I'm just more sensitive about how my words and actions affect others? It was something I realized I needed to work on as I got older.

 

Humans are not rpg characters. Antagonist functions work at the expense of their opposite and personalities are a hierarchy of preferences. High F, low T. High E, low I. You can't be high on N E T I and F at the same time. If that most basic reasoning doesn't make perfect sense to you, you aren't ENTP.

 

Humans are not RPG characters, but at the same time, our minds do not work that rigidly. Function theory does operate on a basis of "give and take" just as you said, but at the same time, it's not that black and white. There's a reason function theory is celebrated for its fluidity when compared with personality theory.

With that being said, I never claimed that an ENTP's use of Fe could HEALTHILY overshadow their use of Ti. I simply said that I have a well-developed Fe for an ENTP. That's it. Ti is definitely more natural for ENTPs since they are Ne-Ti users, after all, but that doesn't mean that their tertiary Fe needs to remain underdeveloped or is fated to stay that way. I think that you may be moreover examining the functions as isolated entities as opposed to pairs. Ti needs Fe and vice-versa. Ne needs Si and vice-versa.

 

It is not either one or the other, it is however always the more one the less its antagonist. Otherwise they aren't antagonist in the first place. Then we would observe personalities dominated by extreme display of N and S, or T and F etc. Never happens. And this is or isn't. A reasoning is consistent or isn't. What is not right is wrong. Truth is not a matter of viewpoint or frequency, only introverted sensors believe it is and that's why they suck at science.

As I implied above the Ne-Ti system already makes no sense in this regard. If one favors E it's gonna be favored with every functions. Jung didn't pretend otherwise and nobody ever provided arguments to backup Ne-Ti. It's just something people parrot without justification. Is it what an ENTP would do..

 

It is not either one or the other, it is however always the more one the less its antagonist. Otherwise they aren't antagonist in the first place. Then we would observe personalities dominated by extreme display of N and S, or T and F etc. Never happens. And this is or isn't. A reasoning is consistent or isn't. What is not right is wrong. Truth is not a matter of viewpoint or frequency, only introverted sensors believe it is and that's why they suck at science.

As I implied above the Ne-Ti system already makes no sense in this regard. If one favors E it's gonna be favored with every functions. Jung didn't pretend otherwise and nobody ever provided arguments to backup Ne-Ti. It's just something people parrot without justification.

You say this as if MBTI and function theory aren't forms of pseudoscientific theory, lol. People cannot "parrot without justification" on things that exist solely on paper. Things like the laws of gravity and the laws of thermodynamics are non-negotiable because they're practical laws - universal truths. But Jung's work, or at least in the realm of cognitive functions, has always been theory.

Anyway, going back to what you said in your first paragraph...it's a bit contradictory. Extreme displays of intuition or sensation would be much more prevalent, I feel, should you just examine functions based on dichotomy and not a function level. Because in that case, ENFJs would be "just feelers" with "low-level, non-existent Ti" and ENTJs would be "just heartless workaholics" with "no morality to speak of". The functions allow for a possible reconciliation between contrasting types. Granted, that reconciliation or "balance" will never be perfect because yes, one function will always be favored over the other - I never said that this wasn't true - but again, I think you're still looking at this in a black and white fashion.

 

I said nobody ever displays a high preference for antagonist cognitive functions. X PLUS -X. That's why I'm not contradicting myself. There is no high sensing, feeling, judging or introversion in the mind of someone who is at various degrees dominated by each of their antagonists. Claiming to have one's judgments dominated by introversion as an extraverted person is not only logically retarded but if this was even the case, then feelings would be introverted by default. After all, introversion would dominate the judgments.

I'll tell you what is pseudoscientific: dismissing observations based on the misunderstanding of the observer. Jung tried to explain some observations. Wether they are cognitive functions is up to debate but you better come with actual arguments other than how the theory is pseudoscientific or unpractical. So, is extraversion a real thing and a real antagonism to introversion? Wanna argue it's not, maybe?

 

No thanks, I'll pass. Not because I don't have a rebuttal of my own but because I don't think this conversation is going to get anywhere. Clearly, we both subscribe to very different theories, and I for one don't care to learn any more about yours, especially if you're going to use slurs and insist that those who oppose you are "stupid". And as a side note, I hope you know that it's the majority of this forum that you're deeming as such.

 

Lol the Aiwass stalking and harassment continues.

 

Jesus. Christ. On a skateboard. I must have been away too long. I don’t recall @IDontThinkSo ascending to Sith Lord (I’d prefer it to be Nazgûl, but to each their own). I do recall humorously angry drive-by snide remarks. How the world has turned.

I was going to say something about the topic, but now I can’t recall what it was. Both the topic and what I was going to say.

 

I was going to say something about the topic, but now I can’t recall what it was. Both the topic and what I was going to say.

Looks like we’re in the same boat!

 

You better never forget that you started here as an INTJ and claimed that ENFJs were authoritarian when they use their inferior TI. And now that for some reason you're a feeler you're looking for validating clues that it works the opposite way. That's your level of critical thinking...

 

I started here as an INTJ, so what? I got interested in typology when I was a fuckin’ 16-year-old teenager. It took me time to develop my understanding about myself and the theory. And hey, nice to know you’ve been stalking my posts ^^

I still think ENFJs can be authoritarian. This can be due not only inferior Ti FWIW, but due to the whole structure of the type. Similar to how ENTJs are.

Similar to how you are. At least I admit my flaws and shortcomings when it comes to consistency, but you are at a whole different level of lacking self-awareness. You’re not only extremely pushy when it comes to your views, you’re extremely intolerant to all sorts of interpretations that don’t fit into your pre-made framework. And you claim to be a Ne dom for God’s sake, the type that is supposedly more interested in variety, novelty and openness lol.

 

Still there trying to claim out of thin air that both TI and TE are authoritarian when it suits your needs, so much for admiting your shortcomings in consistency.

'bout 22 years old now? The typical apex of human arrogance, being on forums and playing the intellectuals, FFS I was younger than you and already had my own share of scientific discovery but wouldn't dare to. Sure tell me more about how many years you didn't change your mind about cognitive functions while you never brought anything new the the table and blame me for not being interested in it. You're just an ant arguing with one of my toe hair because that's the only thing that is at your scale.

 

The fact that this thread died without any discussion of the actual topic...may I get an F in chat, lads?

 

may I get an F in chat, lads?

Only if it's for "Feeling!" HEY NOW!

How do my feels manifest? The way that comes to immediately to mind is that I have become relatively adept at reading people's emotional state. While I know some folks who consider themselves awfully good at this, and masters of feels in general, I have the advantage of not getting nearly as emotionally invested as they do in a situation. This allows me a much more calculated strategy based on what those around me are feeling like. The problem lies in effectuating said strategy in an adroit manner.

 

There are no such things as objective and subjective skills or personal and impersonal skills. Try to think about how you associate words for a second.

And of course it has nothing to do with having a WEAK preference for either T or F which is generally the case of those who have a STRONG prefererence for N over S.

That is not to say you entirely miss the point since not everyone can have a STRONG preference for anything and its opposite, which a so called NE dom-TI user with a strong FE usage suggests as it suggests that person is strongly into N E I T F P and J at the same time.

Typology has settled with nothing you did and I already exposed how it cannot make sense so feel free to be the first coming up with an actual counterargument.

Basic definition is that of Jung's and it doesn't work with what you said, as I explained here many times.

 

You dismiss any information that does not fit with your worldview and then tell the other person that they need to provide the evidence. That shows you are High Si. Ne is novelty seeking and Ne doms would be energised by new ideas. At the same time having a potential mistype between two alpha extroverts who use the same functions in very similar ways does in no way make you a fraud. Its merely the typing methodology and stereotypes being atrocious and the existing theory failing to capture the true diversity of types. Due to your Ti use I would expect most tests to give you EXTP and with you being on the Si/Ne spectrum ENTP would be the logical conclusion. Except you don’t show any Ne while taking things in and acting in a personal matter. Thats F from the external perspective, but from yours your clearly T.
The fact that you cannot differentiate between objective/subjective, and personal/impersonal is because F doms are completely blind to the very notion objective/impersonal behaviour. ENTPs are highly sensitive of the need to differentiate between or Ti preference and the subjective reality of the human world. That Difference is in our face every day, F Doms on the other hand take everything personally because you don‘t become aware unless you actually do it. T doms on the other hand tend to outright reject the personal, unless they gain advantage by manipulating people for objective gain.
You seem genuine and are acting out of ethical principles. But us Fe types suck at self awareness and if you are a ENTP you would be aware of your infallibility, and be constantly questioning what you know.

 

But you're all models of objectivity and inventivity and I'm the evil obtuse one trying to change your mind about something.that shouldn't ever be questioned especially such a deep wiki-grade knowledge that you lots display.

 

Please PERC give me someone serious to talk with. Tired with watching this perpetual comedy.

 

And by the way, @IDontThinkSo , there's a way to flex your intellect without stooping to the use of childish insults.

Or rather, if you're going to be derogatory, you could at least be more clever about it. Where are my first degree burns? My ice maker is getting impatient.

 

Then it doesn't seem like you know

And by the way, @IDontThinkSo , there's a way to flex your intellect without stooping to the use of childish insults.

Or rather, if you're going to be derogatory, you could at least be more clever about it.

Would it be smarter for me to pretend that I'm talking to an intellectually mature being when that someone is you?

What exactly is your level of mental development for attacking my style instead of my arguments, up to a whole straw man that you wildly extrapolated after a testimony that you immediately credited without any investigation.

Do you expect me or anyone rational to believe that you're ready for a mature debate?

 

Why would you be able to treat anything seriously and professionally when you're admittedly that shallow and quick to withdraw. You're emotionally stuck with how I classified you as someone who can't be what you wish you would, for a reason that you have yet to properly invalidate, and yet your new reply is just another red herring.


It's such a parody. The frauds calling me a fraud because I expose them. At least you lots try to agree with fighting the same strawman, I don't know, T dom, F dom, what should it be? Oh but according to your common lack of logic it could be both at the same time.

At least you all have a common point. You don't try to win a debate by exposing the inconsistency of someone else's arguments. Instead you just claim it is or play the victims and resort to red herrings.

 

Wow, you’re really...dramatic. Were you perhaps a theatre kid in grade school?

Anyway, moving on! I literally told you, like, on page one that I was done discussing this with you specifically because we’re never gonna see eye to eye, and I’m not one to keep beating a dead horse. I only @‘d you because your bad vibes are stinking up this thread. Nothing you’re saying is even relevant to the topic anymore. You’re just playing devil’s advocate by arguing with people...using the same points...over a theory that’s been bastardized by Buzzfeed. Drop it! Read a book! Go outside! Play in a park!

 

And before anyone wants to counter with the misconception that I’m too “uwu” for this website, LMAO, I want to reiterate that I’m not asking for a woobified, sugarcoated discussion. I’m not a child, and that kinda thing isn’t very fun, anyway.

What I do request, is basic etiquette - the common sense to not throw names and insults around like confetti.

 

My use of a word is unoriginal? Your use of "and" and "an" but also "of" and "the" are also completely unoriginal. What kind of point that makes? You keep using the most childish attacks so give me a rest. You can't even follow your own advices as r-word and ableist aren't in the thesaurus.

Reputation, delivery, you think an innovator care for those? It is, instead, the typical concern of those who can't contribute and win their spurs as an adult. Reeks of social anxiety for sure, you're trying way too hard to act older and more competent than you are.

 

Lmao, of course grammatical articles and conjunctions are “unoriginal”. They’re used to create coherent thoughts so we don’t articulate ourselves like cavemen. And they have very few, if any, substitutes. Nouns, on the other hand, well...those are a dime a dozen. Surely, you can come up with better insults that don’t attack an entire group of people and are also as clever as you claim to be. I ask once more: what kind of grown adult uses the r-word?

And...oh my God, the way you implied that being courteous and self-aware is a “childish” phenomenon🥴🥴 I have to LAUGH. Self-concept, according to most developmental psychologists, is at its most shallow during a person’s formative years, hence why children are more likely to make offensive remarks - because they don’t yet have the self-awareness that adults with more developed pre-frontal cortices do. That should be common sense, anyway, research aside.

Sooooooo, coupling that with your own lack of self-concept - as well as your backwards, contradictory reasoning - that would make YOU the childish one in this equation. Point blank. I’m tired of pointing fingers over something as meta as maturity for crying out loud. Just admit that you need to work on your communication skills and exit this thread. Go play devil’s advocate elsewhere.

 

I don't get why no one was in agreement with IDTS about the point about how people are not RPG characters. That analogy makes sense, actually. I mean, Jungian theory and its adaptation into MBTI, basically, generates a template for how humans take in information and make decisions as a result of the information taken in. This process is highly automatic, and unless someone has a dissociative identity disorder, one will always be automatically favored over another.

This is an example I like to give, because it so well highlight the automatic thought process that happens in a thinker vs a feeler (particularly Ti vs Fe)
When the US extended an indefinite travel ban to the UK, my INTP fiance discussed options we might have in getting married, since, at the time, the UK wasn't accepting visas from the US, either. One option we discussed was eloping in another country, and, once married, then our travel could be classified as 'essential travel' and we could go from there.
My fiance, thought in terms of: he did research, he looked for a viable option. This was one what made sense.
My top thought was: What will my friends and family think about this? Would this be considered a proper thing to do?

The question came out of my mouth without having to even think about it, and it was something he hadn't even really considered. I chuckled a little when comparing this thought process to mine. It's not like I had to consciously think "engage Fe: oh yes, feelings of others, that is important. Engage Ti: It would be a viable option and it's not looking like the country is opening up anytime soon". It was an automatic thought process.

That being said, I believe most of us understand how the human brain works, and, in fact, that there are many here who likely understand it better than I do. There's been much discussion, lately on the idea of neuroplasticity and how the brain's structure can reshape itself around habitual neural activity. I do believe there is a difference, particularly in girls vs boys when it comes to having a thinking preference. Most children want to have friends, and dislike being social outcasts. For boys it's generally less complicated to achieve this end: engage in activities together. For girls, this can be much more complex: girls generally generate more complex social rules upon their friend groups and shame people who don't follow them. It can be a habitual thing for female thinkers to "fake feeling", to a point that, the second a female thinker is in the company of other females, the brain automatically responds, "other women are are in the room, better act like a more typical female so as not to receive their scorn." It could be why a thread titled "I really dislike gatherings with other women" is found in the NT forum. It seems like this would be a typical NT female issue, as the company of most women, who are typically feelers and generally expect all the women to act like feelers can be exhausting, particularly when you consider the following:

Going back to my fiance: he was in a University group project in which people would comment on each other's ideas and rate each other's comments. The other other people in his group were all women. It's more than likely, they all had feeling preferences, as they are, as I had stated before, far more common in women. They would comment on what they agreed with, while he would comment on what he disagreed with: a typical masculine trait, but, I also find, a typical NT trait in general. They would always rate his comments poorly, because they believed he should be in more agreement with their comments. But he stated that it doesn't make sense to comment on what you agree with, because you have nothing new to add.

Myself, being an INFJ female, actually struggle with this mentality as well: I see a lot of things on social media that make me cringe, and I want to comment "That's not actually true..." but my first instinct to tell myself, "Don't do it, because you'll upset other people." As person who exhibits Fe before Ti, my most automatic mental function is "don't hurt other people's feelings." Now, imagine being an NT female in this situation: the mindset of "don't hurt other people's feelings" isn't automatically what comes to mind when posting or saying something. But you have all these memories of your female peers shaming you for speaking your mind. You might still hold back for saying things that, in your experience, have hurt the feelings of others, because you think "I've been shamed for saying things like this in the past, so better not say it. Better to just move on"

TL DR: People have automatic preferences when it comes to S vs N or T vs F, clearly, but female T's sometimes learn to fake being an F around other females, so as not to be shamed by them.

 

Yes! Thank you for bringing up the difference between someone's natural inclinations over something one can learn but still put into practice well. That had been my intention since the beginning of this thread: to acknowledge the ExTPs who have well-developed tertiary functions to the point of being Fe-passing in some cases. I wasn't looking to discredit the fundamentals of function stacks nor imply that one can be a jack of all trades when it comes to exhibiting their functions, smh, but it would seem that some people are willfully illiterate.

As you were saying, instinct plays a big role in which of our functions is preferred over others. You said that you're more inclined to take a step back and consider people's feelings before coming forward with your thoughts, and I'm very much the opposite, or rather used to be. Growing up as the eldest daughter in an Asian household, I was confined to some pretty unforgiving social conventions, so I was conditioned to be "accommodating" and "polite" from a young age. But that's the thing. It was mostly, if not all, conditioning. Learned behavior. Really and truly, it's having to play this part that is more draining to me than being confrontational and as impartial as best as I can. You likely feel similarly but in reverse, I would assume? Tertiary function and auxiliary function interactions really hit different, lmao!

 

You were arguing about misunderstandings between the definition of "high fe" for 70 posts?

Likha meaning high as in deviation inside of the ENTP archetype and IDTS meaning high preference over the other functions?

 

I was thinking that. I actually found it to be an interesting topic, partially due to the inevitable ambiguity of the language.
At first I wondered if she meant "High Fe in comparison to Ti" or "High Fe in comparison to other ENTPs", and concluded it was likely the latter.

You likely feel similarly but in reverse, I would assume? Tertiary function and auxiliary function interactions really hit different, lmao!

While I don't mind disagreements, I find conflict draining, generally, so I carefully word my thoughts in such a way that states what I think while giving as little offense as possible.

 

I think I will keep being me but outside of this forum. Tired of killing zombies. They keep coming back with the same sophisms and the certainty it will make a difference, over, and over, and over.

 

you are the most annoying person ive ever had the displeasure of reading
the asian girl entp needs to learn to say "okay bro" when someone who is clearly wrong argues with them over topics like this that have no concrete answer. not everyone has anything of value to add
i mean to argue over Fi and Fe....honeslty....you literally sat there and typed 'an extrovert will lean more towards introverted feeling because ntp's score high in Fi' or something along those lines...Fi is a judging function, entps dont do that, 'deep awareness of ones own values for the purpose of internal values'. the constant state of an entp is to have no set values and i dont think ive ever felt "internal harmony" outside of a great orgasm....

getting back to the point of this post, i came here trying to solve the problem of how to connect to others, i assume that is the purpose of asking about Fe. but the purpose Fe in entps is different from others. the understanding of extroverted feeling is for the purpose of using it to enhance our Ne. and then to use that understanding of the emotional states of others to mess with them and see what makes them tick. less so to do with harmony or being close to others. even to make others feel better is not really the purpose of entp having Fe as the third function.

someone said you cant fix Fe or fi by using Ne or Ti. i guess it depends on the individual. but the last function of the 8 is Se for and entp. most people are sensors, so on some level use the external environment to connect. such as what clothes they wear, what friends they have, what stuff they own. entps are one of the types more inclined to be naturally attracted to high intelligence and attributes that manifest from strong intrinsic traits rarely seen in others.

one person, i forget who said that high fe manifests in being aware of how your words might impact others, but when an entp is not allowed to be blunt and straightforward and to the point they feel part of themselves isnt being genuine. i suspect that comes from Si inferior function at 4. deep down inside you you know you held yourself back making you feel not completely understood.

if the purpose of asking how healthy Fe manifests was to better understand how to better connect to others (i would say thats why i came here but instead got the most pointless debate ive ever read) then it would be a change in how we use the Fe that would lead to more connection. also developing Se so you have more tangible real life things to discuss and share with others. even leaning less on Ti for interpersonal connections could lead to better connections because people better understand imperical data that can be proven because yes, our internal framework is usually right, but it often takes most people a long time to understand our real perspective. to them it can look unconvincing because most people dont look at the world both sided

dont take my word for it, my Fe is in the toilet but i would say im good understanding other peoples feelongs quickly and i have a few very strong bonds with others im close to. they tend to all be intuitives though

 

Annnd another zombie that begs to be killed.

 

I'm always rather entertained by any thread IDTS frequents he always garner such strong responses from other people that are just so disproportionate to things he posts, but I've never read a post that wasn't at least a little insightful and he rarely gets antagonistic, if ever, unless someone else is antagonistic with him first.

BTW, @Red Panda, I've been reading (listening) to Psychological Types, and Jung's description of extraverted intuitive types, and he describes them as not experiencing either thinking or feeling very strongly, and both thinking and feeling can be repressed. Is he, when describing types, typically describing the more extreme examples or a typical example? You had interesting insights on the intuitive dominant vs auxiliary thread I had made, so I wanted to hear your thoughts on that...

 

I'm always rather entertained by any thread IDTS frequents he always garner such strong responses from other people that are just so disproportionate to things he posts, but I've never read a post that wasn't at least a little insightful and he rarely gets antagonistic, if ever, unless someone else is antagonistic with him first.

Yea it's super interesting, when I first interacted with him I did feel a challenge which put me on the defensive for a bit, so I think I can grasp what it is they react to but then it's entirely up to them to decide what to do with it. And it's very interesting how almost all choose to shut down completely.

BTW, @Red Panda, I've been reading (listening) to Psychological Types, and Jung's description of extraverted intuitive types, and he describes them as not experiencing either thinking or feeling very strongly, and both thinking and feeling can be repressed. Is he, when describing types, typically describing the more extreme examples or a typical example? You had interesting insights on the intuitive dominant vs auxiliary thread I had made, so I wanted to hear your thoughts on that...

He does describe the theoretical extreme of how each type is, but I don't think it's entirely so theoretical. It's interesting you bring this up because I've been thinking about it lately as I find myself wondering sometimes if I don't really prefer F because I see myself having quite a bit of T influence in the mix. Even the above example with IDTS reactions is relevant to this as the gut feeling of "this feels bad, let's avoid" is something that tho I might feel, I can also challenge and sort of put on pause to allow T to consider it in an impersonal manner, though it's always guided by N+E wanting to get more information, the bigger picture and especially in case I'm wrong and they're right and I need to find out. And many times I'll end up changing how I felt about it. So the idea that perceivers experience a mix of judging functions seems believable. I see this especially compared to F doms I interact with who really go hard with their F and rely entirely on sorting things this way. It makes even me become exhausted sometimes as there's no room for maneuvers from my perspective. This is sorta an easy way to guestimate if people here are perceivers or F doms. There's also a more day to day use of T especially with things that don't really matter to me, I'll often judge what to do based on impersonal factors like the size, weight, proportions etc of whatever it is I'm doing and try to find the most objectively effective way to get it done. F does come more effortless in the end though.

BTW you might enjoy this book The Psychology Of C.g Jung : Dr Jolande Jacobi : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Jung himself, in another book, included a drawing of the personality diagram this author made

 

Want some new stuff the medias don't want to talk about ?

Human Genome Project Fact Sheet

A fact sheet detailing how the project began and how it shaped the future of research and technology.

www.genome.gov

Many countries that host the main pharmaceutical industries have a similar plan. Yours, mine, China, Britain, probably more. What they say: you'll let them decode your DNA for your own good. What they want? To decode and monopolize the best genes then progressively get rid of those who can't afford it. What they needed? An opportunity to deregulate bioethic laws and destroy conventional medecine: a virus, and vaccines that rely on genomic tech.

 

This forums always reeks of toxicity no matter how friendly the discussion starter sounds

 

Have you been lurking before joining to come to that conclusion or just only read this thread?

 

In my experience, ENTP's often initially vibe as ENFPs (NeFe) creates that appearance, and vice versa, ENFPs (especially males) can come off as ENTPs (NeTe), that is until you get a taste of ENTP's Ti sword and ENFP's Fi toothlessness of course.

same switch applies to ESTPs (SeFe) and ESFPs (SeTe).