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pocketDrop

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Alright, so I had to sit through a 4 lenses class at work, something I was initially excited for. However, as the class went on, I discovered that I absolutely HATED the way 4 lenses categorized people. I felt it was extremely innacurate. Perhaps it was just my instructer.

We went through a test with her, and I received orange. We then stood in groups with those who matched with us. I quickly realized that every single other person who got orange was either ESFP or ISFP. The isntructer than went through some games and stuff, while describing each personality. Of course, she described Orange as stereotypical ESFP, but then through in one or two things that are true between both Xnfps and Xsfps, and also articulated that both introverted and extroverted versions of orange exist (the same is true for every color). She then claimed that compared to MBTI, Orange represents all sensors. But that's definitely not true, following her description. What Orange described, was all extroverted perceivers, with too much of a focus on sensing, which effectively left all xNFPs completely uncategorized (no other color put an emphasis on freedom, bouncing around, having multiple interests, selective attention, etc.)

I then claimed (to a friend) that I could come up with a better system than all of the four lenses staff, in one night. I began jotting things down in my notepad, the next day came around, and I had completely forgotten about this. I just found the notes, spent 10 minutes finishing it (I'm surprised with myself. I actually finished something lol) and well, here we are. Here's how I broke down the types:

XXFP
ENFP, INFP, ESFP, ISFP
Commonalities: Fi, Extroverted perceiving

XXTP
ESTP, ISTP, ENTP, INTP
Commonalities: Ti, Ep

This was the easy part (mainly because throughout the class, this is what I thought on). See, every single FP that I have met has put a HUGE emphasis on having freedom, above all else. For S, this freedom pertains more to freedom of action. They need the time and freedom to physically challenge themselves. Physical weakness is not tolerated within themselves. They strive to be the best in some sort of physical activity. This all applies to N, however, intellectual rather than physical. We need the freedom to explore ideas, possibilities, and mindsets. To not know/understand a specific angle is to be ignorant, and ignorance of an idea is something that XNFPs seem to absolutely loathe.

Next:

XSXJ
ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ
Commonalities: Si, Extroverted judging

XNXJ
ENTJ, INTJ, ENFJ, INFJ
Commonalities: Ni, Ej

So, here's where a lot of speculation came into play, and the reason why I would like some input. All I had to go off of, was ENFJ and INFJ, as I have only spent time researching in-depth what pertaines to me. I was mis-typed as INFJ for a very long time, and both my ex and my mom were (accurately) typed as ENFJ. I knew these two types needed to be categorized together. They share the need for harmony between all, the ability to put on a mask, and the mysticism behind the Ni. But I needed a way to systematically sort the rest of the types out. I didn't have the knowledge here to just pluck two other types and add them to ENFJ/INFJ. And that's when I realized.

The reason way the above half felt so accurate, is because we shared the same core, the same introverted function, while at the same time, sharing the type of extroverted function. See the core, in the first case being Fi, is what we tend to feel strongly within. While that extroverted sensing function defines how we interact with the external world. There seems to be a ton of overlap between extroverted functions, that is easoly seen (Ie. Desire for freedom to perceive, interests that seem all over the place and are often short-lived, commonly exibiting signs of ADD/ADHD, etc.) Our extroverted function gathers information. Our introverted one sifts through it. So it makes sense that our introverted function is most intimate, regardless of whether or not it is dom or aux.

All that being said, I realized that the J half of this equation needed to have the same inner world, while the external world was split into two. This would allow the subject to REALLY resonate with their typing, while at the same time, the typing being broad enough to pertain to a fourth of the types of people out there.

What are your thoughts?? Have I got this entirely wrong? Should this just be thrown away? Would it be more accurate with some refining? Did I peg the Js correctly? Is it at all interesting? Is 4 lenses still better? Lemme here it!

If you're reading this last line, thanks for taking the time to read this ridiculously long and POSSIBLY boring post! XD

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What's the point, other than getting back at your instructor? Is there any reason to group everyone into 4 categories, other than someone else having come up with this 4 lenses thing before?
 
Just took an online test and idk its just some stereotypical crap...
Of course the result will be flawed when you try to put people into 4 categories.
The result is flawed as well though if you put people into 16 categories (mbti), just less flawed.
I believe the less categories aka possibilities to define someone and what makes them different from the others, the more flawed these categories are.

I guess your comparison makes more sense to you, for someone else with a different mbti the four lenses system of your instructor might make more sense. Respect though for putting this much effort into this.
 
Discussion starter · #4 · (Edited)
What's the point, other than getting back at your instructor? Is there any reason to group everyone into 4 categories, other than someone else having come up with this 4 lenses thing before?
Well. I didn't have the opportunity/time to explain any deficiencies that I found with anyone else, let alone had anyone else that was interested enough to listen those explanations. This was honestly more of a way to just cope with the fact that I didn't have any other outlet for my dislike of the system lol.

The instructor was good, the class is useful. I just didn't find it to be accurate, and I felt that it led to some misunderstandings.

Edit- on second thought, if I could make as much money with my version, as those who created four lenses, that'd be great!

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Discussion starter · #5 ·
Just took an online test and idk its just some stereotypical crap...
Of course the result will be flawed when you try to put people into 4 categories.
The result is flawed as well though if you put people into 16 categories (mbti), just less flawed.
I believe the less categories aka possibilities to define someone and what makes them different from the others, the more flawed these categories are.

I guess your comparison makes more sense to you, for someone else with a different mbti the four lenses system of your instructor might make more sense. Respect though for putting this much effort into this.
You are right. No matter which way you slice it, the bigger the categories, the less it pertains. I was just hoping to offer a more accurate version of the 4 categories. In the end though, it's probably equal, considering that it is still doing the same thing *scratches head*

Thanks for the compliment! Lol

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The way I feel about this is that is only a starting point but it is by no means the be all end all after all this is a very small box compared to most people out there. Some people have so much more to themselves than what four letters could ever come to close to summing up or describing.
 
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Discussion starter · #7 ·
The way I feel about this is that is only a starting point but it is by no means the be all end all after all this is a very small box compared to most people out there. Some people have so much more to themselves than what four letters could ever come to close to summing up or describing.
And that's more of what the idea. Four lenses is kinda just a quick and easy way to show people that we think differently and have different motives. It's just a quick glimpse at the idea that there is more to every person than meets the eye, and explains some reasons why people clash with each other.

And that's why I like this forum in particular. The main theory we use is MBTI, but we back with further sub categories by using things like enneagram. That helps build a much fuller picture.

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@pocketDrop. I really like how the first 2 were sorted based on judging function (Fi) plus looking at extroverted perceiving or extroverted judging. I thought it was better than the lenses thing.... but yeah, grouping according to Ni doesn't work as well as grouping for Fe in my opinion. The ENFJs often feel a kinship with the ESFJs as far as I can tell. So I might do the whole grouping for top judging function as you started. Good for decision making....maybe...
Maybe...: and I know I could read more on all this, but here's a stab.

ENFP, INFP, ISFP, ESFP-- representing the rights of individuals
ENTP, INTP, ESTP, ISTP -- unique logic and the best methods to apply to unique situations-- fascinating...am I right? I'm not sure
ENFJ, INFJ, ESFJ, ISFJ--- figuring out group morals and processes
ENTJ, INTJ, ESTJ, ISTJ --- figuring out standards and processess to apply to all

BUT-- then the SJs and the NTs are together and..... boy, I doubt the INTJs would like that much... but if there were decisions to be made this all might look good.
So I think Keirsey did a good job. I don't know why the employee stuff isn't modeled after Keirsey.

It would be interesting to base it on perceiving function. Maybe this would be useful for times when people need information, then re-group as above for how to make decisions on that information.... I don't know, just an idea...'

ENFP, INFP, ENTP, INTP--- wild Ne party lol I know how this would go! We need a white board for all these theoretical ideas!
INFJ, ENFJ, ENTJ, INTJ --- I'd like to see this in action... pretty fascinating... but it isn't extroverted so... I don't even know if we would be able to do anything but observe them getting data or interview them?. Hmm... maybe if we found the right project to get data about and they wrote it down and slept on it. Or we could show them a blueprint or a plan, give them some kind of idea. Maybe have them predict trends in their area of expertise? Or think of craft/art ideas? Or create a design....? I don't know...
ISTJ, ESTJ, ISFJ, ESFJ --- remember stuff much? lol Ask them to write a short essay about the things they have the most experience with...? Or anything that is tested over and over with accuracy. Right? So, making cookies with only 1 variation, figuring out what recipe is the best... that kind of stuff? Ugg, I'm not as good at this as I thought.
ISTP, ESTP, ISFP, ESFP --- wild Se party.... they'd get a lot of info that day.... No.. really...we could have them try out all sorts of new products. This is a excellent group for product testing that does not need testing more than once.
That's hilarious, my perceiving groups... It's so crazy that it turns out to not be very effective....except in maybe certain situations.



I had one of these same things for work a bit ago. They put ENFP and ESFP in the same category too, except that they described it as sheer ENFP. INFP even was in a different category and it left the ESFPs hanging.... instead of lenses it had to do with birds. They seem all like variations of MBTI in 4 groups. I do like Keirsey. I like being grouped with the NFs-- if we are simplifying to 4 groups. And I do think that the S groupings make more sense with J or P rather than F and T--- and that the N groupings make more sense with N and F. I definitely feel more of a kinship with INFJs than I do with ESFJs.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
@Alesha good thoughts in here! I failed to even consider keirsey because of my hyperfocus on my specific experience. My ESFP room mate and I feel such a kinship that I neglected to consider the kinships that I have had in the past, and what kinships lead to being much more productive.

I think one of my most productive groupings were with ENFJs and perhaps INTPs (which is honestly surprising? *shrug*). I didn't consider the fact that we could sort this based on 4 types that would be extremely productive in a group. Then, instead of describing the group as a personality, we could define the group as a productivity style, and highlight the different positions/roles in each. It'd be much more useful for companies. Less useful for indivuals lol

Definitely gonna think more on this later, and see if I can come up anything!

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I agree, I like yours better. TBH I prefer the XXFP XXTP grouping to the temperaments even. I understand why NF is a group because we kinda have some similar values and "feel" about us, but I always found it weird to put people together who had completely different functions. I dunno, I've always related to the SFPs better than the NFJs but maybe having not known enough of them to relate to in the first place is the problem.
 
I don't think you have it wrong as there are many different ways to categorize these things depending on how you look at it. I don't think 4 lenses is necessarily bad, so long as the groupings fit together, I guess.

I did take an animal test recently (Beaver, Lion, Otter, Golden Retriever) and after taking it, though you technically can have a primary and a secondary type in that, I still didn't feel like any of the categories fully captured my personality unless I combined bits and pieces of all of them. It felt too limiting. I don't feel limited with MBTI - especially when you combine it with ennegram. I don't think it's meant to explain every single thing about a person so I don't expect that. I do think it does a fine job though and that at the end of the day, there really are only so many different types of people in the world. You kind of gain a feel for that after being exposed to a certain amount. That's why I feel like the MBTI/enneagram does a good job.

I think FP's and TP's for sure have a lot in common and I can see why you would group those together. If you want to follow the same pattern with matching judging functions I would just do what Alesha suggested and group the FJ's together and the TJ's together. Or the NJ's and SJ's.

If I was splitting the types up myself, I'd probably do something like this:

ENTP, INTP, ENFJ, INFJ
I think these types have a lot in common as they're all intuitive types and they're all on the Ti/Fe axis. There's a reason why they often mistype for one another. I could see them working well as a team too.

ENFP, INFP, ENTJ, INTJ
It follows my same pattern basically. All are on the Fi/Te axis. All are intuitive as well. It seems like the majority of ENFP's are more on the same wavelength to INTJ's vs. INFJ's (as an example) but of course everyone is different in what they prefer/work well with.

ESFP, ISFP, ISTJ, ESTJ

ISTP, ESTP, ESFJ, ISFJ

Same reasons for these groupings. I could see them working well together and balancing each other out. All sensors, all on the same axis.

-----------
Alternatively, I'd group all of the dominant intuitive perceivers together, all of the dominant thinking judgers together, all the dominant feeling judgers together and all of the dominant sensing perceivers together:


ENTP, ENFP, INFJ, INTJ


INTP, ISTP, ENTJ, ESTJ


ESFJ, ISFP, INFP, ENFJ


ISTJ, ISFJ, ESTP, ESFP
---------



Overall though, I think I prefer the Keirsey model like Alesha said - because I feel like all NF's tend to focus on the same things even if they have a bit of a different approach. Same for the other temperaments. But when you add enneagram into the mix - well, that's a whole other can of worms.
 
@Vivid Melody I like those ideas! Can you imagine how much abstract info would come out of that ENFP ENTP INFJ INTJ group? Wow.... then get the next group to listen and make decisions based on it! LOL. Interesting to think of these things... I’ve put together focus groups for qualitative data. They were usually groups like “Who is in this target population (easy) and who is willing to come (difficult)? We will give a $20.00 Walmart card. Please!”
 
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