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Communication with ISTJ boyfriend - from ENFP girl

[ISTJ]
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communication conversations enfp girl istj and enfp istj male love relationship
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#61 ·
thosewhodanced said:
Haha classic.

ISTJ: *Practical point.*

ENFP: But why did you make that point? What's the underlying reason?

ISTJ: It's just my point.

ENFP: Are you sure I didn't make you mad?

ISTJ: Stop overthinking. It's just a point.
Click to expand...
^This.

With us it's often I think he's mad so then I get defensive and withhold and then he's like why are you mad, and I'm like because I thought you were mad!!!

Sigh...
 
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#64 ·
thosewhodanced said:
Or, alternatively, to the straight-up ISTJ, am I just doomed to bore you guys with my ENFP speculations?
Click to expand...
Random speculation is like crack cocaine to a Ne dom. Unchanneled, it will lead you into a spiral of nonsense that leads you on a chase similar to what Alice experienced. Grounded to a modicum of relativity, it will enable you to achieve mind boggling things.

The ISTJ seeks stability and security. Left unchecked, our groundedness becomes our nemesis, relegating us to a boring existence of dealing with the general ennui of the daily grind. Should we develop a higher level of possibility thinking, our achievements will soar.

Since, regardless of type, we think abstractly and live concretely, all that remains is for us to seek ways to incorporate these things into our lives, sharing them with each other. Once accomplished, the benefits are wonderful. Brilliant conversations that sharpen your awareness of each other and yourself.

Teach him the random abstract thinking that you love by embracing practicality. He should teach you practicality by embracing abstract possibility thinking.

The conversations I share with SWMBO are most enjoyable, filled with possibilities and abstract, yet viable and considered solutions and realizations.


Sent from my Z10 using Tapatalk 2
 
Discussion starter · #65 ·
niss said:
Random speculation is like crack cocaine to a Ne dom. Unchanneled, it will lead you into a spiral of nonsense that leads you on a chase similar to what Alice experienced. Grounded to a modicum of relativity, it will enable you to achieve mind boggling things.

The ISTJ seeks stability and security. Left unchecked, our groundedness becomes our nemesis, relegating us to a boring existence of dealing with the general ennui of the daily grind. Should we develop a higher level of possibility thinking, our achievements will soar.

Since, regardless of type, we think abstractly and live concretely, all that remains is for us to seek ways to incorporate these things into our lives, sharing them with each other. Once accomplished, the benefits are wonderful. Brilliant conversations that sharpen your awareness of each other and yourself.

Teach him the random abstract thinking that you love by embracing practicality. He should teach you practicality by embracing abstract possibility thinking.

The conversations I share with SWMBO are most enjoyable, filled with possibilities and abstract, yet viable and considered solutions and realizations.
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The bolded bit is sooo true for me. And I love that whole section afterwards - it can be frustrating and exhausting to change your natural cognitive functions to fit someone else's. But so worth it once you manage to click. I need to read up more on these (I'm fairly new to MBTI and only really know about it because of our communication problems... What a realisation that I was in that tricky ENFP/ISTJ coupling -_- haha). Any good resources that people would like to plug/recommend? Either here in the Articles Section of PerC or outside in the googlesphere somewhere?
 
#66 ·
thosewhodanced said:
The bolded bit is sooo true for me. And I love that whole section afterwards - it can be frustrating and exhausting to change your natural cognitive functions to fit someone else's. But so worth it once you manage to click. I need to read up more on these (I'm fairly new to MBTI and only really know about it because of our communication problems... What a realisation that I was in that tricky ENFP/ISTJ coupling -_- haha). Any good resources that people would like to plug/recommend? Either here in the Articles Section of PerC or outside in the googlesphere somewhere?
Click to expand...
Don't approach it based on your MBTI type, but on your love for the other person. That conquers all types.
 
Discussion starter · #67 · (Edited)
Wow, so my ISTJ came home the other night and randomly said, 'I want to learn about philosophy. Where do I start?'

I was insanely thrilled at the prospect of adding philosophical discourse to this relationship as I had basically come to accept that it was never going to happen haha. I'm guessing though that my obsession with Piercean semiotics and Romantic poetry might be a bit too abstract to start. I'm thinking maybe he might find it more natural to grasp some Carl Sagan, or I guess the more famous guys, Marx, Nietzsche, etc. I'm not a philosophy major myself or anything like that, and my knowledge of the topic is based mainly around what I've come across in literature/fiction/poetry or random obsessive phases that I go through.

a) Any ideas for other philosophers that ISTJs might more naturally relate to/grasp?
b) How would ISTJs go about 'learning about' philosophy? E.g. I stumble across it in my literature adventures / random and very haphazard googling. Comparatively, he doesn't read much fiction or poetry in general, so would something like an introductory textbook be more up his alley? I have a few philosophy friends who I can borrow such books off / my university library. Otherwise I'm more than happy to read him all my fave poetry and books. Actually I'll suggest both to him.
c) Why is this happening??? Is this normal?? Is my overactive Ne bringing out his? Haha

This seems quite out of character of him but well, I have noticed him becoming more open-minded over the past couple of years. He's normally known as 'grumpy grandpa' among friends and relatives so they love when I appear to shake him up a bit, in a good way. (Like my ISTJ mother loves that he's so sensible and grounded hahaha, much unlike myself.)

Fingers crossed fingers crossed fingers crossed that he legit gets into this :3
 
Discussion starter · #68 ·
Oh, and of course I already asked "What types of philosophy do you want to get into? Any particular topic?"

His answer was, "Just philosophy in general and then I'll specialise." <---- I have no idea where this is coming from but ehh I love it haha.
 
#69 ·
thosewhodanced said:
Wow, so my ISTJ came home the other night and randomly said, 'I want to learn about philosophy. Where do I start?'

I was insanely thrilled at the prospect of adding philosophical discourse to this relationship as I had basically come to accept that it was never going to happen haha. I'm guessing though that my obsession with Piercean semiotics and Romantic poetry might be a bit too abstract to start. I'm thinking maybe he might find it more natural to grasp some Carl Sagan, or I guess the more famous guys, Marx, Nietzsche, etc. I'm not a philosophy major myself or anything like that, and my knowledge of the topic is based mainly around what I've come across in literature/fiction/poetry or random obsessive phases that I go through.

a) Any ideas for other philosophers that ISTJs might more naturally relate to/grasp?
b) How would ISTJs go about 'learning about' philosophy? E.g. I stumble across it in my literature adventures / random and very haphazard googling. Comparatively, he doesn't read much fiction or poetry in general, so would something like an introductory textbook be more up his alley? I have a few philosophy friends who I can borrow such books off / my university library. Otherwise I'm more than happy to read him all my fave poetry and books. Actually I'll suggest both to him.
c) Why is this happening??? Is this normal?? Is my overactive Ne bringing out his? Haha

This seems quite out of character of him but well, I have noticed him becoming more open-minded over the past couple of years. He's normally known as 'grumpy grandpa' among friends and relatives so they love when I appear to shake him up a bit, in a good way. (Like my ISTJ mother loves that he's so sensible and grounded hahaha.)

Fingers crossed fingers crossed fingers crossed that he legit gets into this :3
Click to expand...
A) That is dependent on the individual philosopher and the individual ISTJ's values. If a philosopher or speaker that is in a position of lecturing others, or is considered to be quite knowledgeable on a subject is not careful with his/her statements and says something that is off of the wall, I'm likely to turn them off, ignoring what else that they have to say.

B) Depends on the individual. We all have preferred learning styles. It is extremely important that relevance be established.

C) We are all influenced by those with whom we associate, to be sure. However, this is likely to be sparked by something he heard or read that piqued his interest. Or, it could be that he considers himself to be lacking in this area and desires to fill in a perceived gap in his knowledge.

Here is a link to a lecture series that I found informative and entertaining:

Justice Harvard Lectures - YouTube

And someone who's philosophy has explained much to me:

Amazon.com: Stephen R. Covey: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle

Pay particular attention to "Principle Centered Leadership" as that is his most philosophical book.

A word of warning:

Your statements about him seem to have a tinge of condescension and a desire to see him reach his possibilities via you as a catalyst. This is a common trait in ENFPs. Carefully examine your intentions toward him in this area. People respond best to an example lived, over a push toward something. There is this thing called a natural opposition reflex and it will stop progress dead in it's tracks. A push is a gentle thing that should be used very sparingly. If you love HIM, then you will want to see him develop in his own way at his own pace.

It doesn't sound like this is really something that he is passionate about, so it is likely that he will dabble in it enough to satisfy his curiosity and then walk away. However, should he become passionate about this, or a particular area of philosophy, you should brace yourself for the typical response of the ISTJ - he will become a guru of sorts, delving into the topic very deeply until his knowledge surpasses those around him ... including you. It is not a competitiveness, or a desire to be the guru, but is not uncommon for an ISTJ to become a local expert in a hobby or field of interest.
 
Discussion starter · #70 ·
@niss

Thank you for the links. I don't mean at all to sound condescending - I guess IRL everyone who knows us knows that he is far more sensible and competent out of the two of us, so I get the license to talk flippantly. Or perhaps it's just an Aussie thing, or just our group or something that we all constantly tease each other as a sign of affection (compared to the teasing I get from him and his cousins, my previous statements are of the highest diplomacy haha). I actually have the highest respect for him and am thrilled with however he wants to grow himself, regardless of whether it benefits me directly or no :) the fact that this is an area that I am already interested in is honestly just a massive bonus :)

Anyway, thank you for the links and I'll pass them on to him as a starting point for his newfound interest. Steven R. Covey's material DOES look like his sort of thing. And I'll have a squiz myself through some of the former lectures, too :)
 
#71 ·
I am a die hard objectivist. Figures since I'm a Type 1. My INTP brother told me to read The Fountainhead when I was in college, and it has since been my favorite book (I read it in 4 days). It felt like I was reading a biography about myself, and it portrayed the world how I saw it. I've read every other Ayn Rand book, as well as her non-fiction. I probably should read other works so I'm more worldy, but I don't.
 
#72 ·
thosewhodanced said:
@niss

I don't mean at all to sound condescending - I guess IRL everyone who knows us knows that he is far more sensible and competent out of the two of us, so I get the license to talk flippantly. Or perhaps it's just an Aussie thing, or just our group or something that we all constantly tease each other as a sign of affection (compared to the teasing I get from him and his cousins, my previous statements are of the highest diplomacy haha). I actually have the highest respect for him and am thrilled with however he wants to grow himself, regardless of whether it benefits me directly or no :) the fact that this is an area that I am already interested in is honestly just a massive bonus :)
Click to expand...
I'm Australian too and I got the same impression Niss did, it is easy to be misunderstood in writing isn't it?

On the 'taking the mickey' subject, be careful how you do this, because it is better not to do it than to go too far.
 
Discussion starter · #73 ·
kdr85 said:
I am a die hard objectivist. Figures since I'm a Type 1. My INTP brother told me to read The Fountainhead when I was in college, and it has since been my favorite book (I read it in 4 days). It felt like I was reading a biography about myself, and it portrayed the world how I saw it. I've read every other Ayn Rand book, as well as her non-fiction. I probably should read other works so I'm more worldy, but I don't.
Click to expand...
Haven't yet read Ayn Rand myself, but you're not the first person who has commended her and from googling objectivism just now it looks kind of daunting yet simultaneously fascinating. If you want to read other books, just off the top of my head I can suggest that you might like:

- Larsson's 'The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' trilogy - intriguing plot, featuring a highly deviant and individualistic lead character and great story telling.
- Wilde's 'The Picture of Dorian Gray' - love how the concept of self-absorption is explored here.
- J. K. Rowling's 'The Casual Vacancy' - this is NOTHING like the Harry Potter series (which I do love more, but this book does have that off-beat literary merit). Rowling takes a whole other approach to writing, and this book is basically a massive character study on all the different individuals who comprise this small, unimportant town.
- Markus Zusak's 'The Book Thief' or 'The Messenger' - no idea why you would like these haha, Zusak is just one of my favourite authors. He's a brilliant conceptual writer.

Just suggestions, IDK if any of those will actually click.

Daniel_James_Maher said:
I'm Australian too and I got the same impression Niss did, it is easy to be misunderstood in writing isn't it?

On the 'taking the mickey' subject, be careful how you do this, because it is better not to do it than to go too far.
Click to expand...
Ahaha yes, indeed. My bad, guys! And I can't deny that IRL everything I do is invariably cute, even when I try (really hard) to be big and serious. This is an age and physical stature thing (I am a very small person - my avatar here is fairly close to my actual stature). There are things I can get away with that you guys can't, and other things that I wouldn't even entertain the thought of trying.

One of the research projects I was involved in at my part-time workplace was about gender in leadership roles: women are more successful in leadership roles when they display a 'democratic, transformational' leadership style that basically alludes to the archetypal mother figure, while acting 'transactionally' or in an 'authoritarian' leadership style gets them called a bitch. Contrarily, men are respected in both styles (though the current workplace favours more democratic-type approaches). My point there is role expectations. I guess at the moment my 'cuteness' is something I'm kind of stuck with, for better and worse, so I make the most of it while I can :p which includes some totally inoffensively-intended tease-talk.

But I digress, sorry! I'll be mindful to sound as respectful as my intentions are around these forums, cheers :)
 
#74 ·
@thosewhodanced, before I even read @niss assessment, my first reaction was calm down, the poor guy expressed that he "wanted to learn" a little something about philosophy. To most ISTJs that means reading as much as humanly possible in a very brief period of time on Wikipedia about the historical and objective perspective of the field and then decide if it's of any worth to go deeper.

In a way it's like how ENFPs tend to get obsessive about certain things they find interesting and then once the *shiny object* dulls they discard it for something new. It's how we satisfy our need to explore. For ISTJs they constantly need to fill up that Si bucket so that if there was ever a need for that information in the future (ie an important conversation, perhaps with a boss or during a job interview, or if they are asked a question about it during a trivia game) it would be there in their knowledge warehouse.

Most likely he just wants cursory knowledge so that he can hold his own if the topic comes up. Though like niss said, if he does become passionate about it he will strive to know EVERYTHING about the topic.

If you get too invested in it he's going to freak out. I've gone all crazy before when my boy has expressed an interest and it's an immediate buzz-kill. It actually really upsets him that he feels all pressured by me. I remember we once had a conversation about love languages and he seemed interested and I got all excited and I sent him all this stuff about it to learn and the quiz, and he flipped out on me, saying it was too much and that he can't feel like I'm force-feeding him.
 
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#76 ·
kdr85 said:
I am a die hard objectivist. Figures since I'm a Type 1. My INTP brother told me to read The Fountainhead when I was in college, and it has since been my favorite book (I read it in 4 days). It felt like I was reading a biography about myself, and it portrayed the world how I saw it. I've read every other Ayn Rand book, as well as her non-fiction. I probably should read other works so I'm more worldy, but I don't.
Click to expand...
Between The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged, which did you prefer? ... and why?
 
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