I know one ESTJ and one ISTJ and they are very different. ESTJ I know is very talkative, charismatic. ISTJ is calm and reserved. ISTJ I know has problems with making friends, ESTJ is very friendly and doesn't have this kind of problem.

 

Interesting. I was contemplating the definition of extroversion in terms of typology. Some people believe it's more related to social extroversion, which is what you are describing, while others believe it should strictly be external stimuli related, not pigeonholed into only social extroversion. Meaning the latter of the two suggests there could exist an Extrovert that isn't interested in people and doesn't make a lot of acquaintances, yet is very focused on the outer world. That was one of the reasons I contemplated the differences between ESTJ and ISTJ, which might or might not have a distinguishing factor of social extroversion.

Personally, I speak up a lot at work when problems need to be resolved and I have a strong opinion on how to do it (which is often), but I don't do this much at all outside of work. Mostly because outside of work, there isn't a need to exert any kind of dominance or voice to achieve anything. I don't really depend on doing this to obtain anything important with family, friends or strangers, so there isn't a need to voice any opinions. Most of the time, I'm pretty quiet and easy going with whatever the crowd wants outside of work. I was wondering if any ISTJs/ESTJs (or anybody knows of these people) that behave like this as well. Particularly whether this is Te taking the lead in situations where Si+Te found an inconsistency with what others say, and since Te is front and center, it could be ESTJ seeming, or if real ESTJs are even moreso in your face.

 

ISTJ's are calm but kinda stern and like what "DoNotKnown" said, it's hard to make friend with them. ISTJ's are soldiers and good listeners.
ESTJ's are angry (like commanders), but it's easier to make friends with them. ESTJ's are commanders and good speakers.

Remember, extraverted people are social, energetic and they show their feelings, while introverted people aren't so and they don't show their feelings.

 

ISTJ: More calculated, analytical, patient, thorough, loyal, dependable, savvy, book smarts, knowledgeable, observant

ESTJ: More bold, fearless, take charge, adaptable, defiant, gregarious, social, visionary, ambitious, non-apologetic

 

ESTJ more hasty in making judgments, tend to be bossy and try to force "the way it should be" according to them.
ISTJ usually more pessimistic, ESTJ more optimistic.


AS for "good listener". It depends. Only if we really want to hear from you. More often than not it will be listening but mind wondering "why the hell do you tell me that and what i am supposed to do with that".

 

the posts here have been useful for me

thank you erc3:

 

Not sure in what. You are not any kind of TJ type.
Also ISJ doesn't make sense considering how you keep swapping your usernames.
" admin change my name to x" a bit later .. " i changed me mind, change to y". Kinda suggest a P type with that, but you keep coming back to original so it is confusing, ESJ maybe .

 

Ì only know 1 ISTJ I can compare myself with. I don't think we're very similar especially around close friends.
I think I'm more interested in starting a conversation and often unwilling to drop it. He can just let it be knowing he's right, I have to keep arguing. Communication in relationships and generally in life I find is extremely important, he doesn't. I am a bit more arrogant (?maybe not the perfect word choice?) and I care more what people think. He really couldn't care less I believe (I don't care an awful lot either... just more than him).

I agree with ESTJ being quite non apologetic.
I disagree with ESTJ being more optimistic. Really depends on the situation.

But this could always just be a personal trait i of course can't speak for all ESTJs. No one can.

 

I would like to add the following triviality to the other posts that listed traits; these are just tendencies and an ISTJ could have some of the traits listed for ESTJ and vice versa... Especially for ambiverts. (I am one)




Sounds like it would be fun to do some argument with you - as long as it has a point. : p

I would say I am very different from you though in that in real life I do not initiate convos let alone arguments, except sometimes with close people if I see a point to it. But even there, others can start them more often... I do relate to not dropping it though, I want to stand my ground more than that.

Agreed, communication is important but I am female, that could definitely play into it. I am not very verbal compared to the average woman but guys are even less verbal than me esp if introverted yeah. My ISTJ friend (male) still does somewhat find communication important but he can be a wall far more than I am, much like you said about ISTJs being content simply with knowing they are right... When I once did manage to get him involved in an argument/debate I really loved that heh. I liked seeing that he would actually engage, it was fun. Also, whenever we meet, the task of keeping up the convo falls to me - because I feel like it would be too awkward to have too much silence. And so yeah I try hard at this task, this however is very uncomfortable to me.

Generally speaking, the ISTJ is a softer and quieter version of the ESTJ.

ISTJs tend to be more introspective, less insensitive, and they 100% think before they speak, all things ESTJs can struggle with. From what I’ve heard, ESTJs are driven by action and being in control and getting things done whereas ISTJs thrive on planning, working hard and a careful, step by step approach for everything. ESTJs don’t necessarily need a lot of time to make decisions, but the ISTJ does; they prefer to make most decisions in advance rather than on the spot. This naturally makes ESTJs better at things like thinking on their feet, adaptability, and quick problem solving, plus having Ne in the tertiary position certainly helps. That said, due to ISTJs tertiary Fi, they are more in touch with their emotions (compared to ESTJs) and they are less likely to be ashamed of their feelings or being emotional in general, if that makes sense. ESTJs, however, get a bad rap when it comes to emotions, because of Fi being their inferior function and a generally negative attitude towards them. Much like other types with inferior Fi or Fe, they just don’t like emotions or expressing emotion.

Hope this was helpful!

Heh, well, common trope about ISTJ is that they are terrible at expressing emotion. This definitely fits my ISTJ friend, esp with my friend being a guy.

STJs seem to have this thing with control.

ESTJs are more concerned with the collective so this is why when they are less healthy they try to control people to behave in a specific way.

ESTJs are more aware of groups and are more aware of what can be accomplished if we all work/behave in a certain way. For example the ten commandments were created by an ESTJ or ESTJs to control people.

ISTJs seem to be a little more selfish, so they are not as concerned with groups of people as they are with controlling their own lives.

I would say this is a good distinction. (lol about ten commandments tho', idk)


Also @Sela made good ones, I agree with how ESTJ is more the boss, and ISTJ is more take care of the details. I personally can switch but that Te stuffz is my secondary mode.

Also, my ISTJ friend (the one mentioned above), before he got old and retired, had a pretty high power position at work. But I imagine he was still obviously more measured than just outright bossy in that energetic way for commanding others. I just can't imagine him being expansive and extraverted, lol. More like a reserved dictator, at best.

Tbh despite the fact he retired, he still works 250+ hours a month. Just not as a boss of anyone anymore. ISTJ and workaholism ..... is a big problem for many ISTJs I think. Without them wanting to recognise that it's workaholism to work that many hours every day/week/month : p

I think ESTJs want to rule others, and ISTJs want to live according to their "inner dictator".

The inner dictator does end up influencing others somewhat indirectly, somewhat directly, on a closer range. :straight face:

 

STJs seem to have this thing with control.

ESTJs are more concerned with the collective so this is why when they are less healthy they try to control people to behave in a specific way.

ESTJs are more aware of groups and are more aware of what can be accomplished if we all work/behave in a certain way. For example the ten commandments were created by an ESTJ or ESTJs to control people.


ISTJs seem to be a little more selfish, so they are not as concerned with groups of people as they are with controlling their own lives.

 

For example the ten commandments were created by an ESTJ or ESTJs to control people.

What? Were you there? Oh by the way God... are you an ESTJ? :laughing:

 

Religion, culture, tradition is pretty squarely Fe (EFJ) domain. Disagree with any correlation between Te and religion - especially modern era.

Makes a little since that certain philosophers who tried to create a more rational based religion as opposed to blind Faith version may have been Ts. Blind Faith and Ti and Te just really don't go together.

TJ control is almost never irrational and honestly speaking even through the lens of primitive man, I find it very possible that those who refuted the claims of the Prophets were the Ts ... Find it unlikely that the Ts would be creating religion.

Social Darwinism = Te however.

 

Here are some ISTJ profiles:
https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/281-ISTp-The-Craftsman-profile-by-Gulenko
https://www.the16types.info/vbullet...ulletin/content.php/297-SLI-(ISTp)-Socionics-Type-Description-by-Stratiyevskaya
Wikisocion SLI composite - Wikisocion

And here are the ESTJs:
https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/321-ESTj-The-Administrator-profile-by-Gulenko
https://www.the16types.info/vbullet...ulletin/content.php/294-LSE-(ESTj)-Socionics-Type-Description-by-Stratiyevskaya
Wikisocion LSE composite - Wikisocion

 

I think ESTJs want to rule others, and ISTJs want to live according to their "inner dictator".

 

Not so much about "ruling" others; they want to control their external environment, which happens to include other people.

 

Yeah, it happens just by chance, a little little chance. Collateral damage...

 

Generally speaking, the ISTJ is a softer and quieter version of the ESTJ.

ISTJs tend to be more introspective, less insensitive, and they 100% think before they speak, all things ESTJs can struggle with. From what I’ve heard, ESTJs are driven by action and being in control and getting things done whereas ISTJs thrive on planning, working hard and a careful, step by step approach for everything. ESTJs don’t necessarily need a lot of time to make decisions, but the ISTJ does; they prefer to make most decisions in advance rather than on the spot. This naturally makes ESTJs better at things like thinking on their feet, adaptability, and quick problem solving, plus having Ne in the tertiary position certainly helps. That said, due to ISTJs tertiary Fi, they are more in touch with their emotions (compared to ESTJs) and they are less likely to be ashamed of their feelings or being emotional in general, if that makes sense. ESTJs, however, get a bad rap when it comes to emotions, because of Fi being their inferior function and a generally negative attitude towards them. Much like other types with inferior Fi or Fe, they just don’t like emotions or expressing emotion.

Hope this was helpful!

 

/puts ISTJ card in safe-deposit box/

Grizz contacted me out of the blue today and the conversation went like this:

Grizz: If we (by we I mean he and his children) go to the rink later, would you like for me to let you know?
Me: No.
Me: /realizes his extremely sensitive teenage daughter is probably reading as well, and I see her there every week/
Me: I have a prior commitment. Thank you for asking, though.

My prior commitment? Accounting of my bank balance to my Excel spreadsheet and laundry. I turned down a new acquaintance last night (gave her notice yesterday morning, i.e., plenty of time to spare) and I'm not about to NOT go on a Friday night (which I like) to turn around and go on Saturday night (which I dislike) without asking her if she wants to go (which I won't do last-minute) and ESPECIALLY not. with. Grizz.

 

I was the first person in the office this morning in my department. Heard ESTJ coming up the stairs, but he "morning'ed" me JUST before he passed by my door. I returned the greeting and said, "How are you?" (whoever returns the greeting is the one that has to ask first, don't ask why)

Him: Today is going to ... (unintelligible, still going towards his office)
Me: What? I didn't hear that last. (goes into the hallway)
Him: Today is going to suck.
Me: ... because of the last-minute teaching bail?
Him: Yes, we're down to the phone candidates now.
Me: At this point, we're going to have to do overloads for faculty, no one is going to move with less than a week's notice to teach for 40k for one year.
Him: Exactly. Which is why it's...
Me: ... gonna suck. I'll find the overload forms so we'll be ready.

 

ISTJs -> Somehow an impressive amount of ISTJs have made it into my inner circle of friends. I like them, and they probably tolerate me.

ESTJs-> I have difficulty getting friendly with, because we tend to rub each other the wrong way.

 

Why do you believe this is so?

 

.

 

Most people are really only good at their first two functions and their fifth and sixth. Extrovert and introverts with all the same functions just the I and the E switched have the same strengths. However, there is some difference.

ESTJ love to indulge in their Ne meanwhile ISTJ hate. ISTJ enjoy Fi meanwhile ESTJ detest the function. ESTJ care more about Ti than ISTJs do. ISTJs care more about Se than ESTJs do.

 

Another example of the slight but noticeable differences:

ESTJ: Please go on the hopeless task of finding me an alternative to Room X (literally anywhere).
Me: Room Y and it’s in the system now as well.
ESTJ: Do whatever needs to be done to make the course available in (proprietary system)
Me: Follow-up email from telephone conversation with Joe Schmo. He needs your written approval to the address in the header.
ESTJ: Joe Schmo, please do this.

To me at least, here are the differences:
1. Acknowledging that it probably is hopeless, but expecting it nonetheless.
2. Referring to it as a task.
3. Get it done by whatever means necessary.
4. Telling Joe Schmo to do it without unnecessary repetition (full email string was included with request at the top).
i.e., "this is what needs done, do it"

... and on my end:
1. Getting it done (I admittedly called in some favors and pulled a few strings to make it happen)
2. HOUR-long phone call with Joe Schmo (and some name-dropping)
i.e., "all details are taken care of and problem is solved"

 

Email from ESTJ: I'm home from the ER for (non-life threatening but painful condition). Please subtract 4 hours from my balance of 1.6 million. You have my cell.
Now imagine this being said in-person with a completely straight face, and you get the idea. He knew I would be concerned, but would never voice it, so he jumped the gun and provided the humor first.
Monday morning I'll pay him a visit in his office and my end of the conversation will go something like this:
"I'm glad to see that you're feeling better, but you actually only have - or HAD - 1824 hours of sick time to draw from...
tl; dr: We both have a dry sense of humor, but mine is a bit more subtle, at least in my own opinion.

 

Without going all-out tl; dr:, that sounds about right, although I've been known to push to get my way if the choice is something that I absolutely can't stand.

Having said that, I have to admit that Supervisor #5 (ESTJ) has been a HUGE influence on my professional development and it's bled over into my personal business at times as well. I've made some leaps that I would NEVER have done otherwise (i.e., pursued staff leadership positions at work).

It's difficult and extremely exhausting to put myself out there constantly, but I suspect that it will be worth it.

Also, my ESTP (friend? cohort? TMI person?) has forced me to be much more social at the rink.

Between these two, I've talked to more people in three years than I probably talked to in the combined 20 years before that.

HTH

 

Without going all-out tl; dr:, that sounds about right, although I've been known to push to get my way if the choice is something that I absolutely can't stand.

Yeah I push like that too. Otherwise not pushing too much, just simply taking part in the process of deciding I guess. That is what I meant by influence, just that basic thing. Not simply standing aside and letting things decided without me when it affects me too (what I will eat, where - in the example). So it's not about getting my way necessarily, just simply taking part in the process. Ok well ofc hopefully without being too disadvantaged, so to speak.

Having said that, I have to admit that Supervisor #5 (ESTJ) has been a HUGE influence on my professional development and it's bled over into my personal business at times as well. I've made some leaps that I would NEVER have done otherwise (i.e., pursued staff leadership positions at work).

It's difficult and extremely exhausting to put myself out there constantly, but I suspect that it will be worth it.

Also, my ESTP (friend? cohort? TMI person?) has forced me to be much more social at the rink.

Between these two, I've talked to more people in three years than I probably talked to in the combined 20 years before that.

HTH

This all sounds pretty cool to me. Keep going.

And yeah I get it about it being exhausting, it would be for me too. I do do it when I see the need to, i.e. I will put myself out there and be active at times, but the whole ESTx influence, I haven't had that in my life this much, so while I did figure out some new goals for myself where I will have to make "leaps", I will be slower at it on my own - but I will have to get there.

 

This is based on my real life experiences but I've met a lot of xSTJs in my life. There is a big difference between ESTJ vs. ISTJ imo. There's also a significant difference between the genders as well so I will take that into account.

xSTJs are some of my favorite types so please don't be offended by what I say. These are merely my observations based on acquaintances, friends and blood relation.

Main difference between ESTJ and ISTJ as a whole...

• The ESTJ has tertiary Ne so it's extremely prominent compared to ISTJ. ISTJ can come off especially more rigid and stubborn in whatever they've already decided.
• ESTJs if given a rational enough answer, are more than happy to change and take your opinions into account. ESTJs are a lot more "out there," charismatic and friendly.
• ISTJ prefer to work or enjoy solitary activities by themselves and with closed ones. ESTJ are more likely to say yes to a spontaneous adventure with me.

ISTJ Women:

• ISTJ women are not all that playful. My jokes and sarcasm easily goes through their heads as they take everything literally.
• Of all the types, I have to explain to ISTJ women the most that I was just joking or they continue to give me the stink eye lol.
• Most ISTJ women think they're ISTPs. This is because ISTPs are also introverted and straight trouble shooters which ISTJ women often are themselves. They also love the Se function and try to relate to it a lot.
• ISTJ women are more blunt and outspoken than ISTJ men. ISTJ men are tad bit more gentle with their words.

ISTJ Men:

• ISTJ men often mistype as ESTP. This is because ESTP is their shadow and like ISTJ women, ISTJ men greatly relate to the Se function.
• ISTJ men are more playful and love to crack jokes in social settings.
• ISTJ men are more "charming" than ISTJ women in a crowd. My ISTJ uncle used to be a ladies' man in his past.

ESTJ Women:

• ESTJ women have more of that "alpha" vibe than ESTJ men. They need to be in control and they like being the queen. Significantly more competitive for good or bad.
• ESTJ women are much louder than ESTJ men. Like Pe doms, they can be seen at the clubs and dancing it out.
• Love taking the sexy role similar to xSTP women.
• ESTJ women are more directive.

ESTJ Men:

• ESTJ men are more family oriented than ESTJ women. They're likely to play the gentle, fatherly role and like to cater to their spouses and family.
• ESTJ men like playing the group harmonizer similar to Fe users. They easily take a leadership position and love bringing people together if that is what will be efficient and make everyone satisfied.
• ESTJ men are slightly lazier and relaxed than ESTJ women. ESTJ women are the classic "work hard play hard."
• ESTJ men work hard too, but they like to relax and play more than ESTJ women.

 

@Katie Tran hm interesting, what do you think makes the STJ women *look* different from the STJ men like this? Easier for the men to conform with the expectations gender-wise, yeah?

PS: I would say what you described applies to me pretty well (for the ISTJ women). Tho' I actually pick up on some sarcasm, I prefer irony though.

 

@Katie Tran hm interesting, what do you think makes the STJ women *look* different from the STJ men like this? Easier for the men to conform with the expectations gender-wise, yeah?

I think so.

The xSTJ women I've met have always felt the need to display a stronger personality because of their gender and our "positions" in the world. They hate the idea of not being in control because of their sex so they tend to "overcompensate;" Especially in the work force.

As someone who shares the same functions as you guys, I understand and empathize. Sometimes, I find myself unconsciously doing the same thing. Especially when I'm Te-Ne looping.

 

I do relate to the overcompensation due to expected gender roles for both socially accepted masculine traits and feminine traits. At work, I feel like I have to showcase my assertiveness more sometimes, because unfortunately, we still have some pig dog mysognists that treat women (Asian women at that) like submissive secretaries. I've literally had this old man at work say things that directly pointed at me being like his personal assistant (which I am definitely NOT). So, I have always overcompensated by achieving more and more to a point where I feel safe and structured in my own standing. Even to a point where if he was to ever test me on actual skill, I'd show him who the real assistant really is. Not that there is anything wrong with being an assistant (I mean no harm by this), just the way he used it in such a condescending manner boiled my blood.

In feelings, I sometimes feel the need to overcompensate with female friends. I have to force myself to seem more enthusiastic, helpful and lady like. Mostly at social gatherings. This is why I mostly avoid parties and large gatherings. I can be myself around my inner circle and not worry about things like that.

 

I do relate to the overcompensation due to expected gender roles for both socially accepted masculine traits and feminine traits. At work, I feel like I have to showcase my assertiveness more sometimes, because unfortunately, we still have some pig dog mysognists that treat women (Asian women at that) like submissive secretaries. I've literally had this old man at work say things that directly pointed at me being like his personal assistant (which I am definitely NOT). So, I have always overcompensated by achieving more and more to a point where I feel safe and structured in my own standing. Even to a point where if he was to ever test me on actual skill, I'd show him who the real assistant really is. Not that there is anything wrong with being an assistant (I mean no harm by this), just the way he used it in such a condescending manner boiled my blood.

What did the guy say for example?

In feelings, I sometimes feel the need to overcompensate with female friends. I have to force myself to seem more enthusiastic, helpful and lady like. Mostly at social gatherings. This is why I mostly avoid parties and large gatherings. I can be myself around my inner circle and not worry about things like that.

Hmm .... Whatever it is I force on myself too much sometimes for feminine behaviour, that's done in a more introverted manner for me if that makes sense. So not by trying to look enthusiastic but like by trying to look at nice and passiveish accepting almost "nurturing" or whatever. The lady-like part in an introverted form actually isn't too hard though as long as it's not the too terribly passive-accepting-"nurturing" thingy. I mean I'm good with behaving socially conscientious, showing polite manners, holding myself nicely, dressing properly, and whatever for the social occasion. That part is easy enough. But when it comes to pretending to have that touchy-feely attitude of actually passive and accepting feelings, I don't like that too much .... Easier for me to do a polite, nice but slightly mechanical smile apparently than to do a truly deeply warm smile of kindness and acceptance or whatever.

With female friends.... I only like to meet friends with who I'm able to genuinely enjoy the time spent together, so that I'm genuinely involved, and then maybe I show even enthusiasm a bit here and there yeah. It's not about forcing or faking any of that to me. If I was to fake it, I would not be interested whatsoever. I have no need to overcompensate in that area. Only in that introverted way as above.

 

I'm basically not patient and prudent enough to be ISTJ