What is extraverted thinking (Te)? How is it different from introverted thinking?
How do you use it? Can you explain it to a Perciever ?
How do you use it? Can you explain it to a Perciever ?
Extraverted Thinking (Te)
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Welcome to being complicated.
Te, or Extroverted Thinking, is primarily associated with the TJ types, although every type uses it now and again, even if it's not natural for them. Te is used dominantly by ENTJs and ESTJs, used supportively by INTJs and ISTJs, in the tertiary position by ENFPs and ESFPs, and used in the inferior position by INFPs and ISFPs. What Te does is seek organization and efficiency in the outer world. Unlike Ti, which is used by TP types, Te does not seek clarity if it gets in the way of results. Even us IxTJ types, who use Te secondary, focus very much on results, and may become irritated if results are not made by our own standards. We're usually pleased if we believe progress is being made, though.
Te, or Extroverted Thinking, is primarily associated with the TJ types, although every type uses it now and again, even if it's not natural for them. Te is used dominantly by ENTJs and ESTJs, used supportively by INTJs and ISTJs, in the tertiary position by ENFPs and ESFPs, and used in the inferior position by INFPs and ISFPs. What Te does is seek organization and efficiency in the outer world. Unlike Ti, which is used by TP types, Te does not seek clarity if it gets in the way of results. Even us IxTJ types, who use Te secondary, focus very much on results, and may become irritated if results are not made by our own standards. We're usually pleased if we believe progress is being made, though.
Could you expound slightly on this point?
Apologies if this comes into conflict with anything I have said before - it's been a while since that post was written.
Compared to Ti, which is focused on specifications in the internal world, Te is focused on efficiency in the outer world, and those using it may 'gloss over' details or ignore fine points in order to achieve a result. Ti appears to find value in defining things; for Te, the value is in achieving things and 'getting things done'. This is not always the case, but Te is a primarily results-based function.
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Te is seeking external objectivity, pretty much. You would like decisions that are made to be externally valid and objective; dominant Te users are likely to value efficiency because you're using your Thinking decision making function and applying it to your surroundings. For instance, I believe that people who are health-conscious use their Te when they shop. Do you stand and look there at whether this hummus or that hummus have less calories? That's using Te. You're using the information around you to come to an objective, logical based decision.
Te also likes measurable progress. Dominant Te users like to know what's going on around them to affect their decisions. Looking at what the time is, a lot, is I believe Te-related.
In social situations Te displays the qualities of leadership and strength because they're able to make decisions about external things in a manner that doesn't pander them to subjectivity. A Te looks like a leader because they can say "Right, this is what we're going to do because it's the best way of doing it." Fe, in contrast, is more likely to look for an amicable decision because they want to take into account the feelings of people around them, whereas Te only looks at the facts around them.
Te is also your ability to organise. To select and quantify things around you in a logical manner, whereas Fe would do things, as far as I can see, on a whim, or based on less logical processes. Te puts the red pens and the green pens seperate because that's the logical manner in which to organise something. It's about looking for the best decision based on objective reason as opposed to the decision that is subjective to what's around you. Essentially, I think, Te and Fe are contrasting decision making functions because Te is concern with objectivity and Fe with subjectivity. It's also why Te dominant; ENTJ and ESTJ, can be seen as "bosses" or "dominant" because they want things to work in a way that might clash strongly with other people, because they see it as objectively good (I think it's also Fi related; as far as I can see, Fi can often work in conjunction with Te.)
Te also likes measurable progress. Dominant Te users like to know what's going on around them to affect their decisions. Looking at what the time is, a lot, is I believe Te-related.
In social situations Te displays the qualities of leadership and strength because they're able to make decisions about external things in a manner that doesn't pander them to subjectivity. A Te looks like a leader because they can say "Right, this is what we're going to do because it's the best way of doing it." Fe, in contrast, is more likely to look for an amicable decision because they want to take into account the feelings of people around them, whereas Te only looks at the facts around them.
Te is also your ability to organise. To select and quantify things around you in a logical manner, whereas Fe would do things, as far as I can see, on a whim, or based on less logical processes. Te puts the red pens and the green pens seperate because that's the logical manner in which to organise something. It's about looking for the best decision based on objective reason as opposed to the decision that is subjective to what's around you. Essentially, I think, Te and Fe are contrasting decision making functions because Te is concern with objectivity and Fe with subjectivity. It's also why Te dominant; ENTJ and ESTJ, can be seen as "bosses" or "dominant" because they want things to work in a way that might clash strongly with other people, because they see it as objectively good (I think it's also Fi related; as far as I can see, Fi can often work in conjunction with Te.)
I have been reading a book, Personality Type an Owner's Manual, that gives detailed descriptions of the functions. (I think some of their theory is wrong but it's still a good book.) The difference between the two is that Te is "left-brained," linear and objective while Ti is "right-brained," non-linear and situational. For example, you use Te to understand the rules of a baseball game and you use Ti to make decisions during the course of the game.
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I was about to say -- Te is linear. As a very heavy Te user, I have been waiting for a Te discussion. Basically this linearship, as far as I tell, means that you go from one decision to the next. It's like: right, well THIS is the best path to take, THIS is how it's going to be taken, THESE are the results we'll get, etc, which is why Te users can give very good summaries; it's why they excel in the fields they do - management, law, military, self-employment.
"As a dominant function, Te typically leads one to pursue and collect reliable ways of making decisions to get predictable results. The repeatability of a process becomes one of the main criteria for finding it valuable." - Lenore. If Te sees that something works, Te will be prone to using it next time. If it works for me to brew coffee in a specific way, then I will know that this is one good way of coffee. The difference between TeSi and TeNi is that TeSi is more likely to store this data and bring it back up, which makes TeSi look very traditionalist; but actually, it's the Te, not the Si, which makes the ESTJ feel like a traditionalist, because they're using their Te to process the data they've gathered. Added to the fact that Te makes objective decisions and likes processes that are demonstrably good and repeatable, they bring up this past data and then use their Te to make the decision based from it.
TeNi is more likely to make decisions based off ideas that come to their head. They're more likely to think -- hold on, I can add the milk first (or whatever) and experiment, looking for the best scenario. The difference, I believe, is that Te mixed with Si gets the data for its decisions based on what exists in the past and Te mixed with Ni gets the data for its decisions based on what could feasibly be true in the future.
The similarity is that they're objective. TeSi will not just do things because Si says so; their Te mandates that these methods have to fit certain, personal criteria. Most importantly, it's about results. It has to work. Te will never keep doing something that doesn't work, regardless of whether it's mixed with Si or Ni auxiliary.
"As a dominant function, Te typically leads one to pursue and collect reliable ways of making decisions to get predictable results. The repeatability of a process becomes one of the main criteria for finding it valuable." - Lenore. If Te sees that something works, Te will be prone to using it next time. If it works for me to brew coffee in a specific way, then I will know that this is one good way of coffee. The difference between TeSi and TeNi is that TeSi is more likely to store this data and bring it back up, which makes TeSi look very traditionalist; but actually, it's the Te, not the Si, which makes the ESTJ feel like a traditionalist, because they're using their Te to process the data they've gathered. Added to the fact that Te makes objective decisions and likes processes that are demonstrably good and repeatable, they bring up this past data and then use their Te to make the decision based from it.
TeNi is more likely to make decisions based off ideas that come to their head. They're more likely to think -- hold on, I can add the milk first (or whatever) and experiment, looking for the best scenario. The difference, I believe, is that Te mixed with Si gets the data for its decisions based on what exists in the past and Te mixed with Ni gets the data for its decisions based on what could feasibly be true in the future.
The similarity is that they're objective. TeSi will not just do things because Si says so; their Te mandates that these methods have to fit certain, personal criteria. Most importantly, it's about results. It has to work. Te will never keep doing something that doesn't work, regardless of whether it's mixed with Si or Ni auxiliary.
"Extraverted Thinkingl" has some more details if you want a link explaining some key points. A key point here is using the focus of thought on external sources, making the outside world have order and structure. At least that is how I use it.
The Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki also has some details explaining it a different way.
The Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki also has some details explaining it a different way.
I disagree with a couple of your points, Diphenhydramine. Fe is less whimsical than you might think. While feeling functions are by definition subjective, Fe is less subjective than Fi because it is concerned with social rules and consensus more than one's own feelings. Similarly Te is more objective than Ti, since a Ti problem typically involves the thinker directly as in the example with the baseball game that I gave above.
Another point I disagree with is where you said that it is the Te that makes an ESTJ seem like a traditionalist. ESFJ would be similarly traditionalist, but more concerned with human problems than tactical problems.
Another point I disagree with is where you said that it is the Te that makes an ESTJ seem like a traditionalist. ESFJ would be similarly traditionalist, but more concerned with human problems than tactical problems.
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To be honest, I'm not particularly well acquainted with Fe. But I don't think that Fe is less subjective than Fi at all. If you mix Te and Fi you will find someone making decisions based on objective reason and objective feeling, the "black and white" effect. Fe is more subjective because it's all about external feeling which is totally subjective. When you're examing social rules and consensus that is totally subjective. A group of old conservatives who go to church every sunday will not find it acceptable to smoking cannabis, whereas a group of teenagers who skip school to go smoke probably will.
I don't know anything about ESFJ so I decline to make a large comment about it. What I will say is that it is the Te that makes it traditionalist (mixed with Si); it isn't a dichotomy between traditionalism in human problems or tactical problems but traditionalism full stop (I believe.)
How do you think that Fi is "objective feeling?" :S
The reason I said I think Fe is less subjective is because it is more concerned with social protocol that exists independently of the one doing the judging. If the values of your group determine your choice whether to smoke marijuana, that could be with the influence of Fe, though I think that would be more of an Si thing. I don't know. Every type would use their own way of judgement to decide whether it is acceptable to smoke marijuana. Two thinkers can come to different conclusions even with the same mode of thinking and same data, even while both are trying to be objective.
By definition, introverted functions are subjective and extraverted functions are objective. Using dominant Te does not make inferior Fi objective. In the case of TeFi, Fi would be the subjective values Te makes decision on. I think the common expression of this in real life is the sense of duty that TJ types tend to have. They must step up and lead because they can see what it logical and effective, they can help others, they can fix what is wrong. Generally speaking, obviously.
Fe is objective about the subjective. Fe uses external standards to base decision, but not in the logical manner Te uses but in societal standards. Fe looks to how people work together and what is best for people. The subjectivity in FJ types comes from their internal perceiving function and partially from Ti.
Fe is objective about the subjective. Fe uses external standards to base decision, but not in the logical manner Te uses but in societal standards. Fe looks to how people work together and what is best for people. The subjectivity in FJ types comes from their internal perceiving function and partially from Ti.
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Possibly I misunderstand Fe, but I just don't see how looking at external feeling could ever be objective. Objectivity is about achieving impartiality; it's possible to come to an objective decision when looking within yourself, but it isn't at all when looking outside because you're being necessarily affected by a bunch of other things, so I don't frankly possibly see how that could work (although I concede that my initial analysis may have been wrong.)
It only seems illogical to you because you are a Te-bearer. Your perception of it being illogical is effectively subjective.
Feelings are simply a different logic system, one where people are given much greater value. As a Fe-bearer I can see people equipped with Te come in and do some things that I think are illogical. This is because what they are doing comes in conflict with what my Fe tells me is right. For example in the workplace somebody could be debating some point that greatly upsets the social harmony of the workplace and makes people feel devalued and uninspired to do their work. To me what this Te bearer is doing seems counterproductive and irrational. I'm sure though that for him it seems like he is doing the right thing seeking order and efficiency in the outside world. But Te is not always right - if it were natural selection would have long pruned the population in favor of Te users.
Amicable decisions though win people over and this is how Fe bearers become leaders. If decisions are always based on what Te says is right you can end up pissing off other people without realizing it and thus lose their support. Correct use of Fe gives you an edge with workplace politics.
If everyone was a Te user, who would they have to boss around? It's better to look at it as sharing a gene pool, like a family would. They have similar genes and so even if one of them is gay, that gay person would be helping to pass down his own genes by working and contributing resources to his family. And so the differnet personality types need to work together which means there is a need for dominant TeNi users to make up a smaller chunk of the population. (On the other hand, ESTJ is the largest percent of male types, and one of the largest for females.)
That doesn't have anything to do with Fi by itself. And you really just need to crack open a dictionary to solve this debate. Subjective means based on personal feelings or opinion etc.
As for Fe being objective or not, objective means you are not basing your decisions on personal, feelings, opinions or reasons. So if you are basing your judgements on external reasons or observable phenomena, then you're being objective, regardless of the source of information.
Fe is not an emotional response, more like an understanding of other people's emotions. I think you're confusing Fe with something like "how I feel about their situation" when Fe would be written "how other people feel about the situation." But generally, someone that uses Fe a lot will develop Fi, but not always, because they will start to feel for them when they understand what other people are feeling. Sometimes people with Fe will not use their knowledge in a nice way, especially if they have wounded Fi or just a lack thereof.
You can never reach true impartiality. Speaking in terms of the theory, your subjective perception and feeling judgments will always be there.
I look at it like this. There are objects and subjects, or the observable and the observers. To be objective, the focus must be towards the object. In the case of Fe, the object is group interactions and other subjects. The subjectivity comes from Pi. It is like Ti where logic is subjective but based on the object. As in, even if Ti has come to an objective truth, the logic system used to get to that point was not based on external but internal criteria of logic. The objective information comes from Pe.
I look at it like this. There are objects and subjects, or the observable and the observers. To be objective, the focus must be towards the object. In the case of Fe, the object is group interactions and other subjects. The subjectivity comes from Pi. It is like Ti where logic is subjective but based on the object. As in, even if Ti has come to an objective truth, the logic system used to get to that point was not based on external but internal criteria of logic. The objective information comes from Pe.
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"way of reasoning, whether correct or incorrect:" is a good description of logic. Logic and objectivity and reason is about impartiality. If you approach things in an impartial way, looking at the actual evidence rather than just what other people think about things, you are being logical. It's not that I think it's illogical because I'm Te dominant, it's that Fe doesn't concern itself with logic, even by your description. It doesn't matter whether the actions of Te come into what you think is wrong or right -- that has nothing to do with logic.
Te isn't always right. I don't think anyone's claimed that. It's not about actually being correct or incorrect, it's about the way you go about challenging what you think is incorrect or correct. In a word, Te uses logic and Fe uses empathy.
I'm not disputing that Fe can show leadership. Hitler was allegedly an INFJ, people have said that Tony Blair and Ronald Reagan and President Obama were/are ENFJs; Fe in either dominant or auxiliary can surely create a leadership affect, too, but obviously in different ways. People like being told what they want to hear; but quite often, too, people will not challenge someone who is direct about telling them the truth. I'm not really interested in politics; I'll say what I say, and if it's right, people should follow me, if it's wrong, they shouldn't. That's objectivity and logic; not fiddling around with making people feel comfortable when what is happening is wrong. Admittedly, I don't actually work right now, but none of my occupation plans involve things where I would have to pander to other people's feelings when it went against my logic.
Ok, I see how this works now (I think.) But since you bring in a dictionary definition into it;
"judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices" - objectivity. So how is Fe objective when it is by definition taking into account emotions or personal prejudices, even if they're other peoples? Look, if someone comes to you and says something in an illogical manner, if you're being diplomatic or empathetic about it, you aren't being objective, are you? Your decision is being influenced by emotion or personal prejudice. I have always see T and F as being opposed by objectivity v. emotion. Is that not correct?
That's a good description which clears up a lot of things for me (maybe because it's so linear :wink
, however: it doesn't make Fe objective by definition. Objectivity by definition is anti-emotion, so either Fe has to be non-emotional or Fe isn't objective. I'm sort of confused as to how people can make the case that something is objective despite the basis of it being at odds with the definition of objectivity.I don't know why I'm debating this. Apparently what I observe is at odds with the official MBTI theory. It just seems totally wrong to me to say a cognitive function based on feeling and emotion, whether its your own or other peoples, could ever be objective, i.e. detached from emotion by definition. Does MBTI slightly redefine objectivity/subjectivity for the purpose of its theory (like it seemingly does for introvert/extrovert -- perceiving/judging) or...?
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