-What are common character flaws for the ESTJ (or any SJ guardian)?

ESTJ's are sensitive people if you think it is a flaw .They don't like being lied to ,cheated ,or betrayed upon.

If an ESTJ wanted to hurt someone, how would they go about it?

If an ESTJ wants to hurt someone I think they can be really cold and detached with that person ,which then forces a feeling of extreme guilt in the other person .I don't think they would choose an evil method of taking revenge on someone .Even in war they would use only fair and honest means to tackle their opponent .

Can an ESTJ go really bad? I mean, like evil?

No,I don't think so, but they can be very temperamental ,cruel and merciless .

 

ESTJ's are sensitive people if you think it is a flaw .They don't like being lied to ,cheated ,or betrayed upon.

If an ESTJ wants to hurt someone I think they can be really cold and detached with that person ,which then forces a feeling of extreme guilt in the other person .I don't think they would choose an evil method of taking revenge on someone .Even in war they would use only fair and honest means to tackle their opponent .

No,I don't think so, but they can be very temperamental ,cruel and merciless .

Yes I am temperamental...I don't see that as evil at all tho lol. I was outright cruel only once in my life. Yeah a major personal wrong was done to me (not the same one I mention in my other post). The wrong done to me was a very damaging one, with tangible consequences. So the person deserved the cruel response. Life has its dark sides yeah. It was so weird seeing that I'm capable of it but I am if I really really really have to. In all other cases if someone thought I was cruel or merciless or humiliating them that was their subjective perception only, and not my intent and not my actual action either. Level of sensitiveness - and ability to rationally override it to not get stuck in the bubble of the emotion but see the real intent - definitely influences the quick subjective perception. It can create a bias.

The extra weirdness is: when I was acting outright cruel like that, I still didn't focus on causing personal hurt to the person. I think this is because I do not respond emotionally to the same myself, I take it as a challenge to respond to.

But I think there are very dark manipulative acts that I see being worse than this. And I don't ever want to do them, unless it's like people's lives literally depend on me doing them or something. In war for example, yeah.

 

ESTJ, as ANY personality type (including ENFP) is capable of doing something evil. I have a feeling that you are asking this because you are having trouble with an ESTJ or for some other reason. Remember this, there are two sides to every story and it could as well be your fault. Before immediately condemning the ESTJ, stop to think of how your actions and behavior may also be hurting the ESTJ. I'm sorry if I sound snappy, now but today I had a fight with my ENFP mother. I am frustrated with her because of her poor planning and foresight and her inability to actually listen to what I am saying without running off some completely unrelated tangent. She has been acting as though I am the bad guy, and she fails to see her own shortcomings.

Since you need to see both sides, I will tell you the flaws I see in both personalities. Maybe that will help you.

ESTJ (possible character flaws. They will all vary from person to person. These are things I have observed and witnessed first hand in myself.)
1. Ability to have sudden and absolutely furious outbursts of rage. We are prone to burying our feelings under a sheet of cold logic. Sometimes those feeling build up and we don't even notice them, until they crack that logic sheet. Then I can just be so angry I have outbursts of fury and I end up hurting myself and others. Even though I am usually a very calm, quiet, and docile person. The thing that usually triggers this, is when I feel like I am being used or that a person is not listening to me or what I have to say. (My ENFP mother always does this). Just saying because you are an ENFP, and it may help for you to know that.
2. We can be pretty unfeeling ourselves. Sometimes I'm not even sure I can feel. As I have said, I have my feelings buried under a sheet of cold logic. I feel them barely. They are just muffled. And sometimes If I do feel something, I am not even sure what I am feeling. This also results in my inability to understand how more emotional types are feeling.
3. I can be a bit too pushy sometimes. If I feel like a person is doing an inadequate job, I will push them to work harder. And they may take it as me being mean or domineering just for fun. Or maybe they don't want to work harder and they are upset with me for trying to make them.
4. We can be really stubborn. I am stubborn as an Ox (Which also happens to be my Chinese Zodiac sign. hahah).
5. I can get annoyed when people constantly repeat themselves or pause a lot when they speak. We value our time highly and inefficient things tend to bother me in general.
6. I hate change. While there are some good changes, change in general tends to be unnecessary and bad. But for some reason a lot of people seem to like it. bleh.

I think the main reason an ESTJ could become an unhealthy one is because a lot of people just don't understand us. Or make an effort to see our side of the story and get along/sympathize with us. This could cause frustration, anger, perfectionism in an ESTJ. I also feel like I am being used or that no one appreciates me often times. That is one of the things that triggers an outburst of rage. And it is probably also one of the main things that makes an ESTJ go mad.

ENFP Character flaws: (As I have observed. And yes, once again it varies from person to person. I am making observations based off my two little sisters, my mothers and some friends at school. All have taken the test except one friend. Also, I am not trying to start anything. I am trying to show you the flip side. How I, as an ESTJ feel about you ENFPs. I feel like so many people just bash and say ESTJs are evil and so bad blah blah blah, but they do not consider their own faults or even try to see our side of the story.)
1. Not generally reliable or trustworthy. I'm sorry, but I do not feel like I can trust or rely on any of the ENFPs I know. It is so hard because they have let me down before, and all over simple tasks. And they seem to have poor planning and foresight abilities.
2. Inability to listen: I'm not saying this is in all ENFPs. It probably is a trait that many other types have, but my mother frustrates me because she does not listen to me. I mean she doesn't hear what I have to say. She interrupts me or just ignores me all the time. Once I was trying to talk to her about something I was really concerned about. Then she interrupted me mid-sentence to ask me about shower curtains!! You have no idea how just how much this angers and disheartens me.
3. Not very selfless. Always seems to expect something in return for doing something nice. I'm not saying I'm a perfect sweet person, but my mother and 3 of my friends at school always seem to have some strings attached. They never normally do nice things for me, but when they want something from me, they will do it then run up to me pouting and say things like "Oh you are such a selfish mean person, I did this (small task for you) why can't you do this? yadda yadda yadda. I am a very generous person. I spend my time, energy, effort and even my own mental sanity sometimes to do things for others. I do not generally expect things in return. But whenever I need and have to say "No" to something, they all act like I am a mean person. Its as though I owe them something. I am a straight A student and at the very top of my college class. Once my ENFP friend was like "I'll throw that paper away for you!" Then she did, and was then like "So, can you help me do research for my paper and maybe edit it a bit?" I had A LOT of things going that week and said that I could not. (Normally I would.)Then she got so mad and said, but I helped you clean up! Oh.. So you only did that to get a favor from me!? Ugh. (I didn't say that to her of course, but it still made me kind of upset.) Shouldn't real friends do that kind of thing and ask nothing back?
5. Has no problem making a foolish or indulgent/selfish decision just because their emotions are getting the better of them. Then I if I try to say "No" to this decision because I know it will hurt and cause problems later, they are like "Oh you want me to feel bad" "you don't love me." *sigh* Just looking out for you on the practical side.

-If an ESTJ wanted to hurt someone, how would they go about it? I imagine an ESTJ would try to hurt someone for the following reasons.
-Hurt or treated one of their friends, family, someone they respected badly.
-Revenge for them stealing an opportunity or something else from them.
-Someone taking credit for their work or just using them.

They would probably try to hurt using these tactics:
-Destroy their reputation.
-Get a higher position than them at work, then use this power to gloat and put them in a bad spot.
-Make personal insults that they know will really hurt.

-Can an ESTJ really go bad?
Any type is capable of doing this. Any person is. I believe so.

I hope I didn't hurt your feeling or do something to offend you on this post. I also hope you gained some valuable insight on it.

 

I hope I didn't hurt your feeling or do something to offend you on this post. I also hope you gained some valuable insight on it.

Thank you thank you! Yes! I am not very easy to unruffle--you are spot on with the way we ENFPs can been rather...er, irresponsible... with the details. I am totally like this. I try really hard to improve myself, and, seriously, I have improved a lot, especially with the help of SJ's in my life--but it doesn't come naturally. I hate cleaning my house. Boring, tedious, arduous... I do it--I know it needs to be done and that I need to be responsible--but it's so contrary to my natural character that it takes a lot of maturity on my part to overcome my reluctance, buckle down, and roll up my sleeves.

Seriously, I am a writer and am interested in this rather depressing topic as a matter of research--nothing personal. I love the SJs in my life, and am well aware that the vast majority of them are mature, well-intentioned, and way more constructive than the fractional minority after whose behavior I am so curious.

I think an ENFP capable of much worse than mere irresponsibility. At our worst, we go mad. We lie and pretend that the lies are true. We use our emotional insight to shred anyone who dares to disagree with us and we are so good at it that we can destroy their soul, if they let us. We embrace borderline personality disorder because we can't face the painful realities in our lives and so we try to pretend them away. If anyone questions our grasp on reality, we lash out at them with all the anger and hatred we hold for ourselves. We go crazy and make sane people believe that we are reasonable, and furthermore, they are the crazy ones. Oh, we can be evil, alright. Some theories peg Hitler as an ENFP (he was an NF, that part is clear). Most of us DON'T go that bad, thank God. Just like most SJ's;-)

I never felt the need to emotionally bully someone into doing my a favor. I don't see that as being something we would do normally. Generally, we have really sensitive consciences and we can't stand doing anything that we know is wrong. That's pretty bad if your ENFP friends are manipulating you into doing their homework. You need to shame them--our consciences are really loud and if we are caught and shamed in the act of doing something dirty like that, we will feel so bad about ourselves that we will never want to do it again.

I find that we tend to go dirty mostly when our moral principles (not all of which will be sound) are questioned or crossed. Then we lose our mind; we become obstinate, hysterical, and emotionally manipulative.

But then, I don't usually have an SJ in my life to lean against. I have an SJ mother-in-law, and I have noticed that when I am with her, I am constantly running after her trying to be helpful... but that I often am a step behind because I got too wrapped up in conversation to notice that she's begun clearing the dishes, making lunch, etc. Maybe she thinks I am taking advantage? I try to thank her and tell her how much I appreciate her...seriously, when I am with her, my life runs way more smoothly.

I find it interesting what you said about SJ's wanting to take revenge for stealing an opportunity from them. I have noticed this tendency before and it strikes me as strange. For instance, I had a SJ friend in high school who got angry at another friend for developing a crush on the guy she liked. She vented her reasoning: "I liked him first!" Had the second girl actually managed to snag the guy, I imagine my friend would have felt utterly betrayed.

Obviously, she was being childish. But then I see similar behavior in certain SJ adults. Say they get passed up for promotion, and the opportunity they wanted was taken instead by someone with less experience, younger, or whom they perceive as being deficient in some quality. Instead of getting angry at the boss who made the decision, they sometimes take out their anger at the person who got the job. Why would they do that? Worse, they sometimes feel like that person actually betrayed them, and thus, inflict "revenge" against this person. This makes no sense to me.

I have also heard that guardians will try to get people whom they don't like fired. It's one thing if the person really is bad for the company. Lazy, irresponsible, wasting money, etc. Then, they just need to point out the obvious. But say it was a personal grudge. Say someone humiliated them publicly, in front of the whole company, and in such explicit terms as to leave no room for doubt. Would they feel tempted to do everything in their means to destroy that person?

And why? Perhaps they would tell themselves that this guy is a jerk, deserves to be fired, because you don't just humiliate your coworker like that, in front of everyone. It was unprofessional and inappropriate. But is that the real reason? Say the guy, despite his disparaging treatment of others, is actually great for the company--providing the company with brilliant strategic insight, saving the company boatloads of money, and guiding the company into a brighter, more successful future.

Could it be that the real reason because they are secretly afraid that the guy's criticisms are valid--that they fear being found deficient, incompetent? And that fear torments them so much that they want to destroy the source of it, no matter at what cost to the company?

And, moreover--how would an SJ do this? How would a very evil SJ get someone fired who ought not be fired? They like playing by the rules, so it's not like they would wait in a dark corner with a knife, or commit a crime that implicates their "enemy." Their revenge would have to be seemingly innocuous. But how?

Sorry--these questions aren't very cheerful. I would love to have your insight though, because it's really important that I can portray my characters accurately. As an author, I have a responsibility to break my characters--to inflict a lot of suffering and hardship on them and see how they handle it. The dark side of NFs, NTs, and SPs are easy for me to understand. The evil of SJs seems harder...a direct contradiction of their normally cooperative and well-intentioned nature.

 

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If you want to see your dark side, I would suggest shadow walking (kinda what I'm doing now: diving into the alternate personality type). As a rational I find it entertaining to say the least.

 

-What are common character flaws for the ESTJ (or any SJ guardian)?
Sometimes I am blind to emotion, I can completely compartmentalize it and ignore it.
-If an ESTJ wanted to hurt someone, how would they go about it?
I think that is more a personal question not a type question, I personally have never and would never set out to intentionally hurt someone no matter how deep the betrayal.
-Can an ESTJ go really bad? I mean, like evil?
Again, more a personal question not a type question.

 

Every person has good and bad in them and is on the course to full development: that's called a positive point of view. In any case.
ESTJ's get a bad wrap I suppose but maybe we deserve it.

We can pretty intimidating. When I want to, I will shout someone out and away from me, and am prepared to "take it outside". Which might be called immature behavior, oh well, sometimes a person deserves a slap on the mouth and that's just how it is.

Yeah, and I'm pretty serious when it comes to work, which is mostly an asset, but there is such a thing as falling too hard on the rules.

I don't typically powder my words, and I'm not very popular around the easily offended. There are simply the way things are, and I don't have the time to mince it for you. Don't like emotional explanations at all, get used to it, life's a bitch. I don't change my tune for individual cases, there's only one things way are.

What's there to like about us then? Haha. Not sure. Keep you alive and off the street?

 

If my older brother took the sociopath test he'd be pretty high up on the scale. Ever since he's joined and devoted his life to an MLM (pyramid scheme) marketing scheme he's become extremely heartless and manipulative.


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I've never met an ESTJ I wasn't scared of. Why do you guys intimidate me so much? :blushed:

 

A lot of the time we don't mean to intimidate people, it's just the way we are. I think the reason you guys find us intimidating is because we always get straight to the point and we don't ever sugarcoat things, and a lot of people have told me that I am a completely unfeeling asshole. This is not true, when I show all my emotions I feel like I have been stripped naked, my point is we do have a lot of feelings but we just dislike showing them.

 

Honestly, I think it's all a question of life experience and maturity. I'm an ESTJ, and I'm very sociable, and people like me and my blunt ways. Why? Because I know how to use it. I value efficiency, so it's not obviously good for me to be an asshole if that doesn't lead me to where I want to go. All of my life, all my jobs were coordinating people or customer care. I would do terrible work if I started calling someone an idiot anytime I feel like it (and don't get me wrong, I DO feel like it).
I'm highly logical and fact-oriented, but I know not everyone responds to that, so I curate my language and try to explain things in a way people will understand, and take my side. More sensitive people would call this insensitive and manipulative, but to me, it's how I get stuff done, well and fast. And my primary focus is results.
It's to the loved ones that I show my raw, darker side. I often get moody with my husband and eye-rolls are a staple in our relationship (he's ENFP), but he gets me. He knows what those eye-rolls mean. He took the time to get to know me and see the gooey center. And there is a gooey center. We don't show feelings, but we feel A LOT. And boy, are we loyal and dedicated. Many many feelers can't take love as seriously as we do, IMO.