Ok, so this guy is now youtube famous for his murders. One thing that really disturbed me was how I could relate to his dark thoughts, once upon a time when I was very unstable.
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Of course they can. They're still human beings. Your mistake is thinking that sanity vs. insanity is a dichotomy rather than a continuum. Everyone has some degree of insanity and some sort of maladaptive behavior patterns. Where we choose to draw the line between "normal" and "disorder" is kind of arbitrary.
Not an expert at all but the notion that type is something only perfectly healthy people possess is basically incorrect. It's a fairly arbitrary concept (simply by means of categorisation), a way of perceiving personality, notsomuch a practical construct. Not to disparage typology (hey, I'm here) but drawing lines with it is pretty redundant because personality is an infinitely variable idea.
One of the main taught definitions of psychological abnormality is deviation from ideal mental health. While typology is chiefly designed around people in good mental health for obvious reasons, the classic problem with that particular definition is that, in fact, there is likely not a single person alive who fully meets the standard of 'ideal mental health', or at least never persistently. To say that someone who fills a diagnosis of a personality disorder cannot be typed by virtue of not meeting ideal mental health standards, really applies (although not to such an extreme) to pretty much everyone - drawing a line is therefore entirely arbitrary. Everyone has a personality. Everyone therefore, theoretically, has a type, confounding variables be damned.
The chief problem with trying to type anyone who deviates from 'ideal mental health' is that correct observations are harder to make because behaviour is likely to be distorted. That's not to say that no-one with any disorder can have a type; it's just potentially much harder to observe and the system of observations itself may not be applicable. But this is potentially a problem for anyone, it just doesn't tend to be quite so much.
'Personality disorder' is an arbitrary categorisation in itself anyway. Whether you have one or not depends on how many tickboxes someone thinks you fill in the DSM-V or ICD-10, which does not necessarily have any bearing on whether anything is wrong or to what degree. That's convenient and useful for clinical purposes, but is essentially crap. Multiple things were evidently severely wrong; I question the point of trying to see which label best sticks to him, especially on the internet.
I like your answer. You gave the question a proper thinking through. You said some of the things I was thinking and I agree with the way you analyzed this.
As far as categorizing people goes, it has it's flaws but it's the only process for understanding the complexity of people and organizing any approach to dealing with them should we decide we need to.
One of the biggest concerns is psychopathology. There are people who can present a completely different face to the world from who they really are and that may include how they write a letter. It suggests that to try and type them is difficult if not impossible from the little we can know.
In general, I merely wondered, if test results given to a person capable of blanketing their true selves would produce multiple results on different days. I think that it would, but i didn't know if there was someone on the forum with a more educated answer about this.
He seems way too narcissistic and materialistic to be INFP.. He had Aspergers which is most common in INTJ & ISTJ MBTI types. Both are very inflexible in their perspective of what they deserve, and what(they think) is expected. Also are both very good premeditators- which Elliot Morgan was: he planned this weeks in advance.
Elliot Rodgers has the following characteristics: (After reading his manifesto and watching his you tube channel- I'm not sure if it's still there)
-narcissistic
-anti-social, or very lonely
-tendency to rant
-very strong sense of what is right or wrong (according to him: women not 'falling all over him' is a "horrific injustice"
-desire to be a part of the 'norm'. Basically, everyone gets one, I should too.
-Likes asthetically pleasing things: cars, clothes,
-A bit antisocial. His friend Andi Chan said 'Elliot was a lonely guy'.
-Chan also said he liked to rant about injustices done to him.
A lot of these characteristics could work for both types, the main reason I think he is an ISTJ is that he felt he had to carry this out. He talked in his manifesto about how the police almost found out, and how he was glad that they didn't-otherwise he wouldn't have been able to carry out his plan. ISTJ's believe: if you've said you’ll do something then it's akin to a contract and you should fulfill that.
Elliot Rodgers has the following characteristics: (After reading his manifesto and watching his you tube channel- I'm not sure if it's still there)
-narcissistic
-anti-social, or very lonely
-tendency to rant
-very strong sense of what is right or wrong (according to him: women not 'falling all over him' is a "horrific injustice"
-desire to be a part of the 'norm'. Basically, everyone gets one, I should too.
-Likes asthetically pleasing things: cars, clothes,
-A bit antisocial. His friend Andi Chan said 'Elliot was a lonely guy'.
-Chan also said he liked to rant about injustices done to him.
A lot of these characteristics could work for both types, the main reason I think he is an ISTJ is that he felt he had to carry this out. He talked in his manifesto about how the police almost found out, and how he was glad that they didn't-otherwise he wouldn't have been able to carry out his plan. ISTJ's believe: if you've said you’ll do something then it's akin to a contract and you should fulfill that.
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I see typology systems as more of a guideline or metaphor than actual hard and fast rules. I don't think they're necessarily any more inaccurate than anything else in psychology. Psychology is all a huge approximation, including the drugs that they use to treat people. I think that Enneagram and MBTI if anything can help people understand why they have the limitations and bad behavior patterns that they have.
Plus honestly I see it as a bit insulting that people are saying "mentally unhealthy" people can't be typed. It's kind of like saying "oh well your mental illness renders you less than human, so you don't even have a personality because you are now defined by your mental illness." People aren't illnesses. They HAVE illnesses. It only serves to reinforce the "us vs. them" mental health stigma, and that's dangerous because it can result in mentally ill people being deprived of their human rights depending on how far it goes (this already happens to some extent).
This is difficult. I can see the arguments for both. He was definitely an image type, but wouldn't a 3 be more proactive? This kid was extremely withdrawn. I always thought the mark of a 4 was not their 'quirkiness' but their deep feelings of otherness which makes them withdraw and seclude themselves. I didn't read his manifesto entirely, but I skimmed, and a lot of the 'rejections' were entirely in his head. He didn't put himself out there because he was so sure he'd be rejected, based on internal feelings. 4s also are often caught between feelings of superiority and inferiority, which can be easily seen in him. A lot of the core ideas of the 4 are there. I could be biased though because I know little about type 3.
Where did you get this? It can't be a fact.
That's what I'm asking you. Is it a personal observation or was there a study done, or where did you get that information? A quick Google search just brings me to forums which aren't reliable sources.
Just...exactly this. Well said. I have great problems with the basic concept of 'normal' as a means of defining psychological health and function but...that's another rant for another time. Personality is the characterisation of individual differences which are everything in attempting to apply psychology in any constructive way at all, like you said, it's no exact science and individual differences can radically alter any of its application.
The idea that 'no, personalities are only for healthy people, thank you' is basically the idea that some textbook written by the pharmaceutical industry can arbitrarily define what you should be like and you're dysfunctional unless you meet all those criteria so in the meantime you're not really a person and can't be viewed as one because you haven't graduated to having a personality. And like you said, any theory of how personality works can provide an interesting perspective on the function of any illness that someone has, which is arguably what the thread is about, even if it doesn't explain anything in itself it's a way of examining thought processes and so on.
The stigma you mentioned is the core of what makes me wary of some of the thread and bits of the relevant news threads. It's a popular pattern to scramble to find some label which fits someone which explains everything away so you can just say 'no, they were mentally ill' and that's that. It solves jack shit and creates a second class of human being; finding a diagnosis which appears to fit doesn't actually explain anything.
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Perhaps this is not related to the topic but is something that has bothered me about certain men.
I don’t understand why some men idolize women in unrealistic ways like if they were beings from another universe (fairies, mystical creatures, angels from above) when they are simply human beings with insecurities, flaws, problems and anxieties just like them. If a woman is strikingly beautiful she has to be perfect. There are also men who admire women with hatred like this individual. He said that pretty women were evil and responsible for his misery.
I can’t stand men who desire women just to validate their masculinity and raise their self-esteem. That is why many women can’t take this type of men seriously and they reject them right away because they sense their intentions. If you want to have a relationship with a woman first of all treat her like a human being, then like a friend and after that you can consider her a potential partner. I don’t know how society has conditioned certain men to think that women are objets for exhibition and sexual gratification.
Another thing. This guy had a sick obsession specifically with blonde women. He didn’t wanted any blonde woman as her partner though. She had to look like a model to have as a trophy. I think that with that way of thinking he was reducing his chances of finding a partner cause he was too focused on looks. Perhaps if he would have broaden his romantic options he would have more luck with women from different ethnicities (latin, asian etc), colors, sizes or simply an average looking blonde girl with a good heart but seems he was too fixated on women who were too shallow or superficial. He was pretty shallow himself so in the end he was the issue If he would have gotten out of that environment and found a college where he did not felt those pressures so strongly he would have been happier but the guy wanted to prove something he was not.
I don’t understand why some men idolize women in unrealistic ways like if they were beings from another universe (fairies, mystical creatures, angels from above) when they are simply human beings with insecurities, flaws, problems and anxieties just like them. If a woman is strikingly beautiful she has to be perfect. There are also men who admire women with hatred like this individual. He said that pretty women were evil and responsible for his misery.
I can’t stand men who desire women just to validate their masculinity and raise their self-esteem. That is why many women can’t take this type of men seriously and they reject them right away because they sense their intentions. If you want to have a relationship with a woman first of all treat her like a human being, then like a friend and after that you can consider her a potential partner. I don’t know how society has conditioned certain men to think that women are objets for exhibition and sexual gratification.
Another thing. This guy had a sick obsession specifically with blonde women. He didn’t wanted any blonde woman as her partner though. She had to look like a model to have as a trophy. I think that with that way of thinking he was reducing his chances of finding a partner cause he was too focused on looks. Perhaps if he would have broaden his romantic options he would have more luck with women from different ethnicities (latin, asian etc), colors, sizes or simply an average looking blonde girl with a good heart but seems he was too fixated on women who were too shallow or superficial. He was pretty shallow himself so in the end he was the issue If he would have gotten out of that environment and found a college where he did not felt those pressures so strongly he would have been happier but the guy wanted to prove something he was not.
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That has way more to do with inferior Se than Si. Si is about building impressions of reality over time to have a sense of what is most "real", but he was seeking to build an image that has immediate impact - much more Se thinking.
Inferior Se, again. He was playing the game he hated because he believed that's how reality works, but he also believed he had more depth than most people. This is pretty typical pull between Ni & Se.
Physical things challenged him & frightened him, from skateboarding to sex (which he was obsessed with getting, but also saw as brutal & animalistic). What we're seeing is inferior sensing, a distortion of sense perception data into something pretty ugly.
This is classically attributed to the INFJ more than any other type.
Enneagram 4 - obsession with past, but poor ability to see the present clearly (devaluing what one has & focusing on what was & was lost & what currently is missing). All of the facts he remembers are those which support is feelings - this is common in INFx types who are not healthy. Just because he recalls many details doesn't mean they are not distorted or that he's not leaving out others. His own writing shows positive things he chooses to ignore in favor of his theories on why his life is supposedly so "miserable" - so he actually has a very poor grasp of factual reality.
He was characterized by envy & melancholy, which is the 4 type. He was focused on what he was lacking that he believed would give him significance & meaning in life (to be loved & wanted by a woman).
People forget that the 4 is an image type - the type is preoccupied with how they appear negatively to others, feeling they are defective as compared to others, and trying to compensate for that in various ways.
Huh? His manifesto is filled with that attitude.
I disagree. I think he believed he couldn't be understood & that he had to adopt a certain image to mean anything to anyone.
His manifesto screams unhealthy 4, but certainly with a 3 wing.
I don't think 4w3s are "out there" & an easy type to identify. I think many of those are 7s mistyped as 4. The 4 is one of the most withdrawn types. Although very withdrawn & prone to isolating himself, he also described himself as acting out negatively to get attention when young, which gave him a rep for being a weirdo & intensified the bullying towards him. Self-sabotage is much more 4w3 than 3w4, and he did a lot of that.
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Thank you. I hate when people make out like we're all just born good or bad apples. Insanity is part of being human.. untangling.. part of being better... part of being human too. obviously not everyone struggles with this as much as others, but still. I thought that's what enneagram & typing was all about?
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God watching some of the vids posted about him or hearing him speak... is so painful. This person is so wounded. And some people on this forum are wounded. some people in this life are so wounded. They're so trapped and caustic and confused how can anyone help them? It seems almost impossible for them to help themselves.
Both.
I think he's an S because (My MBTI Personality Type - MBTI Basics - Sensing or Intuition)
S's remember specific details of events more
Hostility, emotional detachment, and distrust of others is common in both ISTJ's & INTJ's. (ISTJ vs. INTJ | Prelude Character Analysis) xSTJ's tend be less flexible compared to INTJ's. Intuitive in general are a little more laid back in comparison to sensors because sensors live in the here and now. These individuals are overly concerned with rules and orderliness, strive for perfectionism, are highly inflexible, and have a strong desire to be in control of situations. (ISTJ's) (He told his friends several times that he wanted to dominate the world.) It's true that it's way harder to type a mentally ill person, and your personality doesn't always have anything to do with what type of mentally illness you have. Though Introverted Thinkers tend to have the highest IQ's and high IQ's is a characteristic of someone with Aspergers.
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Is it bad that when I read his manifesto I was instantly reminded of many people on PerC?
I don't think I realized how many people in this world are wounded until I became interested in missing and unidentified persons cases. I would say ~70% of the teenage or adult unidentified bodies who are eventually identified, had some type of mental illness and a high-risk lifestyle based on that, and/or an extremely isolated life.
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To me he comes off as an INTP? Internal logic mixed with extraverted intuition and a Fe that he doesn't control too well. He had a strong tendency to reminiscence, so Si as a third function makes sense.
I'd also add that he probably had asperger syndrome along with narcissistic disorder? I thought he'd be an INFP too at some point, but going through the whole manifesto he really does struck me as a T, not an F.
Reading the manifesto was quite an experience, so many little things you can relate to at the start, and then it all unfold into a crazy, violent talk about destruction. He also never really did try to to commit to his objectives (for exemple writing or skateboarding) and he is blaming the outer world all along, crying on his miserable state, when he stuck to stay in Isla Vista despite advices. I hope all the footprints he left will be helpful to understand the problematic behind it all.
I'd also add that he probably had asperger syndrome along with narcissistic disorder? I thought he'd be an INFP too at some point, but going through the whole manifesto he really does struck me as a T, not an F.
Reading the manifesto was quite an experience, so many little things you can relate to at the start, and then it all unfold into a crazy, violent talk about destruction. He also never really did try to to commit to his objectives (for exemple writing or skateboarding) and he is blaming the outer world all along, crying on his miserable state, when he stuck to stay in Isla Vista despite advices. I hope all the footprints he left will be helpful to understand the problematic behind it all.
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I didn't see Ne in what he wrote at all. There was nothing poetic in what he wrote. He didn't use one metaphor the entire time. (I know these are oversimplifications of Ne, but it's the easiest way to tell if someone uses it or not, I think). Like I can think of the way that I would write about social isolation/involuntary celibacy, having gone through it myself, and it would be completely different. I would describe the feelings of it using visceral descriptions that might not make a whole lot of sense for others.
Why do you think he was a T? I think he definitely was an F with weak T abilities. I mean the dude's emotions were out of control. All of the approaches he took to solving his problems were based on his own irrational feelings at the moment, rather than any type of plan. It seemed that with his whole "evil overlord persona" that he was putting on before killing everyone, that he WANTED to be a T.
Also he definitely came off as a J to me rather than P. I mean his whole thing was that he wanted to control people and the world into acting the way he wanted.
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