I'm gonna echo what another user said in a thread similar to this in an INFJ thread I read a while ago - All people are manipulative. How we do it, irrelevant. We manipulate our surroundings, ourselves and each others. It is the connotations we put on said manipulation that matter - the unspoken rules for which it is acceptable versus unacceptable. We've got terms for this - liar, dishonest, etc.

Can NF's have a penchant for being better at directly manipulating people through relation and emotional connection? Yes. Is it such a bad thing? Not at all - it depends on the level of awareness and maturity of said individual. I've met quite a few snakey, negatively manipulative SF's, too. And NT's. Even a couple ST's. Are you harming anyone? Yes? Bad. Are you harming yourself? Yes? Bad. Could this harm anyone? Yes? Bad. Could it harm you? Yes? Bad.

Pretty much that.

 

I'm gonna echo what another user said in a thread similar to this in an INFJ thread I read a while ago - All people are manipulative. How we do it, irrelevant. We manipulate our surroundings, ourselves and each others. It is the connotations we put on said manipulation that matter - the unspoken rules for which it is acceptable versus unacceptable. We've got terms for this - liar, dishonest, etc.

Can NF's have a penchant for being better at directly manipulating people through relation and emotional connection? Yes. Is it such a bad thing? Not at all - it depends on the level of awareness and maturity of said individual. I've met quite a few snakey, negatively manipulative SF's, too. And NT's. Even a couple ST's. Are you harming anyone? Yes? Bad. Are you harming yourself? Yes? Bad. Could this harm anyone? Yes? Bad. Could it harm you? Yes? Bad.

Pretty much that.

The bold part was pretty much my question - when is it OK.

 

Over the years I have seen a lot of discussion on the topic on ENFPs being manipulative, especially between ENTPs and ENFPs.

It seems that when we are young, we can be very manipulative, but it isnt really conscious or planned very well, as a Ti user would plan-we simply mold to the other person, then adapt to fit thier needs and then we sort of shift into thier emotional space-a bit of a probe to develop a feel for what they need? We will actually reach out with Ne and actualy explore ideas, influence others, never really becing conscious of our own motives or needs-it just feels like a scratch to be itched, so to speak, which as we scratch, we influence. There is an interesting innocence to this activity as it isnt pre-mediated, more reflexive in nature...it feels very fluid. We are simply being sweet? It doesnt feel like you are causing hurt or actively trying to make the other person do something-you simply are and they respond to that.

As we get older, we become more aware of the ability to influence and manipulate and different enfps will use this ability in different ways based upon thier values.

I actively influence my customers for instance-I want them to feel secure that I have thier best interest at heart. However it is a sincere, authentic value I hold, thus it is very easy to come across as honest and this works to shift customer perspective. Since I am sincere in my values towards them, and I take action on thier behalf, I am okay influencing them. But I could not consciously manipulate another person in a way that would hurt them or not be in thier best interest-it feels horribly disgusting. Lol, I wouldnt even be any good at it, since it would make me feel bad and I would then come across as hollow or fake.

 

I am okay influencing them.

I would then come across as hollow or fake.

It feels horribly disgusting.

When you are being hollow and fake do you find that this disgusting feeling comes more often in a particular type of situation compared to others?

 

I never use it when I'm aware. If I'm aware I'm going to manipulate someone I simply don't.

 

The only time I manipulate is when I'm working, advertisement & PR the job is manipulation. I'm using my "powers" to sell.
Do I ever manipulate outside of work, not these days no. Because at the end of the day, when I get what I want without detours its valued much more. And I dont ever want to look into the mirror and not like what I see. Growing up I used manipulation and life taught me some wicked lessons. Manipulation is usually a power tool, so even though ENFPs have the power, doesnt mean we need to use it. We don't struggle for power.

 

When I was younger, my manipulation skills definitely could be considered more a subconscious doing than anything else. I would manipulate if I was getting scared of the situation and my self preservation kicked in. However, that doesn't mean that I manipulated well. If anything, manipulation was me struggling to gain control of a situation that kicked all my senses into high gear.

However, I am definitely aware of it now. I'm a marketing and communications major with a psych minor so I have a lot of tacks and formal knowledge to go off of on top of my intuitive feeling abilities if I'm trying to persuade someone. However, I never do it with the intent of ill will. It's my job to highlight the good parts of a product. I never, ever ever try to hoodwink someone. For example, if somebody wants an acne product, I will straight up tell them that they won't find anything that will legitimately help here. I see my manipulation/persuasion skills as disseminating information and almost like editing a paper and thinking on my feet while trying to persuade someone more so than trying to lie to someone in order to get something from them. My thesis paper was on how I disagreed with photoshopping makeup advertisements since it's misleading advertising. (Tangent: I don't think that transparency is the issue with a lot of advertising agencies. They will fully disclose how photoshop is being used or how they will freely objectify women--see Esquire. It's the practice of it that pisses me off).

When I'm depressed or fall into an unhealthy stage, I will go out and try to manipulate people because I am trying to indirectly manipulate myself. I view it as manipulation at that point because I am deliberately trying to get a specific reaction from them. Whenever I do advertising work, I have no clue if what I'm trying to tell the audience will actually resonant with them. Once I'm depressed, it's like all my socializing skills decided to die in a corner. I no longer know how to normally talk to someone. My depressed brain also knows that nobody wants to know about that shit unless they're close to you. So, I'll start paying attention to my body language and monitoring what I say and every other trick in the book so I can deliberately make people laugh or whatever it is normal healthy people do during a conversation. I always feel like I'm having a out-of-body experience every time I do it though. Because I know it's artificial. I know that if I just dropped everything I'm monitoring, they would not be laughing. (At least I hope they wouldn't laugh at someone who is actually really freaking depressed).

It's a lot different from me just slapping myself with a dose of self-confidence if I'm nervous about something or I'm in a job interview and I'm trying to really charm my interviewers. The first situation is solely on myself and is more towards an inanimate object (like a test) and even then I still don't really know what the outcome will be even if I can accurately predict shit 98% of the time. The same goes with interviews. Interviewers have blank faces. I couldn't read them if I tried. I think it's going well and usually I'm right but I still don't know the outcome. Depressed me trying to socialize is very very very deliberate. I will process everything I've read about them and adjust to match them so I can get exactly what is needed out of them (a laugh or whatever) because I don't know how to socialize in this state without actual manipulation.

Yes, I'm aware of my manipulative abilities. Yes, I can be quite heavy handed with it at times. No, I've never really done it with nefarious intents. Even when I'm depressed I'm just trying to step back into my normal shoes and have a convo with someone. Half of the fun in my life comes from unpredictable circumstances and really trying to manipulate every situation is both exhausting (too many details to keep track of) and takes out all the fun of throwing something verbally at someone and seeing how/if they react to it.

 

Only ever use your power of love and light to benefit others and self on the path to balance and harmony

 

So true. You get what you give!

 

Being intuitive feelers you guys are good at being able to manipulate others.

Cheers.

What do you think about this and when would you use it?

i think it's damned useful. I use it to execute my plans for world domination.

Are you always aware that you do?

Always aware? No.
Aware of it when I aim to take over the world? Sure!

 

Cheers.

i think it's damned useful. I use it to execute my plans for world domination.

Always aware? No.
Aware of it when I aim to take over the world? Sure!

I knew it! Will you marry me?!

 

I learned the art of manipulation early growing up in an emotionally abusive home, that manipulation was my defense mechanism. And now as an adult I know when I am doing it and I feel horrible, but even self-awareness/shame doesn't always stop me. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't - usually because at that point I am extremely emotionally vulnerable and that was when I learned to use manipulation in the first place as a defense. I know I have gotten significantly better with therapy, but it does happen, again when I feel vulnerable or scared.

The irony I've learned now is that for people who really do care about you, there's no need to manipulate, but just ask for whatever you need. It's been a tough lesson, but thankfully I have a wonderful boyfriend who is very patient and understanding, and helps call me out when he notices I'm manipulating instead of communicating.

 

Do you think you use manipulate to gain affection? Like to fill a hole created earlier?

 

Deleted. I need to stop analyzing every damn thing and to be less blunt... Sorry for that, no bad intentions.

 

Emotional guilt-tripping is rare, as is strategic scheming. However, we can be pretty persuasive. The tactic is learning how someone thinks/feels and slowly prodding them to explore/expand beyond that.

Also, being charming/charismatic can help smooth over embarrassing fuck-ups we make.

 

What do you think about this and when would you use it? Are you always aware that you do?

Many times it goes like this: I want to get my point across to someone... I see what they think and how they feel... I figure out a way to convey my emotions in a way they will be receptive to (I keep it honest, though)... I eventually receive the response that I desired.

It doesn't mean that I am purposefully being manipulative, it has to do with being strategic in my communication. If I have tried many times to reach someone who isn't understanding, then I become explosive and vent my feelings more so for my sanity then for their understanding if how I feel. When this happens, it's not manipulation at all being as no one really responds well to being yelled at.

I guess my initial strategy comes naturally and works most of the time, many people could see it as manipulation. It's not done in a conniving way at all. When people don't respond positively then the "strategy" goes out the window and I stop caring about having a win-win situation. I'd say this anger and selfishness that comes from not being understood is more hurtful than a perceived manipulation.

 

Yeah, I'm an enneagram 8 hence my interest in avoiding people manipulating me

Starting to go back to 8 from 5 though, which feels great. Don't think I'll be making any more threads about manipulation now, but who knows :laughing:

 

I have definitely manipulated people on my past to serve my long term Fi career agenda. It does feel fake sometimes. But everyone does that stuff to succeed, to an extent. People use what they have. For ENFPs and a INFPs, it's our people skills, and ability to "impress" with our abstract thinking and novel ideas. I can sleep at night because I've never stepped on anyone else to get ahead, or tried to circumvent anyone's free will.

Learning more more and more that the means don't justify the ends, though. By using "dirty" methods, you chip away at your moral foundation, and can lose sight if your original goal. And more importantly, you lose your altruistic motivations, which are ultimately the most important driver for healthy NFs.

 

I am always aware that I can and that it is pretty easy to do so but it goes directly against my moral compass which to me is completely unacceptable.

Edit: Except in the workplace. But nothing nasty like getting someone fired, just moving up the ladder.

 

The word manipulation is usually given a bad connotation. Manipulation is a tool that can be used for good or bad. I can be very manipulative. I know what will get people to respond. This is what makes me good at what I do... well, everything I do, I suppose. I tend to use my manipulation in a positive way though. To use this skill in any other way is just seems so gross and slimy to me. What kind of useless skeeze needs to stoop so low, ya know?

 

I'm good at toying with emotions or scheming people (Which I don't do, bad karma) but I'm not the best at persuading. I feel like that's more of a ESXP thing

 

Ah, that's a key distinction! I bet ESFPs best us in that area because they pick up on so many more nonverbal clues. They're incredibly observant, in the moment. We're more spacey in that respect. Also, they have Se going for them. People with Se voices and body language are SO good at making others "feel" a certain way. And the touchiness... oh, the touchiness!!! :blushed: In my experience Ne doms are usually not that expressive vocally, or good at touching people.

 

When I was younger, I used to manipulate people all the time to get what I wanted. Now, mostly the only time I use it is to escape a certain social situation. If I feel as if I'm being purposely attacked, or I don't feel comfortable with the people/situation, I'll make up some excuse and persuade people to believe that excuse is an actual cause for my leave, when in actuality I just don't feel comfortable.

 

hmm...ok so i don't think im often persuasive, and when i am and succeed at it...i don't feel morally good after..However when it comes to manipulation, it can come out two different ways...first if its selfish manipulation then i feel bad afterwords(i did this more when i was a little kid to try to get my way on things). But nowdays i tend to do the second type of manipulation...basically to try to better the other person...i think back an example of this when i was having to do a speech in speech class and i was talking the shy intj kid next to me about how i was scared of giving speeches, and i was getting him to tell me why speeches really aren't bad.... I was never really scared of speeches but i was getting him to tell himself why the speeches aren't scary outloud which made it alot easier for him to give them. The strange part of all this is that i didn't plan all of this in my head.. I naturally did this and didn't realize what i had done till like months later.