I would say the 4w5 is more like the artist and the 5w4 is more like the scientist, although there are similarities when it comes to their sensitive and reserved nature. Try to think of it like this: a 4 is fully in their emotional worlds, so to speak, whereas the 5 is not as emotionally self-aware and needs to detach and analyse to really know what's going on. A 4 sort of knows what is going on emotionally as it's going on (although is still very reflective by nature), whereas a 5 is more of a distant observer when it comes to emotions.

A 4w5 might be more interested in the essence of a piece of music and the emotional impact, honesty and openness of it, whereas the 5w4 might be like an enthusiastic scientist examining all these beautiful sounds and emotions being created.

A 4w5 has an intellectual bent, but is emotional first, interested in emotional catharsis. The 5w4 can be emotionally tuned, but is intellectual first, interested in systems.

Both are almost definitely creative or artistic in some way, but 4w5 is more self-revealing and emotion-based, 5w4 is more analytical.

 

Ultimately, there will be a lot of overlap--I personally find the distinction between 4w5 and 5w4 to be quite blurry compared to other similar types (eg 1w9 vs 9w1, 6w7 vs 7w6), especially when trying to type others. 4w5s will usually not fit the description of the stereotypical 4 (melodramatic, outwardly self-absorbed, etc), especially if introverted or sp-dom. 4w5s can appear quite emotionless around others but will feel the emotion on the inside (and not be bothered by it). Similarly, 5w4s can seem unlike the stereotypical 5 bc they utilize their imagination more than the strictly scientific 5w6 descriptions. They tend toward more creative sciences, like physics, or systems that are more open to interpretation. Both types can be analytical and seemingly detached from others, yet moody and sensitive to criticism.

One key difference that I see is the 5's reluctance to get in touch with feelings. A 4w5 might intellectualize his/her emotions and keep them to him/herself (or only express them to a close friend/SO), unlike the 4w3 who is more likely to wear them on his/her sleeve. But the 4w5 is hyper aware of these emotions and isn't disturbed by them--in fact, the 4w5 might enjoy their intense emotional innerscape, even if she/he feels no need to share it with anyone. A 5w4 is unlikely to spend a ton of time thinking about his/her emotions and would likely use emotions to color knowledge (e.g. this article in which a bunch of scientists argue about which mathematical equation is the most "beautiful" or "elegant" and why). In other words, the 4w5 uses knowledge/fact to better understand emotion, while the 5w4 uses emotion/beauty to add meaning to scientific/knowledge. Also, the 5w4 is more likely to be interested in objective knowledge, whereas the 4w5 cares more about self-knowledge. For example, I read about a lot of different Enneatypes, not just 4s, but the Enneatypes I'm interested in learning about are those of people I know well IRL and want to better understand. I'm not massively interested in types that don't relate to me and my life. A 5 is more likely to want to learn about all of the Enneagram types.

Speaking from personal experience, I do not like meaninglessly drama and stay away from it. I like my life to be generally calm. But when a situation arises that is inevitably dramatic (a genuine crisis of some sort), I actually enjoy the challenge; I get this thrilling emotional high, even though I'm fairly unperturbed on the outside. A 5w4 that I know tends to freeze up and turn kind of robotic under this kind of pressure, almost like she's trying to remember any knowledge in her internal database that might help her handle the situation. She looks for the structure that will help her interpret what is happening so she can master it rather than be mastered by it. And it's like she tries to block out the drama/emotion from this crisis, whereas I tend to let it in and get kind of a rush. A 4w5 would be more likely to ride the drama out rather than try to make sense of it and find a solution, like a 5w4. Also, after the moment passes, the 5 will try to forget about it and move on and live in the present. The 4 is more likely to keep reliving the moment to hold onto that intensity. When in doubt, 4s turn to emotion; 5s turn to knowledge.

Another way to decipher between the two is by looking at the instincts. If you're fairly certain about your instinctual subtypes, try reading the descriptions of each subtype for 4s and 5s. Likely, you will relate to both but one will ring much truer for you.

 

Ultimately, there will be a lot of overlap--I personally find the distinction between 4w5 and 5w4 to be quite blurry compared to other similar types (eg 1w9 vs 9w1, 6w7 vs 7w6), especially when trying to type others. 4w5s will usually not fit the description of the stereotypical 4 (melodramatic, outwardly self-absorbed, etc), especially if introverted or sp-dom. 4w5s can appear quite emotionless around others but will feel the emotion on the inside (and not be bothered by it). Similarly, 5w4s can seem unlike the stereotypical 5 bc they utilize their imagination more than the strictly scientific 5w6 descriptions. They tend toward more creative sciences, like physics, or systems that are more open to interpretation. Both types can be analytical and seemingly detached from others, yet moody and sensitive to criticism.

One key difference that I see is the 5's reluctance to get in touch with feelings. A 4w5 might intellectualize his/her emotions and keep them to him/herself (or only express them to

Speaking from personal experience, I do not like meaninglessly drama and stay away from it. I like my life to be generally calm. But when a situation arises that is inevitably dramatic (a genuine crisis of some sort), I actually enjoy the challenge; I get this thrilling emotional high, even though I'm fairly unperturbed on the outside. A 5w4 that I know tends to freeze up and turn kind of robotic under this kind of pressure, almost like she's trying to remember any knowledge in her internal database that might help her handle the situation. She looks for the structure that will help her interpret what is happening so she can master it rather than be mastered by it. And it's like she tries to block out the drama/emotion from this crisis, whereas I tend to let it in and get kind of a rush. A 4w5 would be more likely to ride the drama out rather than try to make sense of it and find a solution, like a 5w4. Also, after the moment passes, the 5 will try to forget about it and move on and live in the present. The 4 is more likely to keep reliving the moment to hold onto that intensity. When in doubt, 4s turn to emotion; 5s turn to knowledge.

Ultimately, there will be a lot of overlap--I personally find the distinction between 4w5 and 5w4 to be quite blurry compared to other similar types (eg 1w9 vs 9w1, 6w7 vs 7w6), especially when trying to type others. 4w5s will usually not fit the description of the stereotypical 4 (melodramatic, outwardly self-absorbed, etc), especially if introverted or sp-dom. 4w5s can appear quite emotionless around others but will feel the emotion on the inside (and not be bothered by it). Similarly, 5w4s can seem unlike the stereotypical 5 bc they utilize their imagination more than the strictly scientific 5w6 descriptions. They tend toward more creative sciences, like physics, or systems that are more open to interpretation. Both types can be analytical and seemingly detached from others, yet moody and sensitive to criticism.

One key difference that I see is the 5's reluctance to get in touch with feelings. A 4w5 might intellectualize his/her emotions and keep them to him/herself (or only express them to a close friend/SO), unlike the 4w3 who is more likely to wear them on his/her sleeve. But the 4w5 is hyper aware of these emotions and isn't disturbed by them--in fact, the 4w5 might enjoy their intense emotional innerscape, even if she/he feels no need to share it with anyone. A 5w4 is unlikely to spend a ton of time thinking about his/her emotions and would likely use emotions to color knowledge (e.g. this article in which a bunch of scientists argue about which mathematical equation is the most "beautiful" or "elegant" and why). In other words, the 4w5 uses knowledge/fact to better understand emotion, while the 5w4 uses emotion/beauty to add meaning to scientific/knowledge. Also, the 5w4 is more likely to be interested in objective knowledge, whereas the 4w5 cares more about self-knowledge. For example, I read about a lot of different Enneatypes, not just 4s, but the Enneatypes I'm interested in learning about are those of people I know well IRL and want to better understand. I'm not massively interested in types that don't relate to me and my life. A 5 is more likely to want to learn about all of the Enneagram types.

Speaking from personal experience, I do not like meaninglessly drama and stay away from it. I like my life to be generally calm. But when a situation arises that is inevitably dramatic (a genuine crisis of some sort), I actually enjoy the challenge; I get this thrilling emotional high, even though I'm fairly unperturbed on the outside. A 5w4 that I know tends to freeze up and turn kind of robotic under this kind of pressure, almost like she's trying to remember any knowledge in her internal database that might help her handle the situation. She looks for the structure that will help her interpret what is happening so she can master it rather than be mastered by it. And it's like she tries to block out the drama/emotion from this crisis, whereas I tend to let it in and get kind of a rush. A 4w5 would be more likely to ride the drama out rather than try to make sense of it and find a solution, like a 5w4. Also, after the moment passes, the 5 will try to forget about it and move on and live in the present. The 4 is more likely to keep reliving the moment to hold onto that intensity. When in doubt, 4s turn to emotion; 5s turn to knowledge.

Another way to decipher between the two is by looking at the instincts. If you're fairly certain about your instinctual subtypes, try reading the descriptions of each subtype for 4s and 5s. Likely, you will relate to both but one will ring much truer for you.

Ultimately, there will be a lot of overlap--I personally find the distinction between 4w5 and 5w4 to be quite blurry compared to other similar types (eg 1w9 vs 9w1, 6w7 vs 7w6), especially when trying to type others. 4w5s will usually not fit the description of the stereotypical 4 (melodramatic, outwardly self-absorbed, etc), especially if introverted or sp-dom. 4w5s can appear quite emotionless around others but will feel the emotion on the inside (and not be bothered by it). Similarly, 5w4s can seem unlike the stereotypical 5 bc they utilize their imagination more than the strictly scientific 5w6 descriptions. They tend toward more creative sciences, like physics, or systems that are more open to interpretation. Both types can be analytical and seemingly detached from others, yet moody and sensitive to criticism.

One key difference that I see is the 5's reluctance to get in touch with feelings. A 4w5 might intellectualize his/her emotions and keep them to him/herself (or only express them to a close friend/SO), unlike the 4w3 who is more likely to wear them on his/her sleeve. But the 4w5 is hyper aware of these emotions and isn't disturbed by them--in fact, the 4w5 might enjoy their intense emotional innerscape, even if she/he feels no need to share it with anyone. A 5w4 is unlikely to spend a ton of time thinking about his/her emotions and would likely use emotions to color knowledge (e.g. this article in which a bunch of scientists argue about which mathematical equation is the most "beautiful" or "elegant" and why). In other words, the 4w5 uses knowledge/fact to better understand emotion, while the 5w4 uses emotion/beauty to add meaning to scientific/knowledge. Also, the 5w4 is more likely to be interested in objective knowledge, whereas the 4w5 cares more about self-knowledge. For example, I read about a lot of different Enneatypes, not just 4s, but the Enneatypes I'm interested in learning about are those of people I know well IRL and want to better understand. I'm not massively interested in types that don't relate to me and my life. A 5 is more likely to want to learn about all of the Enneagram types.

Speaking from personal experience, I do not like meaninglessly drama and stay away from it. I like my life to be generally calm. But when a situation arises that is inevitably dramatic (a genuine crisis of some sort), I actually enjoy the challenge; I get this thrilling emotional high, even though I'm fairly unperturbed on the outside. A 5w4 that I know tends to freeze up and turn kind of robotic under this kind of pressure, almost like she's trying to remember any knowledge in her internal database that might help her handle the situation. She looks for the structure that will help her interpret what is happening so she can master it rather than be mastered by it. And it's like she tries to block out the drama/emotion from this crisis, whereas I tend to let it in and get kind of a rush. A 4w5 would be more likely to ride the drama out rather than try to make sense of it and find a solution, like a 5w4. Also, after the moment passes, the 5 will try to forget about it and move on and live in the present. The 4 is more likely to keep reliving the moment to hold onto that intensity. When in doubt, 4s turn to emotion; 5s turn to knowledge.

Another way to decipher between the two is by looking at the instincts. If you're fairly certain about your instinctual subtypes, try reading the descriptions of each subtype for 4s and 5s. Likely, you will relate to both but one will ring much truer for you.

Your explanation and examples have helped me more than any other I've seen so far. That part about riding the emotional wave vs turning robotic and looking for a way out was perfect. I'm totally a 5w4.

 

....

 

But we've got a lot in common. So that link above mentions darkness in art. There's a lot of that in both. But for me, and many other Fours I know, the art we create or admire is meant to be expressive of deep, subjective, emotional experiences and pain, to communicate or reveal or incite passion.

Fives will also create or appreciate weird/dark art but for them it seems more like "Wooowee look how weird but somehow apt this is, you know, it actually makes a lot of sense..." Themes for the are more related to detachment; less angsty in their perceived alienhood and more intrigued by alien things in general. More interested in learning about... whatever they feel is worth knowing, less interested in applying it to themselves on a deeply emotional level.

My counter-example would be Tim Burton. Edward Scissorhands and Corpse Bride share the same dark romanticism as described for the 4w5 artist, and the former seems to have a personally-inspired touch as well. I don't see any other reason to doubt Tim Burton's typing as 5w4, so there is overlap between the two territories. Maybe a closer analysis could reveal the differences? In any case there are those who do fit the stereotype of the 5w4 surrealist artist, like H.R. Giger, Zdzislaw Beksinski, and H.P Lovecraft (who might be an elusive INFP 5w4?), which has themes of alienation from the self or from an impersonal world.

I do wonder whether other types have distinctive aesthetics, although the only material on this topic consists of collages on Tumblr, and it seems to sit on the same shaky ground as projective tests in psychology.

But I think a main difference in terms of our core issues and way of experiencing the world is that he's intent on self-erasure and a sort of solipsism, when he's unhealthy, while self-erasure is a rather huge fear of mine.

I like this characterisation and can't find anything to add to it.

 

My partner is a 5w4, I'm a 4w5, but we have the same tritype. We are very similar in a lot of ways, to the point my best friend has read conversations between us and said she could hardly tell us apart.

But I think a main difference in terms of our core issues and way of experiencing the world is that he's intent on self-erasure and a sort of solipsism, when he's unhealthy, while self-erasure is a rather huge fear of mine. He's also a lot more paranoid than I am, less willing to take things at face value, and it's not like I'm not also skeptical and analytical - he just rejects things a lot more firmly, more often, unless he has very good reason not to.

He is brilliant and has incredible mental indexes of knowledge on the things he cares about, politics, cognitive science, philosophy, movies, and most of all, music. To name just a few. And it's incredible, I have no idea how someone can retain so much information about so many things. And it's not just useless facts to him - having a deeper understanding of all of it seems to make his life feel more meaningful and worthwhile.

Meanwhile, I have my own obsessions, but they ultimately relate back to self-expression and identity, not just... a compilation of interesting things that make me feel competent or whatever.

We both have a lot of issues with shame and self-esteem but his revolve so much around competence - even though he doesn't always use that word, so much as effectiveness, skill, usefulness. I’m concerned with competence but that isn’t my main concern, so much as finding a way to be authentic and lovable at the same time somehow.

 

...We both have a lot of issues with shame and self-esteem but his revolve so much around competence - even though he doesn't always use that word, so much as effectiveness, skill, usefulness. I’m concerned with competence but that isn’t my main concern, so much as finding a way to be authentic and lovable at the same time somehow.

Interesting, I didn't know 5w4 would also have a notable thing for shame. That is one of the things that pointed me towards 4.

Question, does his shame hing on himself, or how he appears to the world? Like, would he be able to lie/hide an issue away to free him from its shame, or is it the issue itself that gives him shame regardless of other's knowledge?

Edit: Duh, we have a word for this. Is it image based?

 

Quite insightful topic.

Still not sure which though.

Suppose it doesn't really matter.

I am both emotional and intellectual.

Still very good points or observations being made by others.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good