[sheepysowner69420]

Title says it all. Can two's appear four-like in how they are concerned with their own emotions and no-one elses?

 

[ENTJudgement]

Title says it all. Can two's appear four-like in how they are concerned with their own emotions and no-one elses?

2s can be selfish coz 2s are often doing shit for others to gain control over people to gain their “love” so the intent is selfish.

 

[Ecto gammat]

I am concerned with other's emotions as a 4, fyi.

 

[Ecto gammat]

All human beings are selfish in certain ways at certain times, irrespective of type. It's good to take possible mental illnesses into account rather than attributing undesirable behavior to a specific type. Everyone is an asshole at their worst. Are they self aware and willing to work on it is a better question.

 

[Mark R]

Doing something for others, expecting something in return is selfish. 2s can often be guilty of that.

 

[secondpassing]

Doing something for others, expecting something in return is selfish. 2s can often be guilty of that.

Not entirely true. It would depend on the expected level of reciprocation.

If I only give out of my surplus, then this is no problem. But when my resources are low, I too need to be fed. Just some acknowledgment or reciprocated personal interest would be very valuable to me. Then I can continue. Of course, I can be refreshed from another source, but to be known as someone who was helpful is a great feeling.

 

[Hexigoon]

Title says it all. Can two's appear four-like in how they are concerned with their own emotions and no-one elses?

Yeah. 2's line of integration is actually 4 when the person is becoming healthier, they'll utilize the positive traits of healthy 4s (in a 2ish manner), where they'll become more self-aware and nurturing of their own emotions and boundaries. (Though I would not call this being selfish but rather being more balanced)

 

[Mark R]

Not entirely true. It would depend on the expected level of reciprocation.

If I only give out of my surplus, then this is no problem. But when my resources are low, I too need to be fed. Just some acknowledgment or reciprocated personal interest would be very valuable to me. Then I can continue. Of course, I can be refreshed from another source, but to be known as someone who was helpful is a great feeling.

I wasn't referring to customs that are commonly accepted, like employment with pay or businesses selling items for profit. When someone needs to get paid for anything they provide, they need to act honestly. However, type twos often make private, one-sided agreements people have with themselves over what they anticipate from others. It's what you expect someone to do without actually telling them, whether it's because of something you're doing for them or because of what you anticipate from a relationship. A covert contract is the name for this kind of arrangement.

 

[secondpassing]

I wasn't referring to customs that are commonly accepted, like employment with pay or businesses selling items for profit. When someone needs to get paid for anything they provide, they need to act honestly. However, type twos often make private, one-sided agreements people have with themselves over what they anticipate from others. It's what you expect someone to do without actually telling them, whether it's because of something you're doing for them or because of what you anticipate from a relationship. A covert contract is the name for this kind of arrangement.

You're a 2 right? Can you please give me an example?

 

[Mark R]

You're a 2 right? Can you please give me an example?

A covert contract is an unspoken or implicit agreement that one person makes with another, where they expect a specific outcome or behavior in return for their actions, even though they never explicitly communicate their expectations. It is better to have no expectations, or at least clearly communicate expectation if you do.

I might make my wife a pie, or do some extra chores, expecting my wife to cuddle with me later. If she doesn't cuddle with me, then I might resent her for it. Note that I never told her that I expected this from her in response. I have an unspoken expectation that my wife will cuddle with me later as a response to these actions. When she doesn't fulfill this unspoken expectation, I may feel resentful, even though my wife was unaware of the contract they had in mind.

To address this, it is healthier and more effective to communicate openly and honestly with one's partner about desires and expectations. Instead of relying on covert contracts, expressing one's needs and wishes explicitly allows for better understanding and avoids misunderstandings or unmet expectations. Saying something like, "I'll clear the table and do the dishes, but I would really appreciate it if you could cuddle with me later," fosters open communication and creates a clearer understanding between partners.

 

[secondpassing]

A covert contract is an unspoken or implicit agreement that one person makes with another, where they expect a specific outcome or behavior in return for their actions, even though they never explicitly communicate their expectations. It is better to have no expectations, or at least clearly communicate expectation if you do.

I might make my wife a pie, or do some extra chores, expecting my wife to cuddle with me later. If she doesn't cuddle with me, then I might resent her for it. Note that I never told her that I expected this from her in response. I have an unspoken expectation that my wife will cuddle with me later as a response to these actions. When she doesn't fulfill this unspoken expectation, I may feel resentful, even though my wife was unaware of the contract they had in mind.

To address this, it is healthier and more effective to communicate openly and honestly with one's partner about desires and expectations. Instead of relying on covert contracts, expressing one's needs and wishes explicitly allows for better understanding and avoids misunderstandings or unmet expectations. Saying something like, "I'll clear the table and do the dishes, but I would really appreciate it if you could cuddle with me later," fosters open communication and creates a clearer understanding between partners.

Thanks for the example.

Not sure if all 2s create covert contracts, and I'm not exactly sure how it ties in with what they want. I'm still thinking that through. It didn't have to specifically be cuddling right? Maybe it didn't even need to be physical? If we made it abstract (well, if you accepted something else) you just wanted affection? Like if she gave you a kiss, prolonged but spread out hugs, or made you a pie, you probably wouldn't have been disappointed?

Therefore the contract could be rewritten as: I make you pie, show me affection.

And then if we think about why you made her a pie in the first place, it could be re-rewritten as: I show you affection, show me affection. To me, that doesn't look all that unreasonable, nor does it look very selfish. But perhaps I've abstracted that too far.

 

[WickerDeer]

Title says it all. Can two's appear four-like in how they are concerned with their own emotions and no-one elses?

My ex is a Two so I have a negative bias. He also probably has a personality disorder in the Cluster B, so take all this with a lot of grains of salt.

But my understanding is that Twos can have a hard time communicating their boundaries and needs.

This can result in pretty mal-adaptive ways to get their needs met, which can be pretty destructive to others, which is why I would say "yes."

Because whereas someone accepting their own needs might healthily negotiate them, someone who denies their own needs or wants may pursue covert, or even exploitative or coersive methods of securing their own needs and wants (because everyone has needs and needs to get them met). So Twos can actually be pretty horrible at unhealthy levels, in my experience.

Same thing with boundaries--but I may be confusing Fe with E2 since my ex is both Fe dom and E2 as far as I know.

My old counselor said this "they often try to communicate their needs/wants by GIVING what they want other people to give them." This is of course full of problems, because I personally don't operate in a ridiculous transactional way. It really didn't work well to me.

My ex is very selfish imo, but also comes off as a very friendly person when he wants to, and very generous when he wants, even though he is actually much stingier than most other people I know. But also, my ex likely has a personality disorder which affects this. I can see how my ex could be very generous when healthy because he has that capacity, but the problem is that unless he can healthily negotiate his needs and boundaries, he cannot be genuinely generous because it's always for the purpose of getting things that people don't agree to give (because no negotiation ever took place since he doesn't want to acknowledge having needs or boundaries in the first place (and so also shames others for acknowledging, or having assertiveness, because he feels deep shame within himself for having needs and wants).

The work for a Two can be to accept they have needs and wants, work on understanding and accepting that--focusing inward instead of outward (both with generosity and with scrutiny) and learning how to prioritize their own boundaries and needs and wants in a way that's healthy, fair, and agreeable for everyone.

 

[WickerDeer]

A covert contract is an unspoken or implicit agreement that one person makes with another, where they expect a specific outcome or behavior in return for their actions, even though they never explicitly communicate their expectations. It is better to have no expectations, or at least clearly communicate expectation if you do.

I might make my wife a pie, or do some extra chores, expecting my wife to cuddle with me later. If she doesn't cuddle with me, then I might resent her for it. Note that I never told her that I expected this from her in response. I have an unspoken expectation that my wife will cuddle with me later as a response to these actions. When she doesn't fulfill this unspoken expectation, I may feel resentful, even though my wife was unaware of the contract they had in mind.

To address this, it is healthier and more effective to communicate openly and honestly with one's partner about desires and expectations. Instead of relying on covert contracts, expressing one's needs and wishes explicitly allows for better understanding and avoids misunderstandings or unmet expectations. Saying something like, "I'll clear the table and do the dishes, but I would really appreciate it if you could cuddle with me later," fosters open communication and creates a clearer understanding between partners.

Wow @Mark R what a great explanation! Thanks for sharing.

Yes, this is so similar to what my counselor said to me about it.

Negotiating needs, wants, and boundaries can be so hard for Twos and maybe even Fe doms--like how do you negotiate your needs if you don't even acknowledge your needs' existance?

I think that's the problem of E2 in unhealthy levels--they may be so out of touch with themselves that they can't even admit to themselves they have needs. They are so focused on others' needs. On the surface, this might appear noble or generous, but it creates a lot of problems because, as you know, everyone has needs--even E2 types.

So E2 can even have trouble with seeing or understanding they have needs, even while unconsciously trying to get them met--or boundaries.

That's why trying to do E4 stuff can be really helpful--introspection and understanding and accepting those shameful desires, needs, and wants, and even boundaries.

I think that's why E4 is the integration direction, because E4 are acutely aware of their own inner workings and emotions, feelings, boundaries etc. And it seems like Twos have somehow internalized the idea that they should be ashamed of having needs or boundaries to the point that they can't even acknowledge them?

Or perhaps that's just my personality disordered Fe-dom ex.

Thanks for sharing Mark!

Now I wonder if some of the conflict I've started with you in the past was due to you being the same Enneagram as my ex, even though I didn't think about that or realize it.

 

[Mark R]

@secondpassing Every type can be selfish. I used the cuddling example because type 2s have a tendency to be junkies for touch.
@WickerDeer Thanks! I've learned to ask for my needs, but I've also never had a partner willing to make the smallest compromise. Yes, there is a feeling of shame with having needs.