emotional manipulation?
you mean like toying with others emotions with a particular word structure or and false sense of care, to make someone feel happy, but then quickly make a snide statement saying otherwise, therefore making them sad?

or like a euphemism? such as changing one's state of being by providing ego-boost or false sense of euphoria?

 

Ok, this is a very broad topic

Indeed.

criticisms or views are invited..
I am interested with how this is processed in INTJ-land...

Hypothetical scenario like this is not processed well, how about making your question a little more defined or raise more points / scenarios / examples before saying "discuss". Currently this topic is so shallow that you need ladders to reach it.

 

Indeed.

Hypothetical scenario like this is not processed well, how about making your question a little more defined or raise more points / scenarios / examples before saying "discuss". Currently this topic is so shallow that you need ladders to reach it.

I am an intuitive perceiving type.. My personality suggests that I am almost the very definition of "broad".. I am leaving it open for other people to do that themselves.. I just thought it would be an interesting topic area.. I left a thread like this in ENFP land and it was a large thread.. :tongue:

 

to person above me "sanskirt" how did you score so high on verbal/linguistic and introverted? O_O

 

I read a lot, so I have high vocabulary and also I have a political flare that makes me a good speaker, but it does not mean I like interacting at all times, being verbally adept it very INTJ like quality actually.
Manipulation with words is kind of our turf.

 

Hey, thanks for another broad topic left open for discussion. I think it could be even more broad, and the responses would really start flowing.

 

Emotional manipulation is something I grew up with - both of my parents are masters at it, albeit for different purposes. Since I was born into it, the constant clash with my personality caused more than a little distress over the years. It took quite sometime for me to recognize exactly what had happened, and how I had allowed it to work on me. Due to not processing emotions very well, it created a weakness that they took advantage of, my mother especially.

Upon recognizing what was happening, and my role in that little play, I was able to change my reactions and therefore halt the cyclical behaviors. This did not occur without a fair bit of tantrum throwing on the other end, but eventually they learned I wasn't going to be manipulated that way, and the tantrums are shorter in duration and frequency than they used to be.

Granted, there are other ways for this topic to go, but after my own experiences, and the level of emotion this kind of manipulation produces in me, I avoid it.

 

wow... when i was a kid i either just sat in a corner and played legos or drew mazes. i don't think either activity has emotional manipulation other than a remedy to fight being bored.

 

Ok, I have updated the original post (if that helps).. Thank you @Coonsy for your post.

 

OP sounds like Charlie Brown's teacher right now.

 

*wheeeeeeeeeeeew pushchoooo* thread go boom.

 

"Reflectance to actually maintain communications" - Does not result in being wearisome.
Nor have you defined "emotionally hurt".
"You do know that "I" is capitalized?" - Is this a question or a statement?
Also, <--- you forgot comma.
"thesaurus skills" <--- please enlighten me with your majestic wisdom as to what this actually is.
Liberal arts, then again <---- you forgot comma... again.
"there, let me demonstrate" <---- "Let me"?, are you asking me?
"And while you [...]" <--- I was not aware sentences started with AND, you must be quite the perfectionist your the arts of writing.

You suggest standards, yet do not define nor make reference to support clues as to what these are. In any case i suggest clarity ought to be made a priority.

Without much support, I fail to understand as to where the numbers 90 and 99 of a percentile came from. Thus, I can only assume your illogical approach to a rebuttal should be taken as a joke.

I believe social "standards" (as you say), call for a: LOL ROFMMLLL.

I'm done. I believe my meter is quite up there as well, up being equivalent to empty, I must go part.

 

"Reflectance to actually maintain communications" - Does not result in being wearisome.
Nor have you defined "emotionally hurt".
"You do know that "I" is capitalized?" - Is this a question or a statement?
Also, <--- you forgot comma.
"thesaurus skills" <--- please enlighten me with your majestic wisdom as to what this actually is.
Liberal arts, then again <---- you forgot comma... again.
"there, let me demonstrate" <---- "Let me"?, are you asking me?
"And while you [...]" <--- I was not aware sentences started with AND, you must be quite the perfectionist your the arts of writing.

You suggest standards, yet do not define nor make reference to support clues as to what these are. In any case i suggest clarity ought to be made a priority.

Without much support, I fail to understand as to where the numbers 90 and 99 of a percentile came from.

You amuse me, well done.

 

Or perhaps just for your consideration: There are different types of intuitive functions. (intuitively interpreting the available data)

That is exactly what ENFPs do, and it is our dominant function. ENFPs have extroverted intuition. You share introverted Intuition with INFJs. Though the introverted intuition is different from Extroverted intuition, that function still enables you to project, connect dots and extrapolate from available data. Making connections is what intuition is all about.

Oh, I saw "Social standards" mentioned. lol.. That made me laugh considering from a sociologists point of view - common sense and "social standards" are not constants. They are all variables, thus conflicting with the very nature of the idea of a "Standard".. A social standard can be very hard to pinpoint, especially considering that they change from society to society..

 

Keep in mind a sociologist is not one to have knowledge of neuroscience, the main function and bridging to why people do the things they do. In any case a "social standard" does not change from society to society, rather ideology to ideology, given it is shaped by society, it would be more appropriate to say from dunce to dunce.

Based on my observations it seems like you want us to meet you "halfway", a term I have heard many times, yet fail to understand. It is the speaker's responsibility to create the "lines", or in any case make them more distinct as opposed to vaguely opaque, if you will.
I cannot stress enough, as to how imperative it is to not insinuate a person can use intuition to "read between the lines", provided an open mind will examine it as being an incomplete inquiry, lacking fundamental understanding as to what should be answered.

 

It's not about "reading between the lines" as you seem to have interpreted your leaps of Ne (something which always will confound an INTJ is Ne) it's that your question left several lines blank, and as a Ne dominant filling in those blanks is what you do. Ni dominants don't fill in the blanks, we ask the questioner to please not leave sentences out of their questions.

My apologies, I will remember this for next time. I have spent a lot of time with ENFP forums, so I will have to be careful with how I word things in future. :happy:

 

As I have time now I will say that I utterly loathe manipulations on me. I avoid trying to manipulate people myself as I like to stay independent and to not rely on anyone unless I can reimburse them.

I also grew up with manipulations from my father. He has a lot of NPD and BPD traits. I tend to unwittingly choose partners who are manipulative too...so I stay single now to stay more content.

You name it, I've pretty much seen the rainbow of manipulations on offer from humankind. Surprisingly I still like humans even though I tend to think they fundamentally suck.

I guess there are mild to severe manipulations. I don't tend to fall for people trying to apply guilt situations on me. I usually throw it straight back at them by playing the passive aggressive card. This means I simply GTFO leaving them high and dry whilst they bitch and moan about how terrible I am. I really don't like people who use guilt as a form of currency.....they can fall off the earth as far as I'm concerned.

There is the "feel sorry for me I'm pathetic" manipulator. I agree that they are pathetic and do as above....pretty much having no empathy whatsoever towards them. I will tell them to their face to "man up" then GTFO leaving them high and dry whilst they bitch and moan about how terrible I am.

These people tend to utterly hate me as I don't pander to them. My father is one of these but he doesn't hate me at all...confounding man. He will adjust his behaviour and try buying me back until he can feel confident enough to start the cycle over again. It's excessively boring and draining....it also affects every other encounter you have with people when you have manipulators in your life. They tend to suck freedom away from you and they are unpredictable sometimes which makes you wary of everything you say. I like to cut every tie to these people just for the peace.

EDIT:

I forgot to mention the "projector". These people will say really horrible things they think you might be doing behind their back or to them so you will be ultra aware of how bad you are. You find out later it's because that's exactly what they were doing to you....the cheeky barstards. So you have defended your honour numerous times to them and feel slightly paranoid that you may be inadvertently hurting someone's feelings all the time. I don't know how many times this has happened....a lot? How I deal with it now is to GTFO and........see above :wink:

 

Emotional manipulation. Its angering, I personally don't have much of a grasp on my emotions at the best of times, they're not allowed out because they do silly things.

If someone tries to force feelings on me then I cut off communication.

 

When a workmate says: "I need a strong man.",
I respond: "OK, I'll go look for one!".

 

I think this topic is very interesting, so it's a shame it has degenerated into a my writing skills are bigger than yours pointless discussion. I don't see what's wrong with the way the OP formulated the question to be honest, seems horribly simple to me: "emotional manipulation: discuss!!"

I am very easily manipulated by Fe (to my shame), even when I see it coming a mile away, it still works on me and I have to consciously fight against it, usually going along with their demands and feeling bad about because it shows my weakness and the power they have over me or rejecting them completely which leaves me dealing with the full blown guilt they were trying to project onto me in the first place.

I am particularly sensitive to guilt trips. For example, the slightest hint of:" if you don't come to our social event you will ruin our fun" is poison to me. I will either attend "resenting" the people that have put me in that position for "forcing me through guilt" to do something I don't want to do or I will say yes, because Fi hates to disappoint, and later on I will find a good excuse that is no confrontational (I can't go rather than I don't want to go) or I will have to stand my ground and say no, which I will find uncomfortable and unpleasant. Either way, the manipulation has left me feeling bad for different reasons.

ENFJs are masters to do this to me.

I am interested in the INTJ view on manipulation for personal reasons, the INTJ I know could not understand how I can be affected by manipulation so badly, and would blame it on me, so for me it's really interesting to see how manipulation (perhaps Fe manipulation, although Fi passive aggressive manipulation is interesting too) is seen by INTJs.

 

The OP before edited was much more sparse than the version that is there now. It is easier to see what parameters OP wants to discuss by terms of his definition and asks how INTJs process it. I find it interesting that a fellow Fi user albeit dominant Fi user will react as violently as I would. I know the reasons why I do as I have had a manipulative parent. I have a fairly high Fi and it has directly impacted on me as I developed.

The difference I can see is the way we deal with it. Pretty much with five minutes with my father now and I am asking why he has to be such an irritant prick....his answer..."to keep me on my toes". I might say that out of my family I am the only one that acts in such a defiant way to manipulation. I continually call him out when no-one else will....it's too hard, it's too obvious. I see it as a courtesy to tell people they are being manipulative...it doesn't have to be an all in saga of who can be the most abusive as I'm sure that not everyone means to be so malevolent....it gives them choice to think, reflect and see another person's point of view.

I can be passive aggressive too though. I don't necessarily use passive aggressiveness as any form of manipulation....it's simply an underlying anger whilst I am remaining calm enough to slip away unnoticed. It is usually wasted on people I barely know because I feel there will be no fun if I tell them how manipulative they are and they demonise me to their hoards. I keep interaction to a minimum. I don't feel guilty about refusing to be around them. I have been known to get up and walk out of dinner parties. Not to make a statement or a fuss, just because I really think life is too short to waste on sitting around with pretentiousness as a gleaming veneer whilst just feeling surly and unsatisfied.

Whilst I can see that Fi in both INTJs and INFPs can have huge differences in perception. I also think that simply different individuals will use different approaches to manipulation as well. Obviously not all INTJs will want to stand up and hit people over the head with their flaws. Some are much more subtle than me whilst some can be far more cutting.:mellow:

 

I don't understand why you wouldn't use emotional manipulation. Seeking your own fulfillment without regard for others is only rational to me. Manipulating emotions is just consciously influencing emotions with a goal in mind. Why on earth would you leave it up to blind chance to get what you want? Going after what you want is a virtue.

I'm not a monster, I don't want to harm anyone. I guess I wouldn't do something if I could see it was clearly abusive.

 

I don't understand why you wouldn't use emotional manipulation. Seeking your own fulfillment without regard for others is only rational to me. Manipulating emotions is just consciously influencing emotions with a goal in mind. Why on earth would you leave it up to blind chance to get what you want? Going after what you want is a virtue.

"Speak your mind, look out for yourself, the answer to it all - is a life of wealth. Grab all you can, because you just live once, you got the right to do whatever you want. Don't worry about others or where you came from, it ain't what you were, it's what you will become..... So what have we become? A self-indulgent people.. Selfish people" - (Kevin Max, Michael Tait & Toby Mcheehan, 1995).

 

Keep in mind a sociologist is not one to have knowledge of neuroscience, the main function and bridging to why people do the things they do. In any case a "social standard" does not change from society to society, rather ideology to ideology, given it is shaped by society, it would be more appropriate to say from dunce to dunce.

My minor was in Sociology and Psychology was my degree. From what I have studied, social normative systems are not biologically determined. Social standards change from culture to culture. There certainly are inbuilt human instincts, needs and wants, those are neurologically proven, but social norms and standards is a sociological issue and are definitely not a universal concept. One might even argue that the concept of "common sense" is a variable that is distinguished by a cultural setting (ie. variable normative system). Theorists such as Max Weber, Karl Marx, Emile Durkheim, G.H. Mead, Talcott Parsons, Herbert Blumer, etc. all suggested that social normative systems (which was referred to in this thread as "social standards") do not exist universally.

In the world of social sciences, this is just an accepted fact.

 

What sorts of experiences have INTJs had with this? Have you been on the delivering end or the receiving end?

More on the receiving end.

Recently, I've had the misfortune to deal with one. We hadn't talked for years, and it was only recently that we talked again. She started out playing nice, using lots of fluff in her conversation, and appearing to be cooperative.

Yet as we talked more, she started complaining about various people, even those I don't personally know. It was then I realized her 'nice front' was really her ticket to getting people to listen to her first and accept her as a 'nice person' before she unleashed a barrage of biased, unjustified and irrational complaints about how the whole world was (and probably still is) mistreating her.

It became obvious to me that she was playing victim, unwilling to change, and putting blame on everyone. It's usually "not her fault." She expected everyone to be mind readers, to be sensitive to her feelings, and to fix her problems for her.

How have you dealt with it?

Initially, I gave her the benefit of doubt. But I'm not blind; eventually, I identified her as a manipulator. Once that was that, I saw no meaning in such conversations with her, so I became rather unresponsive.

She thought I was being passive aggressive, and I could tell; she did tell me, and in fact emphasized, how she usually gave silent treatment to people she had issues with. When I became unresponsive, she said she sensed that I was "emo" and somehow my silence was "hurting" her. Truth was, I felt nothing much, just perhaps mild irritation.

Funnily, she decided to use that passive aggressive behavior on me. Wow, I couldn't ask for more. I've had others who pestered me so much I shut down all communication channels with them.

It helps nobody if I let her play around with my emotions, I resent her, and we end up bashing each other up. I'm not masochistic, she is, so well, I guess it's a win-win?

 

*sprays you all with de-lousing powder*

 

"Let them have cake" - Marie Antionette.

I like cake.. It's fantastic..

 

And here I was thinking that ENFPs had issues with staying on topic.. I suppose that there are some INTJs that share the same issue..

 

What I've seen the posts last two pages have been more on topic than three previous to those. But then again, it is amusing to see you try to wiggle your way out of the hole you dig for yourself, so go ahead if you please.

 

I see some "emotional manipulation"in this thread.Hope that is enough to answer all your questions about that topic, dear OP.*Goes and lols alone in a corner*


Note:Not a native speaker so please don't be too harsh*goes back to the corner*

 

tbh, i do not what it means to be an 'adult'. Seeing that most grow up and adapt to society according to what others see fit, or habitually "appropriate", in regards to behavior and conformity, being an adult = being a scripted, predictable robot.

 

My mother is extremely manipulative. Also, it has never affected me because it seems that manipulation of any kind has never worked on me. Also, when i find it to my advantage to manipulate people i will, but there has to be one hell of a good reason for it.

 

My mother is extremely manipulative. Also, it has never affected me because it seems that manipulation of any kind has never worked on me. Also, when i find it to my advantage to manipulate people i will, but there has to be one hell of a good reason for it.

You seem to have an emotion ! : Guilt.....Sad Sad... get rid of it or remain a nazi conformist cheerleader.

 

My mother, who recently typed as INTJ (seems accurate but it wasn't my initial opinion) was subject to emotional manipulation from her narcissistic mother and did not deal with it AT ALL. Emotional repression, projection, low self esteem, social anxiety, and even narcissistic qualities were the result of this. She never learned from her mother's mistakes and ended up pulling some of the exact same crap on me.