I'm not a Ti dom, however I am a Ti user and have been around Ti-doms for a significant period of my youth.

My dad was an ISTP and brother is an INTP. Father believed the Bible, my brother doesn't (but he also never looked into it or studied it at all, he just disliked the concept of there being a God from the start).

A few things:

- The Bible doesn't contradict itself. When properly translated, it's quite the opposite.
What the Bible is, is complicated. It's meant for dedicated study, not for glancing at or just memorizing without deep comprehension of the topic.

There's both the Old and the New Testament, which are perhaps the most seeming contradictory elements within the Bible... but it's simply a change of administration.
The Old Testament includes many references of the New Testament which was to come. The Law as it was handed down by Moses was never meant to last forever, it was meant to last until Christ came... and it says as much.

Which is why the Jewish people to this day look forward to the Messiah coming... they don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah and so they are still anticipating that event and following the old laws.... whereas Christians believe Jesus was the promised Messiah and so most Christian denominations quite sensibly follow the New Testament and are less bound by the Old Testament law.


Back to talking Ti-doms... I was raised in a church where the teachings focus on showing members how to go through verses one at a time, look at the basic translations and other interpretation material (such as the customs of the region and time period), along with comparing those verses back to others on the same topic.... all in a very in depth way.
The purpose being to obtain a true understanding, and not just be going on someone's say-so, but to know it really says such and such for ourselves.


This strikes me as incredibly Ti oriented.
In fact, I would even say that much that I understand about logic is rooted in the instruction I had on Biblical study. It was not feeler-oriented type stuff.

I would conclude with saying that I believe Ti is actually an excellent tool for understanding the Bible.
The Bible is about complexity and inter-related concepts.... something that Ti understands very very well.

One of my teachers, Jon Nessle, actually has a few books out on amazon kindle... I would wager that most MBTI enthusiasts who read those books would lay odds on him being a Ti dom if they read his writing... because nothing, absolutely nothing, is "just because" with him... the books he has written are each extrapolating on very particular subjects in a highly detailed way.


I'd also like to say that I believe every function can relate to the Bible in it's own way. It's not a closed market just for a few.
In a church environment, you find all sorts of different people and different personality types... everyone has their own way of appreciating it.

 

Well @Rebecca.M pretty much just said it all but I'll throw in my two-cents. While a lot of Ti doms may be non-religious because it's hard to reconcile the concept of faith with their logic-based worldview, the ones that are Christians are not Christians "just because". They have thought it through and come to a decisive conclusion, which, as a Christian, is something I really admire.

 

Many other Ti leads have chosen not to be Christian for presumably the same mechanical reasons...

 

Ti-dom here. It's not exactly difficult for a Ti-dom to harmonize apparent contradictions. It's what we do.

 

The bible is garbage

 

Raised in a Christocentric environment, I can tell you that the Bible and Christianity in general is like a treasure hunt with directions that change every 2.3 seconds.


In other words: it's frustrating, and you either give up, or stop worrying about where or why it's taking you.

 

Well I am aux not dom

But I call myself agnostic more so. Or Non denominational rather than Christian. For me the bible is an object with history and relgions and theology try to translate it and there are many various interpretations. Because I am so grey and believe so much is relative based on reality in which we see it to me alot of it is just context. And interpretations.

So I am not so much professing Christian. But I believe there is at least some relevance in the bible at least in symbolism, historical, metaphorical etc. Ie do I necessarily subscribe to how modern religions have adapted their own contexts into literal or right vs wrong or only options not so much.

Theology is an interesting subject to me tho. I have had alot of unique exposure to religions. I guess I lean towards that science and faith sort of all are connected. And likely whatever answer which tends to in my opinion not be able to truly be proven but I suspect they all are inter connected. Science is sort of just as relative as a bible imo and radical atheism as well as radical religious fandom all seem sort of limited thinking.

I actually work at a convent. Youd be amazed how many nuns are theology experts and are not limited in their thinking.

 

Because dominant Ti does not automatically equal smart. Kind of flattering that you think so though, thanks!

 

True, but intelligence has fairly little to do with what a person believes or doesn't believe. It's more about the mindset that a person has that determines how they approach both their own perspective and new ideas that challenge their perspective. This mindset need not be determined entirely by the functions a person has, either.

 

I don't think all Ti doms or aux are smart but the nature of Ti, I thought was to break things down until they are in raw form. So, then I figured, if a Ti dom broke down the Bible , asked/answered questions in their minds to get to the bottom of it all, why they wouldn't come out a nonbeliever.

My intentions aren't to debate the Bible but I feel it will become inevitable because of certain things I feel I should point out. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. )

For one thing, there are billions of interpretations of it and many different "scholars" claiming their interpretations of what God meant is true.

The second thing is this: If Christians believe that God is all knowing and is perfect, then that would mean God makes no mistakes and that he knows things are going to happen before they do. With that said, God of the Bible is an even bigger troll than his adversary. From what I was taught about the Bible, (it's been a few years) .. God appointed Lucifer to be the leader of the music in heaven and he was one of the more powerful angels in heaven. Later, we know that he started envying God's position, questioning God and wanting to be like God. He ended up rebelling and God tossed him to the Earth, apparently. <-- The issue with that is God knew all along that Lucifer was going to choose to be rebellious and deceive mankind. I would also like to know if angels were created by God because if so, that would make things even worse.

God could've chosen any other angel to hold the power over music or whoever he wanted to allow to dwell in his kingdom, yet he chose the one he knew would rebel against him. If God has chosen someone he knew would make the right choice, that's not interfering with their free will because they still get to choose. It's just God would've had full knowledge on it. That doesn't make any sense to me. It screams BS. This is why I said God in the Bible seems like a troll.

The story of Adam and Eve is also ridiculous to me because God punished them both for doing something disobedient against him though they weren't supposed to have knowledge on what disobedience was. God told them not to eat from the tree because he didn't want them to know the difference between good and evil. (In other words, he wanted to keep them ignorant so they could stay his slaves.) <-- With that said, why were they punished for something they didn't know they were doing? According to the Bible, disobedience against God, is evil. That's like spanking a child for touching a hot stove before you told him the consequences of touching it or why he shouldn't touch it. It makes no sense and it was unfair to Adam and Eve. The other thing is, the snake only told them the truth. The snake may might've had bad intentions but at least they were no longer ignorant. God was basically hiding the truth from them.

Although Satan was a fallen angel, why on Earth did God allow him in the Garden of Eden, yet, when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they were kicked out? So, although Lucifer, one of God's most powerful angels at a time, rebelled against him after knowing him and all of his glory... he still got to dwell among Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden but they were kicked out for knowing the truth in its entirety?

Now, most Christians say Jesus came to fulfill the law but it seems like fulfilling was just a fancier term for changing. God regretted a lot of things he did so he sent Jesus to clean up his mess. On top of that, it seems like preachers try to either scare people into the religion or gain their sympathies by telling of how God gave his one and only "begotten" Sun.. er.. I mean, Son.. so that anyone who believes in him shall have eternal life. The problem with all of this is, again.. it didn't have to happen this way. God made all of these choices knowing ahead of time who was going to mess up. He chose the beginning to be the way he did and so he knew he was going to have to send his one and only "begotten" Son down here to be nailed to a cross. The whole thing is just flat out sketchy to me and I honestly don't understand how any Ti dom, can pick the idea apart and come out, believing the way they once did or believing it at all. I've seen a lot of ESFJ, ISFJ, and INFP Christians. ISTPs seem to be a little more like me with all of this but there are more INTP Christians. Sure INTPs are good at marrying two contradicting things but this isn't one of those universal, paradoxical situations where everything exists and doesn't at once. There is proof in that book, that when logically broken down, makes no sense whatsoever. If the Bible contradicts itself, it's an issue because this is a God who's supposed to be all loving and knowing.

The Bible makes God look like a Narcissistic Schizophrenic.

Yet, I feel as though Christianity is trolling the World as well as Islam. This is my reasoning for wondering how on Earth do you get a Ti dominant Christian? It just seems far-fetched to me that you could analyze the Bible so deeply and still come out thinking it's legit.

It's not a matter of belief. A matter of belief would be like, believing in ghosts. There's no holy book to dispute that, so I don't debate or argue about things as such. ( I don't debate beliefs, opinions, or things that have no tangible foundation to go on.)

If you believe in Jesus Christ because you believe you've felt his Holy Spirit in you, that's fine. It's the Bible that I'm concerned about it. It's a book with words in it and that can be heavily debated and picked apart.:bored:

It seems most take me for the round about. Maybe I'm not understanding Ti correctly but I thought it was a function that caused the person to analyze/pick apart things to their core...

Also I can't think of a reason any Ti dominant wouldn't be interested in debating the Bible's contradictions or asking questions since it's an analytical function.... Ti doms, especially INTPs.. seem like they'd make great debaters with these things because Ti dom and aux are supposed to be unemotional in debates and in their analysis. I don't debate religion or politics with feeling. I'm just trying to understand how Ti can come out a believer of that book.



PS : I'm up thinking more about this and another illogical thing about the Bible/Christianity is that it claims those who don't accept Jesus as their Savior will go to hell. Take into account how unfair this is. (I'm not speaking from an emotional standpoint but logical as far as what the word fair means.)

Sending me to hell for not believing someone I've never met died for mistakes, is not logical because humans can't help what they simply don't believe in. (Unless it is physically proven or proven through a logical analysis.)

That would be like God telling me I'm going to get stabbed by 50,000 people tomorrow because I don't believe in flying reindeer. The Bible claims that God is a fair God, yet this same God punished all mankind for the sins of a couple. It just doesn't add up. Now, I'm thinking that those with strong Ti would be able to tear it apart and see the logical fallacies in that book..and it doesn't end there....

 

Not even Ti user, but I don't believe Bible. It's just bullshit (subjective). I don't have relogion, because all of them constray me as human being.

 

Many of the people with the highest recorded IQs are theists, regardless of type. One of the hardest things for me is the perceived contradictions between the old and new testaments. I have not completely reconciled that in my mind. Hopefully in time as I have the time to study theology a little more in depth I can answer some of those questions to my own satisfaction. Grammatical, human errors don't bother me. Unclear theology does. I have no doubt in my internal framework that there is a logical design to the universe that can be seen in things like Phi, the Golden Ratio. A Ti user is typically more willing than a Te user to say there could be unknown factors that influence our perception of something.

ENTPs are far more inclined to like debate. They like discussion for the sake of it. INTPs are more interested in finding the correct answer as they see it, thanks to Si. I am very open to receiving new information, but not having my internal framework questioned. I take that personally.

I see a lot of non-believers over anthropomorphize God and apply their own ethics to a timeless, superior being, which I must admit to finding humorous. God is above of our understanding and senses, so of course there are going to be multiple theories as we try to grasp his motivations. I think many perceived problems can be explained when bearing in mind the struggle of free will vs. God's plan.

 

First, if there's any chance that you're going to get offended at this post, don't answer. I don't want to offend anyone's "internal framework" but I thought that went without saying.

Secondly, even if God's understanding is not ours, (which I've already learned during my years as a Christian).. God made man's brain to think as it does. So if you find that "humurous" that some expect God to be a tad more reasonable and aware of what he created, then I find that humorous. (Actually I find it mindboggling but I detected your sass..)

The way some people make endless excuses for Biblical God is ridiculous to me. Simply saying God's thoughts aren't mine Is one of the many copouts used to get out of being reasonable about it.

If I create a toy whose mind is limited and one who will try to find reason for everything, am I sending him to hell for not believing in Santa...although I never show him Santa or his flying reindeer? No. That's unreasonable no matter the excuse. Anyone can have a high IQ and be a theist, that says nothing to me. How a Ti user can analyze the Bible and come out a hardcore Christian is mindflipping.
.and I still have yet to see a reasonable answer because the truth is there is none. I just want some to stop being too scared to admit their Holy book, indeed has holes in it.

When we speak of God's will are we talking about his permissive will or his solid will? God's permissive will answers the question as to why God lets thousands of people in other countries starve, everyday and God's solid will is that some get saved.

 

As a TiNe who was at some point a hardcore theist (and have now been atheist for many years), I believe I can answer this.

Reason 1: A cohesive theoretical architecture

I was the only person I knew who believed in God for the reasons I did. It's the same reason Blaise Pascal did. It was a philosophical conclusion, and an adherence to a logical framework where "all of the universe, my existence, and causality" could be made sense of. At the time, I pondered existential questions, in a very classical sort of way, and deduced we most likely had a designer. A lot of TiNe Christians are sophisticated creationists, from what I've seen.

If you look at religions, a lot of them are internally consistent -- or can be made to appear so. For example, "why are there so many interpretations of God, or the Bible, if there's one God?" <-- Because of man's imperfection and imperfection in copying over time.

Why did God allow an evil Lucifer into the garden of eden and actually indirectly tempted/tested Adam and Eve? Because God allows free-will. And without an option to disobey, God would not be Love, because Love is freedom, not slavery. So God had to allow Adam and Eve a chance to choose other than Him, for God's nature of Love to fully be expressed.

Why did God allow sin to happen, and Lucifer to reign, even though he knew what would transpire? Everything God does is ultimately the expression of His being. In adventism (where I was raised in), God is said to allow sin to happen in order to show the rest of the angels of heaven, and the entire universe, the glory of God.

Earth is seen as this cosmic stage; the single corrupt planet in the universe, but also the single blessed planet where the Son actually incarnated and died for the sins of these mortal creatures. So in adventism, Earth is simultaneously the most cursed and the most blessed and privileged places in the cosmos, because nowhere else has the Son died - and for mortals, and the most lowly. The drama of Earth is the "revelation" of God's nature to the whole universe, because God's true nature could not have been revealed (as it was seen in the life of Christ) without the narrative of the struggle between good and evil.

Therefore, all of it has been to God's glory. And after the second coming, the earth will be cleansed, and all those who chose Love (in whatever form or deity they prayed to, with leeway proportional to their ignorance or lack of exposure to the real God) will be saved --- and they will take their place among the angels and actually be exalted above the angels as Christ's "Bride" the church.

~~~

Christianity is very very clever in rationalizing these irregularities when you get really deep into it. Now, these loophole coverup explanations come at the sacrifice of the morality of God. For example, it's fucked up to think that all of this is for God's glory and meanwhile, the real suffering of people here on earth is allowed to happen because of some greater cosmic plan God has.

What Christians will tell you is that a person's suffering is a test of character, like what happened to Job, and not out of malice. And even God's words to Adam that said he will toil in the earth, are the first example of this decision. He could have allowed the ground to grow nice juicy fruits everywhere on earth. But, notice, He "deliberately" made it hard, and deliberately made Adam (and all his descendants) toil for his food, and to succumb to death.

This is why it's ridiculous, really, when people pray to the christian God for deliverance from daily toils and pains. In the christian view, all our suffering here in this earth isn't "the point" ---- thus it's not the point for God to be a benevolent entity that's out to alleviate our every ouchy. In fact, these ouchies are allowed by him (re: Job), to test character --- and then after death, we'll see how what we decided on, plays out for our soul.

Reason 2: Transference of Moral Obligation

The second factor, and this is more indirect.... is that TiNe (especially impressionable and naive or young ones) will have a poorly developed ethical center. And it's not like Fi. So actually types like FiNe will be more likely to retaliate against the God of the old testment (or even new testament) on principles of morality.

The christian will see the Fi-user and say they're being blasphemous for believing their morality is more righteous than that of God, but the Fi-user will continue to follow their ethical sense, which is unique and their own. They may even believe in some "higher power" but it won't be the dogmatic belief of any one doctrinal structure.

Inversely, the TiNe is far more susceptible to not object to this ethical discord, partly because they have Fe (which is more externally dependent on gathering ethical frameworks) and partly because Fe is so weak in their hierarchy.

As for why TiNe more than TiSe, that's again due to how the TiNe is an abstract creature, and thinks more theoretically about matters of reality; they're more the sort of dreamers that can become caught in a worldview which is based on a "detached" (could even be mystical or religious) ideology. If it satisfies an intuitive sense of how the world works, and it's internally consistent, the TiNe will go for it.

And if they're personally invested enough, they can wrongly use their Ti's analytical power to rationalize doctrine or scripture, toward a more convergent principle, rather than dismantle it's underlying premises.

Ti actually doesn't want upheaval or reconsideration --- it wants convergence and sensibility. Revampage; that's the job of Ne. Hence, all religious TiNe I've seen have been TiNe-Si, or rather low on Ne in general, as Ne is what would lead to their most ambiguity in perspective and questioning of premises.

My own falling out of religion

As a testament to the mechanical way religion was constituted in my mind...
I was actually shocked at how easy it was for me to leave christianity behind. It was like.... "oh.. so that's reality, not this" ....*readjusts framework* ...."okay, got it. this is my new perspective" From day to night I went from fundamentalist to atheist.

I felt a sort of personal embarrassment for having incorrect deductions. I had build this entire castle in the sky -- my religion -- that totally collapsed from day to night when a few core principles were dismantled. But the point was, it *was* contingent on those principles and it was liable to fall should my premises be wrong. I wasn't holding it out of inertia. Thus, a good debate or two, or three... can genuinely deconvert a TiNe christian, I think. Which is a lot harder for some other types who hold onto it due to a longstanding worldview (Si... even Ni) or due to some emotional intuition about His existence (Fe/Fi) that isn't properly thought through with a logical processes.

 

Argh! Too much to handle all at once ... I'm really quite flooded. I'm picking one or two things and then I'm getting out of here.

Therefore, all of it has been to God's glory. And after the second coming, the earth will be cleansed, and all those who chose Love (in whatever form or deity they prayed to, with leeway proportional to their ignorance or lack of exposure to the real God) will be saved --- and they will take their place among the angels and actually be exalted above the angels as Christ's "Bride" the church.

Actually it's all those who chose Christ. Love is too generic.

If the Bible said God was a murderer and he murdered babies, I would feel no need to debate it or try to convince others that it's contradicting. However, it claims he is just and fair, repeatedly throughout the Bible and that is just inaccurate. Punishing all of mankind for one man's deeds isn't fair and I don't mean fair as in a crybaby kind of fair. I mean it literally is measurably distasteful.

Do you mean Adam? Well God punished one man (Christ) for the sin of the many, so it all balances out.

 

@darkhippie

Reading your most recent reply, I've now become confused about why you started this thread.

At first I thought you were genuinely curious, or perhaps wanted a debate...

You seem to be trying to apply your own understanding to individual Ti-dominant's understanding, of a perspective that you don't particularly agree with to start with.

Ti is in 8th place for INFPs, so I'm wondering at your attempt to reconcile your own perspective to a function that may be very hard to access.

Why not ask Te users that believe the Bible, why they do? That should flow easier for you.

(I don't intend for this to sound insulting, for myself I would not attempt to get a Si dom to explain their process of washing a car for me to follow... that would not be applicable for me.)


Is it meant to be a debate?
A genuine question?
Derisiveness?

 

When I created this thread, I wanted to understand how a Ti-user could come to the conclusion that the Bible is legit based on logical consistencies. This is the very foundation I thought Ti stood on. The reason I didn't ask Te users the same questions is because Te looks outward for verification. They might look at a natural cause that parted the Red Sea and tell me that is indicative of the Bible being legit. Ti users use their inner reasoning skills and logic and don't necessarily need outside verification. With that said, by the time I read the last reply to me, prior to my last reply, I figured I was done with this conversation. By the time I was replying in my last post, I came back to the conclusion that there is no reason for a Ti user to believe in the crap except for if they're deceiving themselves by making something seem like it's logically consistent when it is not. (Which, to me would be the bottom line.)

At first, I truly did want to be educated. Now, I just feel like I'm right. However, I was going to answer the man before you because I really liked the way he went about explaining things. My issues with God in the Bible have nothing to do with him murdering babies or being against Gays.. or anything ethical. It's simply because there are too many contradictions and too many excuses made for these contradictions.

If the Bible said God was a murderer and he murdered babies, I would feel no need to debate it or try to convince others that it's contradicting. However, it claims he is just and fair, repeatedly throughout the Bible and that is just inaccurate. Punishing all of mankind for one man's deeds isn't fair and I don't mean fair as in a crybaby kind of fair. I mean it literally is measurably distasteful.


I thought Ti-users would be able to see that or at least show me why they believe. In the end, I guess they did. The fact of the matter is, they rationalize their religion as a means to stick to it and cope with it. I, however used to be a Christian but after picking it apart, I refuse to hold onto something that clearly is not adding up. I also refuse to make excuses for it. I am not a Theist. I don't believe in God as far as one giant dude sitting in heaven. (This, however is based on beliefs.. not a book written by men and revised a thousand times.) I believe in something closer to the Big Bang theory or Pantheism. With this said, I am not here to attack anyone's religion. I don't do stuff like that but I do have a knack for noticing inconsistencies within religions that are based on books because there's something to pick apart and go on. It just made me wonder why do Ti users still believe that stuff (in the Bible).. I guess people have to come to their senses at their own speed. If I go any further, I will only become more condescending, which I don't want to be.

Ps - As far as being an INFP goes.. That's a whole different topic. I'm not even sure that I follow the exact stack of INFP. The more I discover about MBTI stacking, the less I'm sure about it but I do believe in the functions.

 

Sorry if I came off as disrespectful or rude, it wasn't my intention at all. I can be a little condescending at times without realizing it when I'm passionate about something and think I'm right. That's the main reason I try to avoid political conversations.

Do I find it humorous that some expect God to be a tad more reasonable and aware of what he created? No, I find it humorous that humans think they can know if God is being reasonable. I wonder if you aren't confusing Ti and Te somewhat. I find many Te users, especially xNTJs, are more in awe of man and his abilities than I am. For how many millennia did many not know about bio sonar or ultraviolet waves? I'm prepared to admit we're just like children in the universe and have so much to learn. Ti and Ne or Ni consider the possibilities.

There was a man who sat each day looking out through a narrow vertical opening where a single board had been removed from a wooden fence. Each day a wild ass of the desert passed outside the fence and across the narrow opening - first the nose, then the head, the forelegs, the long brown back, the hind-legs, and lastly the tail. One day the man leaped to his feet with a light of discovery in his eyes and he shouted for all who could hear him: "It is obvious! The nose causes the tail!" - Heretics of Dune

As to why Christianity and the Bible specifically? I suppose I might be a different religion if raised in a country that didn't have a strong Catholic majority. I'm from Poland. And as you stated "if you believe in Jesus Christ because you believe you've felt his Holy Spirit in you, that's fine. It's the Bible that I'm concerned about." I would say being Catholic kind of nullifies that concern. Unlike Protestants who are more sola scriptura, Muslims also with the Quran and hadith, Catholics believe our faith to be a living one. We don't believe our religion stopped 2,000 years ago but includes modern figures like Padre Pio and that God continues to speak to us.

I'd have to write a book to try to explain all the perceived inconsistencies and I doubt I'm qualified honestly, only being a college student. Just to answer one, most Christian denominations don't teach that God is sending you to hell, but that without the grace of Christ you will inevitably go there through your own shortcomings. That God actively wants you to go to Heaven, but will not contravene your free will. You're not going to hell for your lack of belief, rather you're being saved from it by believing. There are some Christian authors like Origen of Alexandria who believed eventually every spirit would go to Heaven.

I'm probably coming from a place of ignorance here myself, because I don't know how to respond to an Fi dom saying something is "measurably distasteful" when to me distaste is by nature subjective. You said it has nothing to do with ethics, but then you give ethical reasons. I don't think Ti can validate Fi anymore than Fi can validate Ti. Nevertheless, good luck in your spiritual journey.

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "measurably" distasteful. I think a lot of people on this site somehow misunderstand the things I mean because perhaps I don't word things right. I thought I did. When I said measurably distasteful, I was referring to a scale, not my personal tastes. The Bible is measurably distasteful and God is unfair meaning the balance beam is unbalanced. That's not ethics it's just facts via analytics. If a mother punishes all of her kids for something one kid did, that isn't fair by definition of what fair means. God and the Bible aren't reasonable, so it is measurably distasteful. The facts and being analytical have nothing to do with my ethics. I wouldn't care if someone said God is evil, killed babies, or etc.. because although I don't think people should kill babies, God killing babies is not why I'd say the Bible is a bunch of trash. If the Bible said God was contradicting, I wouldn't have any reason to believe the Bible was inconsistent.

Some of you are trying to make me think I don't have a good hold on Ti but I actually think Ti is in my 4 letter stack and so does a family member very close to me. I did some research on it and I believe I have a great understanding of Ti which is the reason I didn't understand how a Ti dominant could be so analytical and come out believing the inconsistencies. Inconsistency has nothing to do with ethics, it's analytics. I'm a highly analytical person. Ethics deals with morals and right and wrong, in a subjective sense. I deal with right and wrong based on analytics. If one scripture says God is just and fair, by definition, that scripture is clearly/factually wrong and this can be verified by analyzing the scriptures. If it is factual that you cannot help but to NOT believe in Santa and flying reindeer, then it is unreasonable to send you to hell for it. It has nothing to do with mercy it's more like you can't punish someone for lack of knowledge and especially where proof lacks. Belief in something is one thing but having a book such as the Bible tell you one thing, then tell ya another is inconsistent, which according to this passage, I found from another user on here, in which I agree with, is something I expect a Ti user to get. Some of you are trying to press ethical reasoning onto me when indeed I was able to delete Christianity out of my life due to the fact it made no sense. I'm a bisexual and I feel like I can't help that but that's not even a reason I left Christianity. You'd think if I was using ethics, I'd leave due to being hurt by the fact that I couldn't be my "authentic" self or that God was hateful or evil but that's not the reason. First of all, I don't believe in good or evil, especially on a universal scale. That's false logic as well, if you analyze well enough. However, if evil makes the most sense to me, I might engage in it. So, it's not a matter of ethics, morals, or etc.. It's more like I imagine a balance beam and God's is imbalanced. I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from better.

Here's a simple explanation, you may find it helpful. It was posted on enfpforum.

Te - How is Thinking expressed when it is turned outward? Extraverted Thinking's focus is order. It is organizing and ordering the outside world; organizing both people and things to achieve a purpose. It is using logic and reasoning in dialogue with others. It is directing action, calling plays, and making decisions. It is purposeful sorting out; discriminating among alternatives. Extraverted Thinking asks questions, collects information in an orderly way, and solves problems in a systematic manner. Extraverted Thinking (Te) is dominant in ESTJ & ENTJ and supportive in ISTJ & INTJ personality types.

Ti - How is Thinking experienced when it is turned inward? The Introverted Thinking mind presumes logical order rules the Universe; illogic is dismissed as just so much mental clutter that needs to be swept out of the mind. Beliefs, understandings, and information is taken in and logically organized in clusters of thought, with principles at the foundation. It strives to fit new pieces of information into clusters of thought where it most logically fits. It sorts out and discriminates that which makes logical sense from that which does not. Like a detective, the Introverted Thinking mind is drawn to mysteries - seeking clues and root causes - to solve a problem or a riddle. Introverted Thinking (Ti) is dominant in ISTP & INTP and supportive in ESTP and ENTP personality types.

Judging by what this person wrote, in which I agree with, this is exactly how I interpreted Ti. I feel this is exactly what I did with the Bible. I was once a Christian and during my times living in a Christian household, I adopted those values, even though I noticed things didn't make any sense because it was my surroundings. I never felt that Gay was a sin even while living with them but I adopted that way of thinking simply because that's what my religion was saying and my church and my grandparents. However, I can't defy logic and after I moved, I started really asking questions and coming to conclusions that the Bible was too inconsistent to believe in. The following passage of this person's definition of Ti is exactly what I feel I am doing with this thread

"It sorts out and discriminates that which makes logical sense from that which does not.Like a detective, the Introverted Thinking mind is drawn to mysteries - seeking clues and root causes - to solve a problem or a riddle."

I've been a believer and where many of you are right now but the thing with me is I believe I've solved the riddle and that it is just too inconsistent to be any good. Accusing me of thinking I know better than "God" is still using a subjective argument on your end. What you believe to be God is not what I believe to be God... Isn't that the problem in the first place? You cannot use a statement such as "You think you know better than God" on a person who doesn't even believe your God to be real. I think it would be best to leave that out. When I was a Christian and because I'm so analytical, I had the ability to step outside of my religious programming and even have nerve to analyze what the Bible tells us God is and what the Bible says in general. I am a seeker of truth in all forms, whether it be in people, places or things.. and I won't stop acknowledging it, even if it is at my own expense. I don't have a threshold on the truth. I think that would be more like Fi. Fi wouldn't be able to accept that being Gay is a sin because they would probably reject it due to how they feel on the inside. If I came to the conclusion that the Bible was consistent and made logical sense and it said Gay was a sin, I would go back to trying not to be Gay as I was when I was a Christian, regardless of if I think it's morally wrong to discriminate or not. However, the bottom line is, the Bible is crap to me because it's irrational and that's the only reason. It has nothing to do with God's evilness or blah blah blah.. It's simply that it's irrational.

With that said, I can say, I now understand why/how a Ti dominant could believe that the Bible is real. From my understanding, Ti analyzing things down to their core, as I thought. (Which I do to an extreme extent. However, I don't think I'm Ti dom...but I do believe it is in my stack - no doubt.) - INTPs, specifically, seem to analyze, then dismantle. So, if a Ti dominant analyzed the Bible and noticed the inconsistencies, they would then go to Ne and see ways to marry them through the Ne. I noticed that ISTPs tend to lean more towards disbelief in the Bible , which would make more sense as well considering, each Aux function. With that said, I do still think the Bible is inconsistent and unfair as far as analytics go. (Que my balance beam reference.) However, Ti users may justify the irrationality via an irrational function. So, in a nutshell, I think you're all being irrational but I mean, do you. I'm done with this thread because it's drained me and people aren't taking what I say correctly which is like beating a dead horse. (which I hate to do.) ..

I don't dismiss/ignore what's irrational for the sake of my emotions nor for the sake of a belief. When I started this thread, I was open to seeing how it could happen and I guess I do now. I just came to the conclusion that you're being irrational for the sake of a book. I've been trying to be a bit tactful but there's no other way to say it.

 

Initially it's because I was raised in a healthy Christian home by two Ti users. I asked to be saved at 8 years old because I was already bored of mundane things and wanted to see miracles (closest thing to magic that I could believe in). For the following years, I was determined to discover the truth and that if the Bible were real, then the following passage would help:

What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

If that were true, then I could just pray and ask to know for sure, so I did. If it wasn't true then neither was the Bible and it didn't matter. I then sought the answers to every uncertainty I encountered and I always found a satisfactory answer. And later I guess I've just known.... But according to the theology, you can't just "reason it out", hence why Ti is irrelevant to belief. It makes sense from my perspective like nothing else does, but I only started seeking the truth after I had already become a Christian in hopes of being amazed. There's more, but basically, if you understood it, you'd be a Christian. And maybe you will be, idk, but there's too much for a random post online, and my Ti would never let me finish my post if I tried, so better not to unleash it.

 

But according to the theology, you can't just "reason it out", hence why Ti is irrelevant to belief.

I believe Ti is far more accepting of unknown variables than Te. Do Ti doms want to reason it out? Absolutely, look at Thomas Aquinas. INTPs are more likely to be agnostics and INTJs atheists. I'm probably off some on this but I almost want to say that a Ti dom/aux wants to reason it out while a Te dom/aux needs to reason it out. How religious belief works for Te doms/auxs would be an interesting discussion too.

I want to quote Jung here to back my thoughts on this. "Its (introverted thinking's) aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfill, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity."

 

If the Bible said God was a murderer and he murdered babies, I would feel no need to debate it or try to convince others that it's contradicting. However, it claims he is just and fair, repeatedly throughout the Bible and that is just inaccurate. Punishing all of mankind for one man's deeds isn't fair and I don't mean fair as in a crybaby kind of fair. I mean it literally is measurably distasteful.

Your problem is that you're applying your own definitions of right and wrong to God - probably a typical struggle for FPs, since you have an internal moral compass. But like is typical of intelligent creatures, you are pridefully assuming you know best. He certainly made humans capable of disagreeing with him, so you're welcome to do so, but that doesn't necessarily mean your opinion is accurate.

 

Ti is subjective logic, so I can see how some would dismiss, or justify, the discrepancies and logical inconsistencies in the Bible.

But, I'm a Ti user and am an atheist.

 

I remembered something from Victor Gulenko's translated notes that might back up your observations on Ti, @darkhippie. He believes Ti works differently in INTPs and ISTPs. He calls them Ti+ and Ti-. Here is a photograph of the notes.

 

I was raised as a Christian. As a child, I more or less believed the Bible as-is. As I grew older, I began to doubt some of those things. My understanding changed from the literal to the abstract. That's more or less where I am today. I see the Bible as more of a historical document/vision into the past/guidebook/understanding of ancient culture and social/religious societal structure than a literal truth. But that's more or less how I view any ancient work. Human knowledge is collective. We continually build on what we know (and don't know).

It's also interesting to understand the politics involved with the Bible. What books were included and why? What books were excluded...and are they important to our understanding? Do they help us paint a more complete picture, or do they just convolute things?

For me personally, I'm actually less worried about the details and contradictions and more interested in the concept/idea. Recently reading a book called The Righteous Mind (by Jonathan Haidt), I have a little different perspective on religion in general, and why it exists. Does this mean I don't believe in God or the Bible? Not exactly. But my views are based a little less on provable truths and more on the human framework of religion and society in general. I believe in something greater than me.

 

OP, I'm not one of the people to whom you've addressed this question, but I have over time taken notice of Christians' explanations of their beliefs and the patterns therein, patterns which some of this thread's respondents have confirmed.

It doesn't seem like you are putting two and two together from what they are saying, so I'm going to briefly break down the basic process as I understand it (with no intention to talk down to you; I'm just frustrated with the super long posts and apparent lack of closure in this thread):

The mindset seems to be based on two core beliefs:

1. The belief that god is ALWAYS right. God defines "right," "fair," "ethical," "moral," and every other related concept. The standard of "rightness," therefore, is whatever god does and wants. God can do no wrong. Ever. This extends to god's word: somewhere beyond the poor translations, the fallible teachers, etc., there is some manifestation of god's word that is totally "right" and perfectly sensible.

The result is that believers generally don't have to deal with reconciling god's actions with external moral standards (like you've been doing in this thread). There's no reason to question what's always right.

2. The belief that humans are not only severely lacking in knowledge about god's wants and plans, but, in some cases, unable to know until far in the future or incapable of ever fully understanding.

The implication of this belief is that any doubts about the meaning or sensibleness of "god's word" can be dismissed as human fallibility. Ti or not, the belief that one can't ever fully understand something can eliminate some of the motivation to question it at all.


To sum it up, a specific type of faith (encapsulated in these two core beliefs and the basic belief that god exists) precedes and motivates biblical interpretation, and that faith therefore determines biblical interpretation. This contrasts with, for example, the external moral standards (like fairness) that go into your biblical interpretation (as you've discussed in this thread): a different set of fundamental premises is at play.

But it transcends different premises: in a philosophy in which "right" can mean literally anything and adherents are supposedly constitutionally unequipped to fundamentally doubt or fully understand the philosophy, almost any idea can fly. And in a conceptual system in which almost any idea can fly, inconsistencies and paradoxes effectively cannot exist.

I complained about long posts and now mine has become longer than intended...

 

The mindset

Not that there aren't other mindsets, this is just the mindset I've seen explained again and again.

 

No one is immune to cognitive bias and the mental gymnastics that go along with tricking oneself. Even if you look outside of religion, you will find plenty of Tis who are expert at forcing puzzle pieces together when they weren't meant to be. Or taking pieces from various puzzles and arranging them as if they belonged to the same set in the first place.

Not that bible-believers are necessarily doing that, but some are, and go to great lengths to do so. As someone mentioned, look at Thomas Aquinas. He was genius, and dedicated his life to somehow harmonizing the tales of Catholicism be conscionably consistent with his beliefs (some argue his beliefs came as a result of his logic - I disagree). And he used Ti to do it. There is plenty wrong with Summa Theologica when you really break it down but that's the case with basically every philosopher, or even scientist, as we advance further. Not many people could have come up with his kind of work in the first place, especially during the 13th century.

Further, there are different ways of interpreting the bible. Some are perfectly happy accepting that some of it was subject to error either through translation or just initial human folly.

Someone else mentioned The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It's a great book and I recommend it to anyone trying to grasp why and how people end up believing the things they do. It's a good starting point anyway.

 

Not a bad summarization at all, @bentHnau. It seems like a well thought out INTJ perspective to me with Te and tertiary Fi. Such as "the belief that one can't ever fully understand something can eliminate some of the motivation to question it at all." That's true, but you also can't prove that one can fully understand. And history is full of examples of people who believed something to be fact and were proven wrong.

I would add that to me what you call "external moral standards" seems Fi derived or maybe Te derived at best. Romans 9 does seem to support the unfairness argument, but who said life is supposed to be fair and that being fair is more important than being just? Because those two are sometimes at odds. And if we can assume that God knows what we do not, again we run into the problem of being ignorant of his motivations.

I'm often more interested in the whys and what we don't know than what we do know.

 

I've never understood how Ti can have its own set of logic or its own understanding of logic. I would think logic transcends individual understandings of it? Isn't it universal?

 

God was basically created by Ti. By logic and reason. From people like Godel and St Augustine. Whitehead. Look up process theology. This passage from City of God is Ti:

The peace of the body… is a tempering of the component parts in duly ordered proportion; the peace of the irrational soul is a duly ordered repose of the appetites; the peace of the rational soul is the duly ordered agreement of cognition and action. The peace of the body and soul is the duly ordered life and health of a living creature; peace between mortal man and God is an ordered obedience, in faith, in subjection to an everlasting law; peace between men is an ordered agreement of mind with mind; the peace of a home is the ordered agreement among those who live together about giving and obeying orders; the peace of the Heavenly City is a perfectly ordered and perfectly harmonious fellowship in the enjoyment of God, and a mutual fellowship in God; the peace of the whole universe is the tranquility of order and order is the arrangement of things equal and unequal in a pattern which assigns to each its proper position (Bk XIX, 13).9

and:

"In this way God is completed by the individual, fluent satisfactions of finite fact, and the temporal occasions are completed by their everlasting union with their transformed selves, purged into conformation with the eternal order which is the final absolute 'wisdom.' The final summary can only be expressed in terms of a group of antitheses, whose apparent self-contradictions depend on neglect of the diverse categories of existence. In each antithesis there is a shift of meaning which converts the opposition into a contrast.
"It is as true to say that God is permanent and the World fluent, as that the World is permanent and God is fluent.
"It is as true to say that God is one and the World many, as that the World is one and God many.
"It is as true to say that, in comparison with the World, God is actual eminently, as that, in comparison with God, the World is actual eminently.
"It is as true to say that the World is immanent in God, as that God is immanent in the World.
"It is as true to say that God transcends the World, as that the World transcends God.
"It is as true to say that God creates the World, as that the World creates God ...
"What is done in the world is transformed into a reality in heaven, and the reality in heaven passes back into the world ... In this sense, God is the great companion – the fellow-sufferer who understands."[SUP][118][/SUP]​

 

Don't mind me. Just saw 'bible' and came to see if anyone needed to be stitched up and possibly thought I might get to see a car crash.

Sincerely,

Your Neighborhood INTJ