I rarely label a person as bad. I usually just label their actions.

So far, I forgive pretty easily if someone asks. Perhaps I'll seem a little cold or distant from someone who had hurt me, but if they genuinely asked for forgiveness or help, 9 times out of 10, I'll grant it.

I get angry (more like frustrated) at people easily, but I'm also able to forgive relatively easily.

People are people and holding petty grudges (though I've been guilty of that from time to time) doesn't do much good in the end other than waste your thoughts on the slight and wastes energy with anger that won't get you anywhere.


of course I give this answer while calm. I'm probably much harder to rationalize with when actually angry... :tongue:

 

I rarely label a person as bad. I usually just label their actions.

So far, I forgive pretty easily if someone asks. Perhaps I'll seem a little cold or distant from someone who had hurt me, but if they genuinely asked for forgiveness or help, 9 times out of 10, I'll grant it.

People are people and holding petty grudges (though I've been guilty of that from time to time) doesn't do much good in the end other than waste your thoughts on the slight and wastes energy with anger that won't get you anywhere.

I totally agree.

I definitely separate people's actions from themselves, and tend to believe that everyone, nomatter how bad they seem, has the potential to be good within them, everyone has reasons I should feel compassion for them. While there may be some really horrible acts that I might have a hard time forgiving, it would have to be pretty extreme for it to become difficult for me (like say if my friend was murdered I might have a hard time forgiving the murderer, but if my friend was killed in a car accident by a drunk driver I would just be very sad, and may have more strong feelings about drunk driving, but at the same time my mind would rationally say accidents just happen, even when people are trying their best to do everything right so I can't just lay blame on this person or on the alcohol, it's not anybody's fault, that's why it's called an accident. They made a bad choice, yes, but we all make choices without having any idea just how serious their effects may be). I tend to be very good at internally rationalizing someone's actions, even when it makes me very hurt or very angry, I can still also think to myself 'but they have their reasons, they're having a bad day, they don't really understand, they just have different values than I do, they were hurt in the past by someone else and this is how it's coming out because they haven't dealt with it properly yet, etc. etc." I guess you can say I firmly value granting 'excuses'. And I certainly don't believe it's worth it for me to harbor resent towards someone, Especially when they are sincerely sorry about something.

 

When it feels right.:wink:

 

I don't think we're too bad at forgiving for the most part. It's the forgetting that we (or I, at least) really struggle with.

Then again, I recall someone saying the phrase "forgiven, but not forgotten" is a romantic way of saying it's not fully forgiven, but it's forgiven enough to allow life to carry on normally.

 

Then again, I recall someone saying the phrase "forgiven, but not forgotten" is a romantic way of saying it's not fully forgiven, but it's forgiven enough to allow life to carry on normally.

*raises hand* I think that was me. Could've been someone else, I've heard someone else say that too. I think. Anyway, I personally don't buy into a whole 'forgiven but not forgotten' idea. It seems a way of saying 'not completely forgiven' and leaving it at that while still leaving deeply-held resentment and sadness. It's a mostly romantic notion to me, if that's the right word, not a workable one.

There have been two or three threads about forgiveness and some aspect of me and I found 'forgiven but not forgotten' is a phrase which appeared often, it seems a normal sentiment amongst INFPs. That post I made above was in this thread, which is old and big but got gravedug on page 5, it's a good thread. I think the general pattern amongst most INFPs who are in a position to deal with the issue in a somewhat healthy/mature manner is they will do the 'forgive but not forget' thing, and forgive where they see genuine remorse, usually with not so great emphasis on what the transgression actually was.

If an INFP sees you as 'bad' generally, having clashed with Fi as you say, then the surest route to forgiveness is probably a discussion involving some deep apology with a good understanding of how you've hurt them.
The other way is to prove over time which works too, but unless the underlying image is tackled, even if it lies dormant, then it could cause problems. Fi has a long memory. All that said it takes a long time for me to ever write off a whole person as mad, I usually see individual mistakes, maybe even a chain of them. I don't believe I usually understand anyone well enough to truly write them off.

 

It really depends on what it is.

But remember, forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting, and it doesn't mean things will go back to the way they were.

 

I think I see a difference in forgiving and forgetting as that forgiving is about responsibility and guiltiness and such things, not being angry any more, and forgetting is about the hurt or other consequence. If someone say I am ugly I might forgive them, because I can understand that they think that, and how things might be said without thinking and we all go around thinking things that might hurt someone etc. But I will not forget it, and will be reminded when I see that person and it will be an obstacle in all interaction from then on.

 

For me it use to be really hard but now I learn that people make mistakes and I'll just try to let it slide..

 

I can usually forgive pretty quickly. I put myself in their shoes and can come up with all kinds of reasons for their actions.

But my trust, once violated, you will never get back.

 

Agreed here. I forgive easily, especially if the person gives a sincere apology. But violations of trust are not easily forgivable, and I will not trust nor want to be around that person again.

 

I forgive people very easily most of the time (I wish I was better at holding grudges, honestly). It takes a lot to make me hate someone forever, but once you cross the line with me, I will despise you forever. There are only three people currently who have this "despised forever" status.

One of them is my crazy bipolar ex-best friend who ratted on me to the cops when I was suicidal, which led to me getting assaulted by the cops and locked up in a mental hospital for 2 days. And this wasn't a case of ignorance because she had been locked up in a mental hospital before too. Afterwards all of my friends refused to speak to her anymore (not just because of this one incident but because she had been a crazy bitch for years) and she accused me of "turning all her friends against her" when I did no such thing.

One of them is the assistant principal at my high school, who locked me in her office for an hour and wouldn't allow me to leave, and called social services on my mom because my mom and I chose to go against her wishes, as was our right. Even the social workers apologized that they had to come over 3 times as required by law to close the case, because it was so obvious that there was nothing to investigate. We tried to get that c*nt fired, but the school sided with her because obviously they're going to take her word over mine.

And the third one is my ex-boyfriend. It really took me breaking up with him and getting into a relationship with someone awesome for me to realize how phenomenally fucked up he was. He pathologically lied CONSTANTLY, including telling lies while admitting to previous lies. One month into our relationship he told me that he had never gotten over his ex-girlfriend (who he broke up with 5 years earlier) and that if we ever "got serious" he would want to contact her one last time "for closure." (I'm 99% sure) he made a fake OKCupid profile with my picture and information and then confronted me with it telling me that I was cheating on him. After we broke up, he made a fake gmail account pretending to be one of his "friends" (who I had never met or even heard of before even though I'd met all of his other friends, he wasn't friends with this guy on Facebook, and nothing came up in a Google search for his supposed name either, so that's how I know it was really my ex) trying to convince me to get back together with him. I saw him on the street once this summer and didn't say hi, and 3 days later I got an extremely sexually explicit email from a fake gmail account telling me how much "a guy I know" really wanted to fuck me. The funny thing is he tried to convince me I had borderline personality disorder, but he was the one who displayed all of the symptoms of it, and all of my symptoms magically disappeared as soon as I got into my next relationship.

So yeah, that turned out way longer than it was supposed to be, but that's what it takes for me to never forgive someone. My dad is a total scumbag, but I would even forgive him if he stopped doing all the things that made me think he was a scumbag in the first place.

 

How hard it is for me to forgive depends on how hard it is for the other person to admit their part, apologize, and back that apology by remedying whatever the problem was. If it's not worth the effort on their part, I don't feel like it's worth my effort to forgive. If I'm upset enough where I feel this way, you've done something pretty outrageous at that point, and the normal "sorry" isn't going to cover it.

 

Ok, I will share I type as an INFP......this may be the last time you ever see this in a post or maybe you should just forget you ever saw me type it in a forum.

I'm going through a situation like this, and speaking from personal experience it really depends on what happened and how severe the offense. In my case I can not forgive and I will in all probability carry my animosity to my grave. This is my own fault however I knew the person and the other people involved had rather screwed up tendencies and I chose to let them in my life (me being an INFP and trying to see the best in people and having rather lofty idealistic views of people and situations).

I know they say forgiveness and trust are two separate things and you can forgive and just not trust people anymore. The thing is that when people make the same mistake over and over, I believe there has to come a point where you stop doing either.

So in conclusion, I guess it really depends on what happened and how deeply it affected you. Only the offended INFP would be answer this, and if you are unable to understand why they are hurt, and what happened to cause it, they may never forgive and could quite possibly door slam and attempt to lock you out of their life forever.

 

Not that hard. If it's a serious error, all I need is:

- a sincere apology
- admitting to blame, not deflecting or denying, apologies which amount to "I'm sorry YOU feel that way" will anger me, and insistence that something was not when it was will also irritate me
- it's okay to explain you didn't have bad motive or what was going on inside your head, but try to avoid making it look like a justification or excuse
- acknowledgment of the validity of my feelings- DO NOT invalidate by implying I am too sensitive or something
- expression of repentance, accompanied by some communication of how this offense will be avoided in the future
- seeing a new pattern emerge which shows the repentance was genuine

There's an "apology languages" like the love languages thing that is probably useful here, because every individual may respond to different manners of apologizing, even if the same MBTI type. The above is ideal to me, as I've accepted different ways of apologizing which communicated sincerity, taking responsibility, regret, and intent to not repeat. For lesser crimes, just knowing that someone understands WHY I am upset and intends to RESPECT how I feel in the future is usually enough.

Also, the closer someone is to me, the more I let go or allow to be healed with time. A positive pattern carries weight with me, and I allow for a lot of inconsistency in people. I give the benefit of the doubt a lot, and am very understanding to bad moods, and inevitable personality flaws, etc. I rarely NEED the kind of apology detailed above, but when I do, then it can be very important.

Personally, I cannot think of anyone I really continued to "hate" after a sincere apology. In have gotten apologies which did not feel sincere to me, often accompanied with blame deflection, denial of what happened & their motive (when it was clear) and invalidation my feeling. These do little but create some veneer of civility, which I find almost worse than outright distaste for one another.

Most people I come to despise (very few people) never apologize for anything and have committed a series of grievances aimed specifically at me with a clear intent to harm me in some manner, or they insisted on such a prejudice view of me so as to be insulting with how they dealt with me (this is forgivable if corrected upon knowing me better). These were not mere blunders, but conscious decisions on the part of these people with obvious intent.

FYI, I'd also make sure the person is actually mad at you & harboring any ill feeling. INFPs can withdraw and get quiet, etc, for reasons unrelated to someone, but yet people may take it personally.

 

Yep so true!

 

Yes, agreed about the need for a genuine apology. Im going through something similar atm, I won't talk properly to him until he apologizes and I heard through the grapevine he was going to apologize and still hasn't, cowardliness doesn't earn my respect here, humbleness does. He's had a few opportunities to say something but has walked away with his tail between his legs and so I shall just keep giving the neutral treatment and not spend more mental energy over something that is one-sided. So yeah, apologies that are genuine are usually given consideration but sometimes not, depending on how bad the situation. It's not unusual for me to shut people out of my life for months, years etc from someone that's pushed it too far.

 

I do need a proper and genuine apology for me to forgive. In one case, an ex-best friend did not and continued on blaming me and making himself out to be the victim (long story), and even though it's been seven months, I still have not forgiven him. I don't hate him though.

I can forgive easily but I don't forget; and if my trust is broken, good luck getting it back.

 

Do you think it's easy to see when your emotions do get hurt for someone on the outside?

Would you actually go to that person and say "when you did this and that you really hurt me" or do you expect them to understand that they hurt you because they did this and that which did not resonate with your values?

For me I kind of expect an apology when I make a physical reaction (that's emotions for me) or at least see that the other person notice this and reacts to it. Could be more of an Fe thing though, not sure.

 

I think IxFPs are possibly the least likely of all the Feeling types to display an emotional reaction, especially one that looks physical. Because we experiences emotions as signals to alert ourselves of some violation or meeting of an ideal, we may not express them. Whereas Fe types & extroverts often use emotions more to communicate. I can have outbursts with close family, the only ones to get an immediate reaction if they anger or upset me. I think I am pretty temperamental & snappy then. Among non-family, I'm more likely to seethe quietly.

That's not to say I am 100% unreadable. I don't expect people to read my mind either. And so if I an upset and feel they need to know, so as to protect myself, then I may express . I'm unlikely to say my feelings are hurt. It's more likely to be couched in terms that sound like "I don't appreciate it when you.." or a warning/request like "In the future, could you not..." or something sort of informative like "I think . I actually will get rather cool and almost business-like when informing people, perhaps some inferior Te thing. If it's family though, like I said, I can blow up & bite heads off.

I'm unlikely to confront someone at a later time. I tend to either address it immediately or in private I come to some conclusion (to either brush it off, or wait & see how the person continues to be, or avoid them). If I do confront, then I am very direct about it. I don't like elephants in the room, so I won't pretend like nothing is wrong.

I recently had to confront someone directly, but I waited a long time, until I had some information from others to reference, because so often it's too easy for people to brush off their behavior. I may get confirmation from others on the matter so as to back-up my perceptions and validate my feelings, because I anticipate them being dismissed. Even with that, the person still denied the heart of the issue, and even though there was a surface patching up, the unwillingness to be honest makes it impossible for me to restore any trust in this person at all.

 

Oh, ISTP, what did you do? Were you too harsh with your logic?

In all seriousness, for me it would depend on the crime. I could be very angry and indignant until I feel I have explained how they have hurt me or done wrong and then they have apologised. If the apology is genuine, I forgive. If they are deliberately hurtful or inconsiderate of my feelings on multiple occasions, I will be very upset with them for a period of time and distance myself. Then I will forgive but keep my distance. I rarely forget.

 

Yeah, I probably was too harsh in some ways It's really hard for me when that hard Te comes my way with that sensitive Fi. The hard Te really hurts my weak Fe which will start a chain reaction in some way.

I was in a really stressed state when we first met, add to that me not knowing about mbti and communication problems. Also I felt it like she didn't notice that I was stressed and didn't care neither, which made me wonder how self centered she was. Instead she took my stressed state kind of personal instead of "I can see that you are stressed as f*ck, I'll cut you some slack" I felt it more like "I want you to act like this!" and I probably wanted her to act in another way. So I think we kind of irritated each other in some ways.

Then I think she started to try to understand me and talk about things about herself and after that she tried to test my character by saying and doing some things, which I noticed right away and I'm not that kind of guy to fall for those things neither.

Now she's kind of being nice but I do sense that there is something I did which is still there. So it's not like I've done something really bad it's just me trying to understand what happened from a better state than I was in back then.

 

I always give second chances. Not thirds, though.
And how easy is it for me to forgive? I can't resist a sincere apology. I just see their face struggling to say sorry and I melt. If they try to deviate blame and place it on me, then good riddance, doesn't matter if we've been bffs for 15 years (true story).
@SuperSoaker No, it's impossible to read my emotions on my face, I'm very inexpressive and have to make an effort to show feelings.

Would you actually go to that person and say "when you did this and that you really hurt me" or do you expect them to understand that they hurt you because they did this and that which did not resonate with your values?

Calling them out or not depends on what kind of relationship we have. And it will be completely subjective to me; people who adore me and trust me think that I adore and trust them, when in reality I don't reciprocate the feelings. If I'm not telling the person "Hey that hurts me" then it's because I don't trust them and don't think of them as "real friends" or "important enough worth expressing my feelings". If I'm willing to provoke conflict it means I trust the person, I'm not afraid of their reaction, and I deem them worthy of my energy.

I don't expect them to read my mind or 'just understand' that I'm hurt. I used to do that in my teens, though, so I have remnants of those patterns that still pollute my brain a bit. The one thing that I do expect people to 'get' is when my attitude is distant and I seem crabby, that means 'leave me alone, I'm processing'. In my mind it makes perfect sense that another person would avoid my presence if I morph into a mute crabby/theatening-looking creature, if I were an animal in that state I'd be a porcupine, wouldn't I. You don't go touching porcupines. Makes perfect sense in my brain. Some people read my body language and leave me alone until I have processed everything on my own and come out of crabby hibernation. But there are other (very strange) humans who insist on asking "What's wroooong?" and they chase you around no matter how many times you tell them to leave you alone. They have this weird idea that you're playing 'hard to get' and you really want is attention. Where the hell are people getting these ideas?! It doesn't get much more clear than explicit "I want to be alone"

 

I forgive easily, but it's hard for me to forget the things people have done, because the way I treat them is obviously informed by their actions. I don't feel like there's any point in holding onto a grudge, but at the same time it's unlikely that I'll give many second chances nowadays. So even though I've forgiven someone, I keep my distance, for my own good if nor for both of us.

 

If it's something minor, it's cool for most INFPs. Bad feels are a venom to us and there's nothing wrong in being human; everyone is going to step on toes sooner or later. It all kind of goes in hand in us being being tolerant or accepting of things that don't somehow violate a core belief which usually entails something ethical cause idealism. Basically, if its nothing big and the person didn't mean it but is still very aware of what he or she did, forgiveness if extremely plausible in the near future. No one wants to feel hated for something they didn't mean to do. I even forgive people that don't even apologize sometimes; some people just don't know if they're being rude or not.

That is until you violate an INFP's trust or harm them in an extremely personal way, like twisting a knife in the soul intense. Then you're shit out of luck.

 

If someone understands how they've done me wrong, it's really easy for me to forgive them and try to move on, but I won't ever forget what they're capable of. The only exception I have to this is trust in a relationship. Cheating/lying/manipulating in a relationship is almost a non-refundable mistake. I've given second chances before and they never turn up good so I guess as an INFP in that regard I've moved into the dark side.

 

People never see how hurt I get. In public, if I get mad or have any weird emotions, I just have a blank face because I'm afraid that I'm going to burst into tears if I over think. I will forgive, but I hold grudges for years on end. If someone hurts me, that moment usually leaves a lasting impression. I'm not exactly mad at the person after a couple days and I will talk to them and forgive them but sometimes never completely depending on the circumstance.

 

I still have trouble forgiving myself at times for certain things in my life.
I don't forgive easily.

 

I was going to say that I forgive way too easily, but this made me rethink.

I have a hell of a hard time forgiving myself for anything. I forgive OTHERS way too easily, especially in relationships, but like Iridium I do not forget what they are capable of.

The main exception is people in positions of authority over me. When I have a boss who disrespects or mistreats me, I tend to feel a venomous hatred for them. I don't think I have ever had a boss who apologized to me. When I feel that somebody feels like they are more important than me so they can treat me however they want, I do not forgive them easily. I guess maybe it is also when somebody doesn't apologize or recognize they have done anything wrong.

Another exception is when somebody hurts a person I love.

 

I know you've supplied more information about the situation, but for some reason, I feel like there isn't enough there for me to go on. So let's start with you. You said you were depressed at the time and you got into a very stressful situation, which was the time you bumped into her. Here are some of the things you could have been experiencing.

Recognising Stress
As stress increases, 'learned behaviour' tends to give way to the natural style, so the ISTP will behave more according to type when under greater stress. For example, in a crisis, the ISTP might:

-withdraw from people, to think through possible solutions
-use tried and trusted solutions to short-term problems
-criticize others efforts and ignore their feelings
-sort out detailed points that could perhaps wait

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the ISTP's shadow may appear - a negative form of ENFJ. Example characteristics are:

-displaying intense feelings towards others, or insisting on things being done without any logical basis
-being very sensitive to criticism
-having a gloomy view of the future
-attributing unrealistic negative meaning to others actions or statements

The shadow is part of the unconscious that is often visible to others, onto whom the shadow is projected. The ISTP may therefore readily see these faults in others without recognizing it in him/her self.

I have an ISTP cousin who I interact with regularly. We usually get along well, but if either of us is stressed, I have noticed that we can easily bring out the worst in each other. We also tend to misgauge the other person, both in what they mean and why they are doing something. We're good at "reading" people, but in different ways, and that all gets thrown out the window when stress is involved. The only way we can sort it out is for both of us to actively control our emotions and talk things through. It's not uncommon to find that we just didn't understand where the other person was coming from.

Her current reactions to you sound like she's gun shy. An ISTP having emotional outbursts for a year would be distressing for an INFP to be around, especially if we couldn't predict or understand what was causing the outbursts. You have to understand, an INFP "reads" all that emotion on a constant basis. (I can hear my ISTP cousin laughing now "What, you think you are Deanna Troi?" ....Me: "Yes, yes I am. If that helps you understand"). We can't ignore it, or turn it off. We're forced to "listen" to it. It's draining. We usually attempt to assuage the situation by trying to help. If those attempts fail, and the outbursts continue, our patience can begin to wane. At some point, even if an INFP originally felt compassion for that person's pain, it can turn into frustration. You may know that your up-and-down emotions were not because of her, but she doesn't necessarily know that. But at the very least, it sounds like she just doesn't have a clue what to expect from you. Walking on eggshells comes to mind.

You will never know what's exactly going on in her mind unless you talk to her. My ISTP cousin never gets me on his own, no matter how hard he tries, and we're related. The good news is, INFP and ISTP share the "P", which means both kinds can be rather open to understanding each other in a way "Js" sometimes are not. It can be a struggle, but INFP and ISTP can be a great team when they learn to understand each other.

 

I did all of those negative ENFJ traits. So I can see how my first impression wasn't good and I had problems with other people as well, but it was with the INFP that I crashed and it makes sense with our functions being so different.

Thank you, that really makes sense to me and now it feels better for me.

Me asking about how hard it is to forgive is more me being gun shy and wondering if I'll get my face slammed with a new door, but I really don't think so.

Usually NF girls are the only ones who can see my soft side beneath and usually they start to tickle it as well :tongue:

 

I forgive other people too easily but if they've broken my trust, they'll probably never win it back again.

 

I'm not sure whether or not INFPs tend to have a hard time forgiving, but I know I do. I'm really bad with holding grudges. If I actually make myself vulnerable and somebody hurts me, even if it's small, I have a hard time liking them. Like my roommate - she let her drunk friend bitch at me for nothing, and now every time I hear her voice or laugh, I'm just like oh my goddd she's so obnoxious and annoying. In my head, I just pick at every part of her now and hate her... I think it has more to do with being a 4 than an INFP, though. You should forgive them when you feel ready, though. There's no need to try to convince yourself you feel good about someone when you don't.

 

i did read through the thread but being that i'm going through a bit of stress in my life right now for the past couple days, i don't want to say too much while in this stressed depressed mood at the moment; but i did want to put a little 2cents in.

First of all, i find it awesome that an ISTP guy would come over to the INFP forum to ask for help and advice on how to win over an INFP girl that seems to have gotten offended by him. If she's smart, she'll be quick to forgive you! because in my opinion ISTP guys are the greatest match for INFP girls! my best relationship i had in my life was with an ISTP guy, and 20 years later i still regret that i broke up with him, (his family culture didn't want him to be with a outside culture to theirs is what i am, for that i broke up, but we had such deep true love).

so, anyhows, me and him were together and lived together for 4 years. Here's the dynamics between the ISTP and the INFP, or at least the ISTP guy and INFP girl, because i'm not sure if it would be the same dynamics if it's an INFP guy with an ISTP girl, idk?

our relationship was a relationship of service and physical touch was the love languages. It wasn't emotional intellect, it was he would fix things around the house for me, i would care for him in cooking, etc, and our expression of emotion was in sex, and in touching and cuddling, holding hands, etc. we had an awesome sex life. best ever for me. all his love and emotion he coudln't express in talking, he expressed in sex, same for me, cause even though INFP's are feeling doms, Fi doms, we suck at emotionally expressing ourself in coherent ways, afterall feeling is not thinking, so we can sound illogical when trying to express our emotions, so in a way both are not that great at expressing their feelings, so in sex it's all expressed and it's phenominal, lol

so yeah, there is no perfect type combo. and it's good to look at the 5 love languages, it makes alot of sense. that way you can see with the combining of different types how they will express their love.

also INFP's and ISTP's can be silent around each other and be quite peaceful and content. he was Spanish, i'm english, and his english wasn't too good, so we were really pushed to showing our love through serving and physical touch, and that's probably why we were so deeply in love, it was a good thing we couldn't speak well to each other for language barrier issues, cause that way there was not much misunderstanding, we showed our love physically. it was great!

now, i know ISTP's are not traditional, but maybe you could go get her some flowers (even better if you pick them from a plant yourself it means more to the INFP than store bought), and go to her and tell her you're real sorry for the misunderstandings and that you were going through a depression and would like a chance to resolve the misunderstandings with her cause you love her and want her. (and do introduce her to MBTI, it will help alot)

i kinda doubt she'll turn you down, our hearts melt easily, and we're hopeless romantics, lol

best of luck to you! ISTP's rock!!

 

Thank you

I also had one of those relationship and it really hurts when you have to break up just because of some stupid cultural rules.

It's not that I want to win her over in that sense. I would like it if we could be more friend-ish and have less misunderstandings.

Actually trying to win someone over is not something I would ever do. If it's there, it's there :tongue: