[A Better Tomorrow]

I wonder if INFP sex drive can relate to the particular enneagram of the infp? I have a pretty high sex drive centered around romance, affection, passion, and experimentation, but as far as just having sex to get off, I am not really into that. I am a type 4. Anybody else have any input on whether or not sex drive can relate to enneagram?

 

[Sequestrum]

To me, sex is a way to physically express my emotional love and bond with a woman. Obviously then, if I have no emotional love or bond, sex is pointless to me.

I don't know if I understand the term "casual sex" correctly. I think that it means having sex with someone you just met and don't know? If that's correct, then I don't think I could ever do that just because I can't physically get into a woman without knowing her and loving her. Sometimes, those feelings of love have come quickly to me though. I was once in a relationship with a girl I had been admiring for a while, and about a week after we started dating, she literally dragged me to her room one night.

When my wife and I first started dating, she did the same thing too (drug me up to my own room, actually). I tend to date aggressive women apparently, hehe. I've had sex with 3 different girls in my life, and I felt deep love for each of them. When I have sex, I definitely focus on the partner more than myself. It is actually kind of rare for me to climax during sex because of this. I usually focus all of my energy on climaxing my partner, actually kind of a game for me, hehe. >.> I'll try to keep track and beat my score the next time around. I imagine a lot of INFP's are like this though, maybe not making a game out of it, I mean, but focusing your energy on your partner.

 

[Sequestrum]

I wonder if INFP sex drive can relate to the particular enneagram of the infp? I have a pretty high sex drive centered around romance, affection, passion, and experimentation, but as far as just having sex to get off, I am not really into that. I am a type 4. Anybody else have any input on whether or not sex drive can relate to enneagram?

Sex drive has more to do with hormones than anything. This is generally a combination of age, genetics, health, and gender. Testosterone is mostly responsible for your libido, both men and women have testosterone (obviously men have more, hence why we are typically more sexually driven than women). The higher your balance of testosterone, the higher your sex drive typically is. However, as an INFP, you would also need to have a method for quickly forming attachments in order to justify the feelings, that might very well be attached to enneagram types, it seems theoretically possible.

 

[wisdom]

I don't know how you've come to that conclusion. Have we been reading the same thread? It seems to me that most INFP's desire an emotional bond before sex. If two INFPs knew each other and liked each other, why the hell wouldn't they develop a relationship?

1. "Know" vs "know well"
2. Expression of interest

Unless they're roommates or something, it would be much harder for one INFP to bother getting to know another well without much sexual interest, and I presume it would also take libido to make a move physically despite seeming natural reluctance and probably not encouraging signs on the other INFP's part.

 

[bromide]

I wonder if INFP sex drive can relate to the particular enneagram of the infp? I have a pretty high sex drive centered around romance, affection, passion, and experimentation, but as far as just having sex to get off, I am not really into that. I am a type 4. Anybody else have any input on whether or not sex drive can relate to enneagram?

I've had this conversation before and the conclusion we came to is that sex drives are far more related to physiological factors such as hormones. I, personally, am a very withdrawn 5 but I have always had an annoyingly high sex drive.

Edit: Sequestrum beat me to the punch, I second him

 

[Sonne]

In reading the newer posts, it dawned on me that even if they know each other, it's almost impossible for two INFPs to have a relationship with each other unless at least one of them has a fairly strong sex drive.

This makes sense on some level. One has to initiate and make the initial request or else both will be waiting forever. I would want someone to be a little more aggressive than I am since I'm more reserved, as long as they're not pushy or overly aggressive. But if both of us have low sexual interest in the other, then it's unlikely that it's gonna go anywhere. I think sex drive is less important than sexual interest. If someone has a high sex drive and their only interest is in satisfying that drive, then that's not gonna work. But if their interest is in the person and their desire for sex is based around that, then that's good.


On another note, I don't process sex as a need. I prefer time spent together as the goal and sex as the means to be with the person, not the ends. Sometimes, I have very strong pangs or feelings for my partner but yet when I check my feelings, I find it's not a desire for sex. I simply want them with me or near me. I tend to let whatever the moment brings decide rather than prejudge. I try not to approach it as "it must be good" or "it can't be bad or else". It is what it was. And I don't see it as a need but a desire to be with someone I feel close to. Which is why one of the worse feelings I've ever had is realizing when someone only wanted sex to simply scratch an itch. Gave me a sick feeling. I don't always see sex as immediately connected to feelings either. But it definitely will suck or feel empty if my partner is simply using me to get some.

 

[wisdom]

This makes sense on some level. One has to initiate and make the initial request or else both will be waiting forever. I would want someone to be a little more aggressive than I am since I'm more reserved, as long as they're not pushy or overly aggressive. But if both of us have low sexual interest in the other, then it's unlikely that it's gonna go anywhere. I think sex drive is less important than sexual interest. If someone has a high sex drive and their only interest is in satisfying that drive, then that's not gonna work. But if their interest is in the person and their desire for sex is based around that, then that's good.

Here's where my sig comes in. Only a horny, obnoxious person is likely to bother a keep-away-from-me INFP who hardly is trying to look good to anyone but herself (or himself), unless that INFP is naturally good-looking. A like-minded person might appreciate the artsiness of so-called average INFP, but will be very unlikely to pursue romantically based on that unless, say, it's an INFP admirer with a high sex drive.

 

[CrabbyPaws]

I would only give myself to the person I loved, truly loved, like I have with my boyfriend. The idea of promiscuity or casual sex repulses me, I can't understand why people degrade themselves in that why by giving away something so intimate to a random person. And I especially don't like people who do this for 'rebound' or to feel a thrill. I think that's pretty weak that you have to fuck someone random to feel a thrill, I don't know about you, but I can feel a thrill knitting, or watching a movie, or looking at the sea. That just says a lot about your self-esteem and state of mind, I think.
I wouldn't say I value my partners satisfaction more than mine at all, I think that is an equal thing, I can't enjoy sex if he isn't satisfied, but I also wouldn't continue having sex with him if my needs weren't given some attention too. Then again, I do get a lot of satisfaction from his satisfaction, so I don't know.
I am very slow to warm up, and I didn't get to anywhere near sexual things with my boyfriend until we were together for 2 and a half years, and not because anyone stopped us or it was looked down upon, I just didn't feel ready yet.
A lot of people picture INFP's to be into a very "make-love" version of sex, which isn't nessesarily true. Once I've opened that door with the person I loved, the fun is endless. I personally don't like slow lovey sex apart from my first few times, I like being taken and dominated and dirty talking. So I don't need something emotional in the actual act, but I would only ever do the act with someone I was emotionally attached to.

 

[Runvardh]

I found emotional freedom in celibacy because I don't like the way the brain gets flooded with all those
feel good/happy hormones that turns sex into an addictive longing, like a drug that makes you on the lookout
for your next hit.

After all those hormones die down, the feeling of not needing sex is so freeing. I find my spiritual practice
way more euphoric, and I feel less like some beastial thing.

Sounds a bit holier than thou, but it's not, it's just based on a decision on what give me
the most fulfillment.

At least you can do it... I find that no matter how far from it I try to get, I'm an animal and that's all there is to it and the harder I try, the harder the instincts rebel.

 

[bromide]

I would only give myself to the person I loved, truly loved, like I have with my boyfriend. The idea of promiscuity or casual sex repulses me, I can't understand why people degrade themselves in that why by giving away something so intimate to a random person. And I especially don't like people who do this for 'rebound' or to feel a thrill. I think that's pretty weak that you have to fuck someone random to feel a thrill, I don't know about you, but I can feel a thrill knitting, or watching a movie, or looking at the sea. That just says a lot about your self-esteem and state of mind, I think.

That's one high horse you're on right there. Not everyone sees sex as some sort of sacred bonding experience, a lot of people enjoy casual sex. This is not because they have low self esteem, are weak, or want to degrade themselves, but because they simply don't see it as the be-all-end-all of human interaction. Sex is just an act, it only has the significance that you choose to give to it.

 

[ParetoCaretheStare]

When it comes to pleasing the other person, that's never been as issue for me. When it comes to it being completely mutual, that won't happen until I meet "the one". Idealists will be idealists. The only person I've ever been in love with described our experience as "perfect". To me, the sex was terrible looking back at it, but I was so incredibly, blindly in love with his goddamn self that I didn't even care. Just looking at his stupid face was enough for me to be happy.

I'm so pathetic.

 

[CrabbyPaws]

That's one high horse you're on right there. Not everyone sees sex as some sort of sacred bonding experience, a lot of people enjoy casual sex. This is not because they have low self esteem, are weak, or want to degrade themselves, but because they simply don't see it as the be-all-end-all of human interaction. Sex is just an act, it only has the significance that you choose to give to it.

That's true, I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound arrogant, but it is the way I view sex and I have strong feelings for it in a moralistic way. I meant for me that is how it seems because sex is such an intimate thing for me I couldn't imagine giving it so freely, I guess I shouldn't have assumed people who don't agree have low self esteem.

 

[perfectcircle]

That's true, I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound arrogant, but it is the way I view sex and I have strong feelings for it in a moralistic way. I meant for me that is how it seems because sex is such an intimate thing for me I couldn't imagine giving it so freely, I guess I shouldn't have assumed people who don't agree have low self esteem.

I think it's partly the way you think of it as "giving something away", to you sex is a part of yourself.

On my end
If it goes well it's giving to someone out of an ever-returning spring of you know, whatever sex is, sexual desire and capability doesn't tend to run out. It could end up being a gift that you don't have to lose but others can recieve.

And it can also just be bodily functions. Like, if the sex was terrible, I don't see that as shameful or losing anything at all. I think that's a trap, you've been told sex is Supposed to mean love or perfection or some exchange of souls/promises so you are made to feel shamed... this is a gernal you, not you yourself, I am aware you've chosen your choices and they are legitimate. Just in my case... it isn't self degredation. It's the opposite. It's the refusal to feel degraded about my choices and the realm of experineces I want to venture into, but am secure in myself and my body to venture to new vistas and if I don't like them , not feel bad about it or myself.

I don't equate sex with part of my soul or anything, it's just an act, like words, and the signifigance of those words or that physicality depends on WHAT I manage to express with them, who I'm talking to, but that doesn't mean I'm never going to talk.
/Iloveanalogies

 

[Geoffrey]

When it comes to pleasing the other person, that's never been as issue for me. When it comes to it being completely mutual, that won't happen until I meet "the one". Idealists will be idealists. The only person I've ever been in love with described our experience as "perfect". To me, the sex was terrible looking back at it, but I was so incredibly, blindly in love with his goddamn self that I didn't even care. Just looking at his stupid face was enough for me to be happy.
I'm so pathetic.

-----I'm sorry if you feel pathetic. I am not going to tell you how to feel. All I can say is that from my personal perspective, there is nothing pathetic about falling deeply in love. It's just that for NFs, and maybe INFPs in particular, we don't realize that most other people don't fall in love the same way we do. We tend to learn this the hard way when we fall in love with someone for the first time. We value differences and can completely accept someone despite them, but this does not come naturally to other types. So we find ourselves accepting someone and tolerating, and usually admiring, the different skills/strengths they bring to the relationship--but that attitude and accompanying feelings are neither accepted nor reciprocated. One of the most painful things I've heard in my life is when I asked someone I deeply loved why they fell in love with me in the first place, and she answered, "For your potential." What she was really saying is that she never loved me for who I am--rather, she saw me as something that could be molded into the person she actually wanted. As selfish as it probably sounds, I have developed a strongly held value and expectation of reciprocity. This isn't reciprocity in the sense of keeping score--it means that in addition to meeting the needs of the other person in the relationship, now, having identified my needs in a relationship, I expect those needs to be met as well. I need to be loved for who I am, right now, without an expectation of change, and if the other person can't meet that need (in which case I also suspect they don't really love me, anyway), then that person does not deserve the complete acceptance and unconditional love that I give. In fact, a one way relationship would be established where I am being actively drained to feed the other person. That's not love; that's a mosquito bite.
-----Below are a couple of tidbits I thought you might find useful.
~~~~----~~~~----~~~~
-----I am an Enneagram 9, I think (not certain), and that is one of the top 3 for INFPs. Check out the description of level 6 (average, bordering on unhealthy) and then do the same
for level 1 (most healthy):
-----Level 6: Begin to minimize problems, to appease others and to have "peace at any price." Stubborn, fatalistic, and resigned, as if nothing could be done to change anything. Into wishful thinking, and magical solutions. Others frustrated and angry by their procrastination and unresponsiveness.
-----Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-possessed, feeling autonomous and fulfilled: have great equanimity and contentment because they are present to themselves. Paradoxically, at one with self, and thus able to form more profound relationships. Intensely alive, fully connected to self and others.
-----The best part about the Enneagram is that wherever you are now, you can always grow.
~~~~----~~~~----~~~~
-----The 51% Rule - The 51% Rule says that we need to consider our own needs just a little more that those of others in order to be able to help them effectively. Source: The 51% Rule.
~~~~----~~~~----~~~~
-----Dear Neil: I have been involved with my boyfriend for three months now and our relationship has gone from bad to worse. The only great day we’ve had together was our first date. From the day we started going out I’ve tried to get close to him, but he has created this barrier.
-----The less affection and intimacy he has shown, the more frustrated and demanding I have become. We are constantly fighting as I keep asking “Do you care about me?” I expect him to say “Yes,” but instead he just gets mad, or says “You know the answer” or “What do you think?” I even told him I love him. I didn’t expect him to tell me he loved me, as I know he doesn’t. I just wanted him to say something—anything to make me feel good about myself. He said “You’re forcing me to say things I don’t want to say.”
-----Sometimes I feel like I’m being used. He is the first I’ve slept with. I am confused and frustrated as I don’t know where I stand. I don’t know if he has any feelings for me. Am I just someone to fill in the time till something better comes along?
-----Upset In Wellington, New Zealand
~~~
-----Dear Upset: Your boyfriend is in a casual relationship with you. He is being careful with his emotions, guarded with his heart and emotionally standoffish and non-committal. He can take you or leave you.
-----You, on the other hand, are acting like your self-esteem is completely dependent on his approval and commitment. That gives him way too much power over you, because all he has to do is withhold affection or act like he doesn’t care—and you’ll do anything to get him to give you more. He is always in control, therefore, and you are always feeling inadequate, undervalued and rejected.
-----Here’s what I’d recommend: stop groveling at his feet and begging him for crumbs. Tell him you only want someone who wants you—and no matter how desperate or needy you feel—enforce that rule. That means that if he is unable to value you the way you need for him to, refuse to see him. Don’t force him to lie or to say things that aren’t genuine or that he doesn’t feel. If he doesn’t value you, drop him and find someone else who does want you.
-----Don’t give your heart to someone who doesn’t give their heart back to you. It leaves you feeling too inadequate, vulnerable and needy, and you’re setting yourself up to get hurt and rejected.
-----One more suggestion: do something to improve your self-esteem, so you don’t wind up in a relationship like this again. If you don’t value yourself as worthy of a reciprocal, affectionate, caring and warm relationship, others won’t either.
~~~
-----Dear Neil: My last two relationships have been with women who have been burned by men in the past and therefore walled off to me. It’s okay to be aware and cautious of what has happened in the past, but be careful in doing so that you don’t stop good people from getting close to you.
-----Ontario, Canada
~~~
-----Dear Ontario: You are right. So, quit giving your heart to women who can’t reciprocate, and quit falling for women who can’t or won’t fall back. Find someone who wants what you do, and has the ability to emotionally give back to you.
-----Source: Relationships Require Reciprocity: Recognize When Someone Is Walled Off to You.
~~~~----~~~~----~~~~
Emotional Unavailability: Recognizing It, Understanding It, and Avoiding Its Trap. Bryn Collins.
~~~~----~~~~----~~~~
-----Love is not pathetic. Loving people are therefore not pathetic. You are a loving person. Therefore, you are not pathetic.
-----Love is a divine gift. Loving people are therefore divine gifts. You are a loving person. Therefore, you are a divine gift.
-----And such gifts deserve to be treasured. You are a treasure. So treasure yourself. And in treasuring yourself, you will expect to be treasured (and not tolerate those who don't treasure you)--and so you will attract the kind of men (or women--not trying to be presumptuousness) who will treasure you.
-----You deserve to be loved. And you also deserve the same kind of love that you give.
~~~~----~~~~----~~~~

 

[perfectcircle]

-----Dear Neil: I have been involved with my boyfriend for three months now and our relationship has gone from bad to worse. The only great day we’ve had together was our first date. From the day we started going out I’ve tried to get close to him, but he has created this barrier.
-----The less affection and intimacy he has shown, the more frustrated and demanding I have become. We are constantly fighting as I keep asking “Do you care about me?” I expect him to say “Yes,” but instead he just gets mad, or says “You know the answer” or “What do you think?” I even told him I love him. I didn’t expect him to tell me he loved me, as I know he doesn’t. I just wanted him to say something—anything to make me feel good about myself. He said “You’re forcing me to say things I don’t want to say.”
-----Sometimes I feel like I’m being used. He is the first I’ve slept with. I am confused and frustrated as I don’t know where I stand. I don’t know if he has any feelings for me. Am I just someone to fill in the time till something better comes along?
-----Upset In Wellington, New Zealand
~~~
-----Dear Upset: Your boyfriend is in a casual relationship with you. He is being careful with his emotions, guarded with his heart and emotionally standoffish and non-committal. He can take you or leave you.
-----You, on the other hand, are acting like your self-esteem is completely dependent on his approval and commitment. That gives him way too much power over you, because all he has to do is withhold affection or act like he doesn’t care—and you’ll do anything to get him to give you more. He is always in control, therefore, and you are always feeling inadequate, undervalued and rejected.
-----Here’s what I’d recommend: stop groveling at his feet and begging him for crumbs. Tell him you only want someone who wants you—and no matter how desperate or needy you feel—enforce that rule. That means that if he is unable to value you the way you need for him to, refuse to see him. Don’t force him to lie or to say things that aren’t genuine or that he doesn’t feel. If he doesn’t value you, drop him and find someone else who does want you.
-----Don’t give your heart to someone who doesn’t give their heart back to you. It leaves you feeling too inadequate, vulnerable and needy, and you’re setting yourself up to get hurt and rejected.
-----One more suggestion: do something to improve your self-esteem, so you don’t wind up in a relationship like this again. If you don’t value yourself as worthy of a reciprocal, affectionate, caring and warm relationship, others won’t either.
~~~

I liked the bold..........

My version of letter..

Dear Upset: Your boyfriend is in a casual relationship with you. He is being careful with his emotions, guarded with his heart and emotionally standoffish and non-committal. He can take you or leave you.
-----You, on the other hand, are acting like your self-esteem is completely dependent on his approval and commitment. That gives him way too much power over you, because all he has to do is withhold affection or act like he doesn’t care—and you’ll do anything to get him to give you more. He is always in control, therefore, and you are always feeling inadequate, undervalued and rejected. I'm sure your boyfriend doesn't want you in this position either; he'd rather be with an equal, and by fishing for emotional reassurances he doesn't want to, has made clear he doesn't want to give, you are forcing an issue on the relationship that otherwise would not exist: We cannot casually date unless you love me. That's your position. Do you find that at all unreasonable? After a grand total of 3 months, he is ENTITLED to throw in all his emotional chips. Newsflash, no one is entitled to choose you. But it's not wrong for someone to date casually without loving the other person. It's not wrong for someone to be slow to open up to their emotions, or to date to have fun and get to know what type of person they want to be with, or have new experiences. Love grows or just happens, and your boyfriend doesn't love you. So why are you beating him over the head with a this dead issue? "Love me, love me, love me." he can't do it, and that's ok.
Its' normal behavior on your boyfriend's part. On your end, it's coercive and manipulative, needy and innapropriate and uncomfortable and shows a total lack of holding on reality.

Wish I could write this to my boyfriend and switch the gender roles.
I can never communicate myself they way I want to. I hate how people always bring love into things. If you love someone that's great, that's genuine, but it is only the responsibility of the person who lovse the other to tell them if the do or do not. Being in a relationship with someone does NOT mean you are entitled to love them. And having someone love you doesn't mean you have to love them back. You can't fake feelings that are not in your heart, and the other person should stop trying to coerce people into loving them because of their situation. Anything other than what is willingingly given is fake and it shouldn't be asked for.
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH so angry.

 

[Cthulhu And Coffee]

I'm a virgin but am speaking as someone who has done just about everything that leads up to it. I don't KNOW if it'll be that much different when I do. But, in fear that it will, I've decided to wait until I really fall in love to finish. This response is based on all that I have done:

(1) I have never required a deep connection before doing anything, nor have I ever opted to try and leave it at fooling around. I'm not sure if it's because I don't want to be called easy, or because I'll want a commitment AFTERWARDS. However, my ex and I began fooling around early and decided to quit, because it got to be extremely awkward, jumping from just barely dating to messing around whenever he came over. We said we would stop until we were caught up mentally and ended things before that happened.
(2) The closest I've come to any casual romantic encounters was making out with a stranger. I did give him my number (perhaps for one or both of the reasons stated in #1,) spoke to him once NOT about what happened, and he never called again. I did feel used. I've since gotten over it.
(3) Maybe?

 

[PumpkinEater]

personally, i can't imagine sex to be that big of a deal. i talk to even my most open firends and they say "I'm gonna wait two years with my bf!". i'm still a virgin, and i don't really want to give it away to just anyone, but it's not that important. there's a very little interest in sex for me. in that, i understand it. i'm not curious. i'd obviously like to have it one day, and i also don't really believe it's something that you need to be "ready for". it's guna gross and painful the first few times, get over it hahaha. maybe i'm just cynical today, but sex is sex. i don't really need anybody to love me. idk what that's all about. but when i'm older and i decide that someone's very interesting in a sexual way, i'm not going to be afraid to do it then get all awkward and think i'm horrid.
my body is just a tool i use. it's not yours, nor is it mine. it belongs to the earth and once i'm dead it'll be taken back. i might as well do what i want with it and those things should not define me.
sex evokes different textures and feelings. it's fascinating in the sense that every sense is working, but is it a beautiful thing? depends on the relationship. someone i hate? horrible. someone i think is kind of a jerk but just a fling? horrible. someone i don't really know but find very interesting and introcit? amazing. someone i'm in love with? beautiful.
that's what i think, anyways.

 

[Belovodia]

At least you can do it... I find that no matter how far from it I try to get, I'm an animal and that's all there is to it and the harder I try, the harder the instincts rebel.

It only came with disciplined spiritual practice and it was well worth it.
I like the quiet joy that isn't dependant on anything or anyone outside of myself, I
find it way more fulfilling.

Yeah, there's always the battle with our animal natures, but I find there's nothing
like it when one triumphs. This is not a moral judgement or to make
our lower natures bad; simply that pain can be on the other side of pleasure. And
my perceptions have changed immensly over the years; it's taken me a long time
to come to certain realisations about what works for me and what doesn't.

 

[Geoffrey]

I liked the bold..........
My version of letter..
Dear Upset: Your boyfriend is in a casual relationship with you. He is being careful with his emotions, guarded with his heart and emotionally standoffish and non-committal. He can take you or leave you.
-----You, on the other hand, are acting like your self-esteem is completely dependent on his approval and commitment. That gives him way too much power over you, because all he has to do is withhold affection or act like he doesn’t care—and you’ll do anything to get him to give you more. He is always in control, therefore, and you are always feeling inadequate, undervalued and rejected. I'm sure your boyfriend doesn't want you in this position either; he'd rather be with an equal, and by fishing for emotional reassurances he doesn't want to, has made clear he doesn't want to give, you are forcing an issue on the relationship that otherwise would not exist: We cannot casually date unless you love me. That's your position. Do you find that at all unreasonable? After a grand total of 3 months, he is ENTITLED to throw in all his emotional chips. Newsflash, no one is entitled to choose you. But it's not wrong for someone to date casually without loving the other person. It's not wrong for someone to be slow to open up to their emotions, or to date to have fun and get to know what type of person they want to be with, or have new experiences. Love grows or just happens, and your boyfriend doesn't love you. So why are you beating him over the head with a this dead issue? "Love me, love me, love me." he can't do it, and that's ok.
Its' normal behavior on your boyfriend's part. On your end, it's coercive and manipulative, needy and innapropriate and uncomfortable and shows a total lack of holding on reality.
Wish I could write this to my boyfriend and switch the gender roles.
I can never communicate myself they way I want to. I hate how people always bring love into things. If you love someone that's great, that's genuine, but it is only the responsibility of the person who lovse the other to tell them if the do or do not. Being in a relationship with someone does NOT mean you are entitled to love them. And having someone love you doesn't mean you have to love them back. You can't fake feelings that are not in your heart, and the other person should stop trying to coerce people into loving them because of their situation. Anything other than what is willingingly given is fake and it shouldn't be asked for.
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH so angry.

-----I'm not 100% sure I'm getting the whole message you are trying to communicate, so hopefully my reply is responsive. Mostly, I'm just trying to clarify what I've already said.
-----I'm not judging people who are dating for reasons other than to find love or are still trying to figure out what type of person they are interested in or whatever. That's not what I am saying.
-----What I think I hear is that you are saying, "Just because you love someone, they are not obligated to love you back." Does that sound right? I agree with that statement.
-----However, both people in a relationship are entitled to have their needs met. Maybe not all of them, but definitely the most important ones. And it's usually the case that two different people have two different sets of needs. Perhaps you don't like the word "entitled"? I don't mean that if Jack loves Jill that he is entitled to Jill's loving him back. Not at all. I mean that if Jack needs love, and if he is in a relationship with Jill, and Jill does not love Jack or doesn't want/need love, then Jack is entitled to find someone else (other than Jill) who will love him back. After all, if Jill is having her needs met (whatever she's getting out of the relationship--maybe an opportunity to explore), why should Jack stick around? In this scenario, Jill is perfectly content receiving but never giving--that's not fair to Jack. However, if Jack demands that Jill love him or he will leave the relationship, then Jack is using emotional blackmail. Jack should respect Jill's autonomy--her choice and ability to love who she wants to when she wants to. But why should he stick around if he's not getting anything out of the relationship? Jack should leave Jill. Jack can find someone who he can love and who can love him back. Jill can find someone to explore a relationship with who isn't looking for love. Jack and Jill are looking for different things that cannot be reciprocated by the other. Jill cannot reciprocate love. Jack cannot reciprocate an exploratory, "no pressure," no-commitment relationship. If Jack thinks Jill is simply not ready to commit but may soon be, he may wait around for a reasonable amount of time, but if Jack respects himself he won't wait around forever for Jill to decide.
-----In short, both Jack and Jill should have openly communicated about their expectations, needs, approach, and so on in regard to their relationship. That way, neither of them is wasting the time of the other. There is a big difference between knowingly entering a non-reciprocal relationship and unknowingly entering a non-reciprocal relationship.
-----I wholeheartedly agree that anything other than what is willingly given is fake and it shouldn't be asked for.
-----After or before everything I write are the invisible INFP-Type 9 words, "in my opinion." I just don't see the need to write those words in the INFP subforum.
-----As a side note, the main reason I wrote what I wrote was to affirm someone who I see has a beautiful soul (I think you do, too) and to provide information that might contribute to the search for self-understanding. I think it is all too easy for INFPs to extremely undervalue themselves, since we tend to try to hold ourselves to an alien (majority) standard. Personally, I think it is important for an INFP to open himself/herself up early in life to all aspects of relationships--social, sexual, emotional, and so on. Relationship skills are just like any other skill--it takes practice to get good using them. I wouldn't want to find my soul mate just to ruin that relationship with my undeveloped relationship skills. Further, we usually only find out what we really want in a relationship after having been in a few--it creates a data pattern from which we can extrapolate what we can and should reasonably expect from ourselves and someone else in a relationship. It makes us more realistic in regard to what we can expect. At the same time, that's my opinion, and someone like the woman, above, who is looking for love is entitled to look for love her way. Her way is likely neither your way nor my way. All three of us have to march to our own beats--take our own path. I think you are quite correct in saying that in a relationship, neither person should expect the other to abandon their path in favor of the others'. So long as the paths are relatively parallel, the relationship will work. However, in the case of Jack and Jill, their paths are perpendicular--and for them to walk together would require the other to abandon their path. It's just time to part ways for them--without negativity. And there's nothing wrong with that. Both people will be happier with partners who are walking parallel paths--who are looking for the same things, and who are at the same place in their lives.

 

[perfectcircle]

-----I'm not 100% sure I'm getting the whole message you are trying to communicate, so hopefully my reply is responsive. Mostly, I'm just trying to clarify what I've already said.
-----I'm not judging people who are dating for reasons other than to find love or are still trying to figure out what type of person they are interested in or whatever. That's not what I am saying.
-----What I think I hear is that you are saying, "Just because you love someone, they are not obligated to love you back." Does that sound right? I agree with that statement.
-----However, both people in a relationship are entitled to have their needs met. Maybe not all of them, but definitely the most important ones. And it's usually the case that two different people have two different sets of needs. Perhaps you don't like the word "entitled"? I don't mean that if Jack loves Jill that he is entitled to Jill's loving him back. Not at all. I mean that if Jack needs love, and if he is in a relationship with Jill, and Jill does not love Jack or doesn't want/need love, then Jack is entitled to find someone else (other than Jill) who will love him back. After all, if Jill is having her needs met (whatever she's getting out of the relationship--maybe an opportunity to explore), why should Jack stick around? In this scenario, Jill is perfectly content receiving but never giving--that's not fair to Jack. However, if Jack demands that Jill love him or he will leave the relationship, then Jack is using emotional blackmail. Jack should respect Jill's autonomy--her choice and ability to love who she wants to when she wants to. But why should he stick around if he's not getting anything out of the relationship? Jack should leave Jill. Jack can find someone who he can love and who can love him back. Jill can find someone to explore a relationship with who isn't looking for love. Jack and Jill are looking for different things that cannot be reciprocated by the other. Jill cannot reciprocate love. Jack cannot reciprocate an exploratory, "no pressure," no-commitment relationship. If Jack thinks Jill is simply not ready to commit but may soon be, he may wait around for a reasonable amount of time, but if Jack respects himself he won't wait around forever for Jill to decide.
-----In short, both Jack and Jill should have openly communicated about their expectations, needs, approach, and so on in regard to their relationship. That way, neither of them is wasting the time of the other. There is a big difference between knowingly entering a non-reciprocal relationship and unknowingly entering a non-reciprocal relationship.
-----I wholeheartedly agree that anything other than what is willingly given is fake and it shouldn't be asked for.
-----After or before everything I write are the invisible INFP-Type 9 words, "in my opinion." I just don't see the need to write those words in the INFP subforum.
-----As a side note, the main reason I wrote what I wrote was to affirm someone who I see has a beautiful soul (I think you do, too) and to provide information that might contribute to the search for self-understanding. I think it is all too easy for INFPs to extremely undervalue themselves, since we tend to try to hold ourselves to an alien (majority) standard. Personally, I think it is important for an INFP to open himself/herself up early in life to all aspects of relationships--social, sexual, emotional, and so on. Relationship skills are just like any other skill--it takes practice to get good using them. I wouldn't want to find my soul mate just to ruin that relationship with my undeveloped relationship skills. Further, we usually only find out what we really want in a relationship after having been in a few--it creates a data pattern from which we can extrapolate what we can and should reasonably expect from ourselves and someone else in a relationship. It makes us more realistic in regard to what we can expect. At the same time, that's my opinion, and someone like the woman, above, who is looking for love is entitled to look for love her way. Her way is likely neither your way nor my way. All three of have to march to our own beats--take our own path. I think you are quite correct in saying that in a relationship, neither person should expect the other to abandon their path in favor of the others'. So long as the paths are relatively parallel, the relationship will work. However, in the case of Jack and Jill, their paths are perpendicular--and for them to walk together would require the other to abandon their path. It's just time to part ways for them--without negativity. And there's nothing wrong with that. Both people will be happier with partners who are walking parallel paths--who are looking for the same things, and who are at the same place in their lives.

oh whoops angry letter wasn't even to you.
I need to be careful I do that a lot, I just respond to the idea/material but because I quoted the person they think I'm confronting.