The alluring trap of INFP's..

azdahak · Apr 27, 2013

ScarlettHayden said:
It probably dies out because I get bored of constantly having a one-sided conversation. Hmm interesting you say that. I guess it must be hard being an INFP?

You're trying to get blood out of a stone. Many Is simply aren't practiced conversationalists. Many of them talk slowly and think while they're talking. It can be so slow, like with an ISTJ, that I've usually figured out what they're going to say before they do, because of course, I think much faster than they talk. I "loop" them and it drives them nuts. Ne is responsive and Ti craves data to analyse..so we get impatient waiting for them to make responses.....it just makes us talk even -more-. They write great e-mail though

I've learned to be patient however and to appreciate them for their other aspects.

Hurricane Matthew · Apr 27, 2013

nezumify said:
I have an INFP as a best friend and a few ENFP friends. The only thing that irritates me about the relationship is the emotionally depressed ruts that xNFPs can get into. The ones that they can't seem to get out of, and even though I know a logical solution to it. Even though most people can see the cause and effect but no one can say anything because it's not like the xNFP doesn't already know, and saying something only seems to make them swirl deeper into unhappiness. I've tried, and it never works. Plus I get told that I'm too blunt, so now I start off important discussions with "I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but I don't have a gentler way to say this...."

I know how this is 100% -_- An INFP friendship ended for me all because I tried to help her out with depression. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong... but I was accused of being too "blunt" when I thought I was using my kindest words possible. Things spiraled out of control from there... and she became mildly verbally abusive toward me, saying that if I really cared about her, then I'd accept her for what she is. To want to "change her" meant I never liked her from the beginning, when that wasn't what I meant when I tried to help...? There were all these false accusations aimed at me over me trying to give a little bit of advice. It became too much for me and I had to give up since there just wasn't a point anymore. I've dealt with severe depression before ((it was how we met; as two people who could relate and try to support each other)) but I improved while she wanted to wallow in misery forever... and while she never admitted it, probably wanted me to stay depressed along with her since "misery loves company", I guess.

Everything is too "blunt" for them, though, yet they feel like it's okay to be blunt towards others. I got a lot of shit aimed at me over that, between her and some INFP friend she had. This friend of hers accused me of not knowing what it was like to deal with depression and that's why I was being so "cold" even though... I've been through a shitload of depression myself. It's because I knew what it's like that I thought I knew how to help improve it. Whatever, though :/ If people want to refuse help then I guess they deserve their depression.

Meh...

nezumify · Apr 27, 2013

Matthew Nisshoku said:
I know how this is 100% -_- An INFP friendship ended for me all because I tried to help her out with depression. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong... but I was accused of being too "blunt" when I thought I was using my kindest words possible. Things spiraled out of control from there... and she became mildly verbally abusive toward me, saying that if I really cared about her, then I'd accept her for what she is. To want to "change her" meant I never liked her from the beginning, when that wasn't what I meant when I tried to help...? There were all these false accusations aimed at me over me trying to give a little bit of advice. It became too much for me and I had to give up since there just wasn't a point anymore. I've dealt with severe depression before ((it was how we met; as two people who could relate and try to support each other)) but I improved while she wanted to wallow in misery forever... and while she never admitted it, probably wanted me to stay depressed along with her since "misery loves company", I guess.

Everything is too "blunt" for them, though, yet they feel like it's okay to be blunt towards others. I got a lot of shit aimed at me over that, between her and some INFP friend she had. This friend of hers accused me of not knowing what it was like to deal with depression and that's why I was being so "cold" even though... I've been through a shitload of depression myself. It's because I knew what it's like that I thought I knew how to help improve it. Whatever, though :/ If people want to refuse help then I guess they deserve their depression.

Meh...

Our friendship is still going. But only because I had to tell him "Look, I'm sorry but I can be only a fairweather friend with you. I can't stop myself from wanting to 'help' with your depression. I want you to be happy, but I want you more as a friend. So unless you ask for it, I'm not going to acknowledge your feelings stuff. It will surely ruin this friendship if I continue."

At which we both agree was for the best. When he wants a blunt unbiased viewpoint he comes to me. Otherwise we stay on safer subjects, and he talks about his feelings with his enfp friends.

mushr00m · Apr 27, 2013

Matthew Nisshoku said:
I know how this is 100% -_- An INFP friendship ended for me all because I tried to help her out with depression. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong... but I was accused of being too "blunt" when I thought I was using my kindest words possible. Things spiraled out of control from there... and she became mildly verbally abusive toward me, saying that if I really cared about her, then I'd accept her for what she is. To want to "change her" meant I never liked her from the beginning, when that wasn't what I meant when I tried to help...? There were all these false accusations aimed at me over me trying to give a little bit of advice. It became too much for me and I had to give up since there just wasn't a point anymore. I've dealt with severe depression before ((it was how we met; as two people who could relate and try to support each other)) but I improved while she wanted to wallow in misery forever... and while she never admitted it, probably wanted me to stay depressed along with her since "misery loves company", I guess.

Everything is too "blunt" for them, though, yet they feel like it's okay to be blunt towards others. I got a lot of shit aimed at me over that, between her and some INFP friend she had. This friend of hers accused me of not knowing what it was like to deal with depression and that's why I was being so "cold" even though... I've been through a shitload of depression myself. It's because I knew what it's like that I thought I knew how to help improve it. Whatever, though :/ If people want to refuse help then I guess they deserve their depression.

Meh...

She sounds like she was very unhealthy although perhaps both of your behaviours to the friendship contributed negative results. Although it may have seemed the right idea to help, its still a delicate area. The idea would have not to have tried to work out all the INFP's problems, we have a strong knowledge of what our problems are, we just struggle to implement tangible strategies, then feel useless because we arn't getting to where we want to be, perhaps we are over analyzing our problems to death. I do relate a lot to your friend and am ashamed to say that I have behaved in very similar ways when another person is becoming what I perceive too dictatorial even in the event of offering logical advice. At that point, its like every logical suggestion is like a sharp needle prick to the skin. Whats happening is that during this moments, we are oversensitized or over aroused, being around Te types at this point is especially hard. And its especially hard for those around us to know what to do after a point. But what can be done is through unlocking their Ne which INTP shares. Encouraging the INFP to come to solutions to their own problems, 'what do you think could be done' rather than 'do this'. This happens even when the INFP slams into a brickwall, the answer lies in Ne. But at this point, the INFP should feel motivated enough through exercising their Ne to better access their Te, put it to better use to become more proactive.

Calvin · May 3, 2013

I can really identify with this. That's pretty much how all my encounters with INFPs have gone.

Brian1 · May 3, 2013

So, are you INTPs rebelling against an unhealthy INFPs "special snowflake", that is sort of unable to see criticism as anything but negative?

just for the record, the special snowflake is an actual quote/coinage of word from an INFP. Also, I'm not passing judgement with this post, just asking a question,because, I've been told as a T, that my own words are too blunt. I think I can sort of understand people's point of just trying to be kind and being accused of being cruel,because, I like to help people, but,its the natural function on the INFP to help people to the point if they don't help people, they feel worthless. Well, this is all very kind and all,but,I feel,there's a lot of people that want to help in the world and I sense sometimes,people in the INFP community,probably not all of them, but some, don't want to share that feeling of helping someone with other people,unless they are in charge and doing the helping, and you're on the receiving end. And when you say something, its like 'look we're doing all this for you, why do you have to argue with us and act so negative?',when in truth, I just want to share in the act of helping other people. Other than they that INFPs make great friends.

At least that's my opinion,and interpretation of people's complaints in this thread.

themonocle · May 4, 2013

Hmmm. Now, wait for a minute. If anyone can take the cake for being a blunt jerk it's an overtaxed INFJ. It's not just a T thing. Or an INFP thing. It may be an introverted thing. For an introverted thinker it might be the same as someone coming along and taking over your thought child. Telling you how insensitive you are because they just want some credit for a project too and you are hogging all the intellectual property. I could see how well that would fly.

That's where I would start brandishing mechanical pencils and get stabby about my book reports.

Snow · May 7, 2013

I believe the "problems" you are struggling to come to terms with lie entirely in the nature of xNFPs and xNTPs. (Addressing the OP directly.) My mother is an INFP. One of my sisters is an INFP. I was married to an xNFP for 6 years. None of them understand the way I evaluate the items I perceive, even if they perceive the items as well.

xNFPs look at the world with Ne, just as xNTPs do, and so may ask the same questions or find unusual approaches to looking at subjects. This translates directly into interesting conversations and initial attraction. Unfortunately, once an xNFP or xNTP grasps a subject, they processes it oppositely: the xNFP applies their own experiences and ideals to the object, while the xNTP simply cannot and refuses to do so, as doing so is "wrong."

At that point conversation becomes fruitless, as the xNFP strongly tends to apply their subjective opinions, the xNTP rejecting subjectivity altogether (or the inverse occurs, where the xNTP applies objective observations/opinions and the xNFP cannot grasp them).

Ne brings them together, the xNTP's Ti and Fe repulse the xNFP's Fi and Te and vice versa.

Another observation is that xNTPs will inevitably identify xNFPs as manipulators. Not because they are intentionally being manipulative, but the xNTP generally maintains this idea: "expressing non-objective opinions = expressing potential false-hoods = expressing lies." Naturally the xNFP isn't truly doing this, but the xNTP cannot handle it well at all. Inversely, xNFPs will inevitably identify xNTPs as heartless, as the xNFP generally maintains this type of idea: "When I express my feelings, I am sharing a part of my life with someone--part of who I am." And the xNTP doesn't understand how to deal with this idea in the slightest.

(Really, despite my own extensive experience with xNFPs, I struggle with handling any sort of communication regarding feelings. If I were to express my deepest feelings about some subject, I would expect the xNFP to objectively process it with me, potentially arguing with me, tearing my philosophy/feelings apart, asking me if I'm just being stupid about it, etc. etc. If they don't, then they aren't helping me at all!)

Hope this helps.

azdahak · May 7, 2013

Revenant said:
Another observation is that xNTPs will inevitably identify xNFPs as manipulators. Not because they are intentionally being manipulative, but the xNTP generally maintains this idea: "expressing non-objective opinions = expressing potential false-hoods = expressing lies." Naturally the xNFP isn't truly doing this, but the xNTP cannot handle it well at all.

Great post. This in particular I found really insightful. I don't take compliments well at all -- they all sound like lies or ingratiation to me, even if they are sincere.

ScarlettHayden · May 7, 2013

Revenant said:
Another observation is that xNTPs will inevitably identify xNFPs as manipulators. Not because they are intentionally being manipulative, but the xNTP generally maintains this idea: "expressing non-objective opinions = expressing potential false-hoods = expressing lies." Naturally the xNFP isn't truly doing this, but the xNTP cannot handle it well at all. Inversely, xNFPs will inevitably identify xNTPs as heartless, as the xNFP generally maintains this type of idea: "When I express my feelings, I am sharing a part of my life with someone--part of who I am." And the xNTP doesn't understand how to deal with this idea in the slightest.

(Really, despite my own extensive experience with xNFPs, I struggle with handling any sort of communication regarding feelings. If I were to express my deepest feelings about some subject, I would expect the xNFP to objectively process it with me, potentially arguing with me, tearing my philosophy/feelings apart, asking me if I'm just being stupid about it, etc. etc. If they don't, then they aren't helping me at all!)

Hope this helps.

I was just thinking how Fi could be more manipulative without even realizing, as Fi users could get people to believe in a fact that isn't necessarily true.

When I tend to tell people my feelings I always try to keep an objective focus about it otherwise I feel like I'm just unnecessarily whining. My best friend is an ENTP too so those times when I haven't been able to keep a cool head he's always been there to rip my feelings apart logically ^.^ While although it can come across a little harsh, I grudgingly admit that it always works.

I'm not really that heartless though. I like to let people work through their emotions first and then slowly draw them back to reality using logic. I think what I like about Fi users is the fact that they help me realize that emotions don't always need to be viewed with suspicion and be ripped apart and analyzed until there's nothing left. Compared to talking with another Ti user I think that's what's initially so liberating. But then the differences start to appear more and more and in the end it just serves to frustrate me even more. At least Ti is consistent, for the most part.

I'm thinking maybe I should find some more Fe dom/aux friends. They would probably be able to help me accept emotions more without losing that objective focus.

OrangeAppled · May 9, 2013

Have you expressed this to the INFP friend before allowing the friendship to die?
I had a friend call me out once on being too guarded, never sharing personal details about my life & especially being closed with my feelings & emotions. I didn't quite realize it & another part of me assumed no one was interested. So I began to open up a bit after that.

Sometimes what's going on in our heads is just really heavy and we KNOW you cannot handle it. It's like we're doing you a favor by not communicating it. And based on people's reactions to INFPs opening up, I think we're not wrong in this assumption. There is so much contradictory feedback regarding us being too closed up or too whiny/emo; which is it, people?!

ScarlettHayden said:
Okay, a question to you INFP's. What do you think of Ne doms when they're on a tangent and talk about everything and nothing all at once? My INFP friend said it was interesting and could listen to me talk all day.. but I eventually ran out of things to say since it was mostly one sided and I had nothing to work with.. hence why it died out. What do you other INFP's think?

I'm okay with silence. After a lot of talking (whether it's just them or us both), I probably am enjoying the silence.
Sometimes I'll start talking again if I've processed some of what was said & have some thoughts on it. It can help to slow down the pace too or take up a deeper subject instead of just random Ne nothing-and-everything. I may feel overwhelmed or intimidated to contribute otherwise.

Sometimes it feels like Ne-dom are poking me, and that can make me wary to emerge. I feel a certain pressure to perform. I might reciprocate more if things are less direct, more of a natural & round-about way of getting to know what's in my head.

nezumify said:
I have an INFP as a best friend and a few ENFP friends. The only thing that irritates me about the relationship is the emotionally depressed ruts that xNFPs can get into. The ones that they can't seem to get out of, and even though I know a logical solution to it. Even though most people can see the cause and effect but no one can say anything because it's not like the xNFP doesn't already know, and saying something only seems to make them swirl deeper into unhappiness. I've tried, and it never works. Plus I get told that I'm too blunt, so now I start off important discussions with "I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but I don't have a gentler way to say this...."

In this situation, I can say rather confidently that you really don't understand or know the core issue. You only think you do, which is why your advice is unwanted, unused &/or ineffective. It's possible you have not even been told the real issue, but fed something simpler to put you off track. Fi types will sometimes present something as simple to people to guard the deeper feelings. Then people offer simple solutions & get mad when they're not applied. Well, that's because you were given a "fake problem", or really, a dumbed down version for those we don't think are emotionally capable of understanding. Much like how you would explain something complicated to a 5 year old...

Bluntness often seems dismissive. It trivializes, reducing the weight of the problem, in effect, saying they shouldn't feel that way. That makes people feel silly & stupid, which exacerbates their bad feeling. Often, people do know the solution to their problem; but they need to heal emotionally first before they can get back up & move forward.

I can refer you to this post (and perhaps the one above it):
http://personalitycafe.com/infp-for...alists/11718-question-infps-people-long-time-experience-infps-3.html#post246732

And this one, as well as the whole thread in general:
http://personalitycafe.com/infp-for...996-infps-intps-fascination-passion-confusion-hurt-heartbreak-3.html#post815064

azdahak · May 9, 2013

OrangeAppled said:
In this situation, I can say rather confidently that you really don't understand or know the core issue. You only think you do, which is why your advice is unwanted, unused &/or ineffective. It's possible you have not even been told the real issue, but fed something simpler to put you off track. Fi types will sometimes present something as simple to people to guard the deeper feelings. Then people offer simple solutions & get mad when they're not applied. Well, that's because you were given a "fake problem", or really, a dumbed down version for those we don't think are emotionally capable of understanding. Much like how you would explain something complicated to a 5 year old...

Bluntness often seems dismissive. It trivializes, reducing the weight of the problem, in effect, saying they shouldn't feel that way. That makes people feel silly & stupid, which exacerbates their bad feeling. Often, people do know the solution to their problem; but they need to heal emotionally first before they can get back up & move 5064

Perhaps blunt and obvious suggestions are just the response to the question having been "dumbed down" to 5 year old levels to begin with? In effect, ask a stupid question get a stupid answer.

Can you give an example of an emotional situation that is so complicated that another adult is incapable of understanding?

OrangeAppled · May 9, 2013

azdahak said:
Perhaps blunt and obvious suggestions are just the response to the question having been "dumbed down" to 5 year old levels to begin with? In effect, ask a stupid question get a stupid answer.

That's the point - it's like a test, and you failed if you got blunt & rude. It's like you put a bit out there to see how someone responds. If they're dismissive or impatient or trivializing, then you withdraw again.

Can you give an example of an emotional situation that is so complicated that another adult is incapable of understanding?

No, I'm not good with concrete examples. I don't remember details that well. That's usually the issue - the language is abstract & people have a hard time understanding what it even means. Did you read my link?

azdahak · May 9, 2013

OrangeAppled said:
That's the point - it's like a test, and you failed if you got blunt & rude. It's like you put a bit out there to see how someone responds. If they're dismissive or impatient or trivializing, then you withdraw again.

No, I'm not good with concrete examples. I don't remember details that well. That's usually the issue - the language is abstract & people have a hard time understanding what it even means. Did you read my link?

Well, I can understand that reaction if you were simply testing the waters and getting an uncaring or ill-conceived response.

But the situations you gave were:

- purposefully misrepresenting your feelings with a fake problem.

- overly-simplifying your explanation because you feel someone else is incapable of understanding.

I don't see how it can be expected for people to react honestly or provide anything other than platitudes and trivialities based on false or minimal explanations. Moreover I can see how some can get annoyed if they sense they are being talked down to like a 5 year old or lied to.

I did follow the links, but they didn't give me an example of a complex emotional situation ungraspable by another adult.

In any case, perhaps you can consider a page out of my play book. Many times I have complicated issues in my life involving the complex bureaucracy of where and what I do for a living. It's not a context that's easily explained in a short amount of time. Very few people can give me good advice concerning this because they're not in a situation to understand the complexity of the situation.

So I tell people up from who ask me…hey…listen..I just need to spout and run my mouth off. I'm not looking for any advice, I just want to bitch. I find a lot of people respect and understand that and understand that what I'm looking for is a cheerleader…. and sometimes, they'll point out something that helps, even it it's only indirectly.

OrangeAppled · May 9, 2013

azdahak said:
Well, I can understand that reaction if you were simply testing the waters and getting an uncaring or ill-conceived response.

But the situations you gave were:

- purposefully misrepresenting your feelings with a fake problem.

- overly-simplifying your explanation because you feel someone else is incapable of understanding.

Not an outright fake problem, just not the main issue. It's like smaller aspect, and then if received with some understanding, perhaps more will be divulged.

As for the latter - that's a judgment call I think we're allowed to make, who we confide in & who we don't confide in.

I'm not looking for advice 99.999999% of the time either. That's what the linked info was getting at.

Elistra · May 18, 2013

Maybe it is an Fi thing? When I have "the feels" in real life I must be difficult to understand properly, given the general cluelessness people tend to exhibit in their responses. Or maybe it is shock at someone with my personality having "the feels" in the first place? That could be it too, I suppose? Not sure.

Forest_for_the_Trees · May 18, 2013

OrangeAppled said:
Not an outright fake problem, just not the main issue. It's like smaller aspect, and then if received with some understanding, perhaps more will be divulged.

As for the latter - that's a judgment call I think we're allowed to make, who we confide in & who we don't confide in.

Hi I definitely do this with the simplified versions of things I'm concerned about, part of it is that because I'm fairly sensitive if I'm pondering something that really concerns me it needs to be given sufficient gravity and understanding.

I've had situations where I've told people things that have been quite grave or concerning life events (by subjective or objective standards) and they've just been brushed over or misunderstood, I don't think that NTs are necessarily those types though.

My mother's a ENTP and she can be a really good listener/shoulder. That said, family relationships are different because there is probably more trust there to begin with. Actually, I think I probably confide in my ENTP mother about some things more than anyone else!

listentotherain · May 19, 2013

Maybe an example will help. How things are supposed to unfold.

1. Me, angsty, mildly frustrated, it's not because anyone's done anything wrong, I just think things could be a lot better than they are, and people do stupid things that I need to know that they would do better if they knew how it made everyone else feel. And I can imagine a better way, it's just I definitely wouldn't trust myself to do it ("it" in this case being roommate selection and housing lottery, by the way), beyond my own small part. I think that because of the way other people are handling a situation, it stops me and others from doing something that needs to be done in the proper way that could actually lead to people having a chance to act in a really decent way, and it's "wasting my time" but that's not the right phrase, because I don't want to worry about other people hurting me or one of my friends because it benefits them, and I don't want to be around people who would even think about doing things that way, which is why I'm hiding in this building instead of staying in the dorm where all the drama happens, but I wish I could take a couple people aside and just do things properly, with them, because I trust those people. But that would involve being in the atmosphere with those OTHER people, which makes it really hard to feel safe talking. Why don't people take things like this seriously?

How would this unfold:

1. Me, angsty, frustrated.
Suppose you actually sit down and ask, "what's up?"
"Not much, you?"
"Doing well, thanks" -- okay, conversation over.
"good."
period of silence. If you don't have somewhere to go, then: with a smile:
2. "I still need to find a roommate." Self-deprecating humor. This makes me feel better, it puts things in perspective. Weeks have passed, why haven't I sorted things out? Procrastination :happy:
Not that the above rant has disappeared, it hasn't. It's just clearly not what you expect from me, and if I can comfort myself, better me than you, I know me, do you know me?

If you make fun of me at this point or give advice, you are not my friend, though I still like you. Thanks.
3. "and I don't know where I'm living next year, because it's hard to pick a place to live." Hints at some of my concerns (oh, you don't see it? Well, it's more in tone. Picking a place to live entails all of the above issues...)

Same as after two, but now I'm not just trying to comfort myself any more. If you're still interested,
4. long rant, if I can

nezumify · May 24, 2013

OrangeAppled said:
In this situation, I can say rather confidently that you really don't understand or know the core issue. You only think you do, which is why your advice is unwanted, unused &/or ineffective. It's possible you have not even been told the real issue, but fed something simpler to put you off track. Fi types will sometimes present something as simple to people to guard the deeper feelings. Then people offer simple solutions & get mad when they're not applied. Well, that's because you were given a "fake problem", or really, a dumbed down version for those we don't think are emotionally capable of understanding. Much like how you would explain something complicated to a 5 year old...

Bluntness often seems dismissive. It trivializes, reducing the weight of the problem, in effect, saying they shouldn't feel that way. That makes people feel silly & stupid, which exacerbates their bad feeling. Often, people do know the solution to their problem; but they need to heal emotionally first before they can get back up & move forward.

I can refer you to this post (and perhaps the one above it):
http://personalitycafe.com/infp-for...alists/11718-question-infps-people-long-time-experience-infps-3.html#post246732

And this one, as well as the whole thread in general:
http://personalitycafe.com/infp-for...996-infps-intps-fascination-passion-confusion-hurt-heartbreak-3.html#post815064

You're right. I may not be able to see ALL the problems, but I can damn well see some of them. And not just the trivial lies that he tries to feed me. Which, by the way, don't work. Just because the INTP doesn't know the root of the problem, doesn't mean we believe your lies either. Patterns are usually right. And if the time that you are depressed/upset doesn't match the fib and/or your previous reactions to similar situations. Then something is wrong...and I want to know why it's different.
Now....if my friend were to say, lie about a lot of his emotions. Then my ability to notice his patterns would be compromised by his deceit. I would rather someone just tell me to not bother them, then try to 'pass me off' or say what they think I want to hear. If I am told trivial things, then I will assume you are a trivial person and become bored of the friendship.

I don't see the need to heal and than move forward. Moving forward IS healing. It's like saying that you are trying something. "Try" isn't real. You can 'try' and step over the line, but you'll never make it till you step over.

devoid · May 27, 2013

Hmm, would I rather date an INFP or beat myself over the head with a crowbar? Which one will be more painful in the long-run... These are important things to consider. Crowbars can't jump to erroneous conclusions based on their personal insecurities, attack you randomly and then use your reaction as a basis for treating you like shit...

The alluring trap of INFP's..

azdahak

Hurricane Matthew

nezumify

mushr00m

Calvin

Brian1

themonocle

Snow

azdahak

ScarlettHayden

OrangeAppled

azdahak

OrangeAppled

azdahak

OrangeAppled

Elistra

Forest_for_the_Trees

listentotherain

nezumify

devoid

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