you only please people to keep them from leaving. That's negative. That's taking from their energy. That's "please don't leave me" energy", "I'm only doing this, because I need to keep you around". It's not, "I'm doing this because I want to, because I care about you", "because I want you to be happy".
