[Swordsman of Mana]

Is this from your personal experience or do you perhaps know of any good sources of information about this phenomenon?
Just... trying to make sense of some things.

already posted one. look up Beatrice Chestnut's Sexual 4 description earlier in the thread

 

[Swordsman of Mana]

@MuChApArAdOx
I can understand why you would doubt 6, but So/Sx? you're like the Sp/Sx poster girl

 

[drmiller100]

narfae,

do you feel ohter people's pain and emotions? do you feel you are unique, or do you feel you are not unique?'

do you KNOW you unique, and don't worry about it ever?

 

[aurly]

already posted one. look up Beatrice Chestnut's Sexual 4 description earlier in the thread

Thanks for that. I'm trying to understand more of this instinct, motivations and behavior... Do you have anything on sx4w3 vs sx4w5 differences?

 

[Animal]

narfae,

do you feel ohter people's pain and emotions? do you feel you are unique, or do you feel you are not unique?'

do you KNOW you unique, and don't worry about it ever?

I don't worry about being unique. Just saying. It's so obvious that I'm not like other people, that it's isolating. I'm happy to find commonality.

"Unique" vs. "Common" is a designation that other people agree on. I think for myself rather than base my behavior or personality on such an arbitrary designation. ...Isn't that mindset "unique" in itself?

I want to be authentic, and be seen as authentic. Part of what's real about any human is, realistically, in some fundamental ways we are all the same. So I will not deny real parts of myself for the sake of standing out. That's inauthentic, and it's allowing a social construct that has nothing to do with me, to determine who I am. Complying and rebelling are both allowing others to determine your path. I am not even on that spectrum. My path comes from myself.. period.

That said, I'd prefer if someone recognizes that I'm different because ITS TRUE and that means they understand who I am. If someone thinks i'm anything like other people, or I will behave like their ex or their other friends.. they have another thing coming. And that will lead to disappointment, me feeling frustrated that they didn't really know me and them feeling frustrated that I wasn't what they thought. But, being perceived as common has not been a problem in my friendships I can't imagine what kind of idiot would think that. Usually it's more like, people see me as a kind of wild card since they cannot manage to make sense of me. I don't try to be an enigma, nor am I particularly 'reactive' or inclined to blow up and do crazy things, but oftentimes people just don't know what to expect because my mindset is nothing like they have encountered before. So I can be perceived as "wild," "eccentric" or "crazy." However people who know me well usually inform me eventually that I am the most sane person they've ever met. I am sane because I don't concern myself with arbitrary distinctions, meaningless labels, social constructs and the like, except to muse over them from outside.


This is part of why i mistyped at 8. I could not relate to the idea that I'd "Want to be unique" - its like saying I want to have a chronic illness, or I want to be incapable of having a normal job and relationship. It's like saying "I want to be rejected and isolated." Huh? This is something I was FORCED to accept about myself, my "being different" and unable to fit with society and others... and so it's not something I WANT but rather something that I OWN because what choice do I have? I am more likely to find love and real friends if I just show the world who I really am and hope to attract someone from my home planet. If I try to fit in, I will only be forging superficial and meaningless friendships that won't be fulfilling, since they are not based on something real about me. So I own the 'uniqueness' I already possess and cannot possibly get rid of, but it is not a goal to be unique, nor am I insecure about being seen as common.. the idea just makes me laugh, and makes me kind of sad too because it will lead to misunderstanding and reenforce my isolation in the long run.

 

[Swordsman of Mana]

Thanks for that. I'm trying to understand more of this instinct, motivations and behavior... Do you have anything on sx4w3 vs sx4w5 differences?

the Sexual 4w3 is probably going to a somewhat more extroverted character, more theatrical and more of an elitist diva. the best way I can describe Sexual 4w5 would be "emo witch" (I realize this sounds very stereotypical lol), and they have a more dark, withdrawn energy which can be visibly more malicious.

 

[Animal]

Thanks for that. I'm trying to understand more of this instinct, motivations and behavior... Do you have anything on sx4w3 vs sx4w5 differences?

the Sexual 4w3 is probably going to a somewhat more extroverted character, more theatrical and more of an elitist diva. the best way I can describe Sexual 4w5 would be "emo witch" (I realize this sounds very stereotypical lol), and they have a more dark, withdrawn energy which can be visibly more malicious.

Instinctual stacking aside, I've noticed one difference: 5 is an ego type which is more about what's internal (in the case of 5, what is "conceptualized" or "known") whereas 3 is an attachment type which is more about what's external (in the case of type 3, what is "seen"). So both 4w5 and 4w3 will have a sense of being different, but 4w3s are more likely to show it off and wear meaningful symbols and color codes to alert people to who they are; to flaunt external symbols and manifestations of their inner feelings. The 4w5 may also create external manifestations of their feelings (like art), but they might be more prone to think its inauthentic or less special if they show it off. The 5 avarice may make them want to hold it back and keep it for themselves and those really special. It's meaningful because it is understood (internally), rather than shown. A 4w3 is more likely to view herself as a vessel through which her identity emerges.... but identity is not the entirety of 'self' and of course, due to shame, there are still things a 4w3 will not "display." Since a 4w5 understands this distinction, she might find it inauthentic or shallow to flaunt only parts of herself but not others.

So a 4w3 might worry, "He sees my glamor, but he doesnt see ME." I have an 'air' about me, and its not fake - my sensuality and aesthetic expression is rooted in who I am, and it manifests through my clothes and motion. But then, I worry that people see me as some glamorous beacon of inspiration that I won't be able to live up to. I'm not fun and exciting in truth. I do immerse myself in moments, and in sensual scenarios, but most of the time in my own world, fussy about my living space, needing time alone, sad, forlorn, having nothing to say, hating myself, self-absorbed, etc. I'm not JUST an art piece, even if I live my life as art. I've had THREE people in three completely different settings who do not know each other, call me "Art" instead of my real name. It is true but it also makes me feel a bit objectified. When people regard me as a muse - which is my own doing, dammit, yet to be any other way would be inauthentic- and they end up with a human, who is miserable and ashamed of my own love-need, they will surely reject me in the end, even if they found me inspiring at first. I have a hard time trusting that someone might actually love, or even SEE my humanity. So I feel isolated, even in close relationships, yet I have nobody to blame but myself.

With 4w5s, they're more apt to think nobody will notice what stands out about them in the first place, since they keep those 'special things' more to themselves, even if they are also aesthetes and artists. It's not as "in your face" with 4w5s. All 4s know that there's something special, different about them; but also that they are deeply human. So in both cases they'll think "if only someone could REALLY know me they might even like me or understand." But 4w5s might feel that they won't be recognized for who they are in the first place, since it's so private, and it would be inauthentic to make a display of it. Thus the only way to draw people in is through some air of mystery... which is more authentic, since there is so much going on inside. But once you know a person, they're no longer a mystery.. so its that same sense of "eventuality" of rejection that the 4 will inevitably experience once someone finds out who the 4 is "for real."

 

[nichya]

the Sexual 4w3 is probably going to a somewhat more extroverted character, more theatrical and more of an elitist diva. the best way I can describe Sexual 4w5 would be "emo witch" (I realize this sounds very stereotypical lol), and they have a more dark, withdrawn energy which can be visibly more malicious.

Could this be what a 4w5 looks to a 7? After all, we are pretty much everything you guys try to push deep down or is the lack of my Disney references failing me?

 

[Animal]

Could this be what a 4w5 looks to a 7? After all, we are pretty much everything you guys try to push deep down or is the lack of my Disney references failing me?

My father is a 7w8 and we are both musicians. He says the difference between us is that he goes on stage to entertain the audience and I go on stage to allow the audience watch me express my deep feelings. haha.

 

[nichya]

Instinctual stacking aside, I've noticed one difference: 5 is an ego type which is more about what's internal (in the case of 5, what is "conceptualized" or "known") whereas 3 is an attachment type which is more about what's external (in the case of type 3, what is "seen"). So both 4w5 and 4w3 will have a sense of being different, but 4w3s are more likely to show it off and wear meaningful symbols and color codes to alert people to who they are; to flaunt external symbols and manifestations of their inner feelings. The 4w5 may also create external manifestations of their feelings (like art), but they might be more prone to think its inauthentic or less special if they show it off. The 5 avarice may make them want to hold it back and keep it for themselves and those really special. It's meaningful because it is understood (internally), rather than shown. A 4w3 is more likely to view herself as a vessel through which her identity emerges.... but identity is not the entirety of 'self' and of course, due to shame, there are still things a 4w3 will not "display." Since a 4w5 understands this distinction, she might find it inauthentic or shallow to flaunt only parts of herself but not others.

So a 4w3 might worry, "He sees my glamor, but he doesnt see ME." I have an 'air' about me, and its not fake - my sensuality and aesthetic expression is rooted in who I am, and it manifests through my clothes and motion. But then, I worry that people see me as some glamorous beacon of inspiration that I won't be able to live up to. I'm not fun and exciting in truth. I do immerse myself in moments, and in sensual scenarios, but most of the time in my own world, fussy about my living space, needing time alone, sad, forlorn, having nothing to say, hating myself, self-absorbed, etc. I'm not JUST an art piece, even if I live my life as art. I've had THREE people in three completely different settings who do not know each other, call me "Art" instead of my real name. It is true but it also makes me feel a bit objectified. When people regard me as a muse - which is my own doing, dammit, yet to be any other way would be inauthentic- and they end up with a human, who is miserable and ashamed of my own love-need, they will surely reject me in the end, even if they found me inspiring at first. I have a hard time trusting that someone might actually love, or even SEE my humanity. So I feel isolated, even in close relationships, yet I have nobody to blame but myself.

With 4w5s, they're more apt to think nobody will notice what stands out about them in the first place, since they keep those 'special things' more to themselves, even if they are also aesthetes and artists. It's not as "in your face" with 4w5s. All 4s know that there's something special, different about them; but also that they are deeply human. So in both cases they'll think "if only someone could REALLY know me they might even like me or understand." But 4w5s might feel that they won't be recognized for who they are in the first place, since it's so private, and it would be inauthentic to make a display of it. Thus the only way to draw people in is through some air of mystery... which is more authentic, since there is so much going on inside. But once you know a person, they're no longer a mystery.. so its that same sense of "eventuality" of rejection that the 4 will inevitably experience once someone finds out who the 4 is "for real."

" But 4w5s might feel that they won't be recognized for who they are in the first place, since it's so private, and it would be inauthentic to make a display of it. Thus the only way to draw people in is through some air of mystery... which is more authentic, since there is so much going on inside. But once you know a person, they're no longer a mystery"

This is especially emphasized when I fall into 4w3 - 4w3s are more likely to show it off and wear meaningful symbols and color codes to alert people to who they are; to flaunt external symbols and manifestations of their inner feelings. - When I am retreating back to my natural 5 wing I feel that I have been too much out there that it was a flaunt that my 5 would find unnecessary and distasteful. This happens at times I am hurt or when I feel like I want to draw a person in but can't/won't pull them in openly. Or when I cut off a person but I still want to be heard. Especially since I take my masks off when I am alone I do feel bad about this as it conflicts the 5. I also feel like 5 wing is a much more content side of being a 4. Perhaps there is this hint of thinking nobody will notice just how different my inner world is, I don't try to show it off, I don't try to appeal to people but I am more self absorbed and don't need a stage to perform at.

I am just comparing the wings though, I am never this content as an sx/sp and having 7 and 8 fix. But surely it is more content than my state in 4w3

 

[Swordsman of Mana]

Could this be what a 4w5 looks to a 7? After all, we are pretty much everything you guys try to push deep down or is the lack of my Disney references failing me?

speaking for myself, I don't push down that kind of stuff at all, which is one of the reservations I have about typing as a 7. I love dark, sinister, intense feelings, music and entertainment and have a much stronger connection to anger and deprivation than I notice in most 7s.

 

[nichya]

speaking for myself, I don't push down that kind of stuff at all, which is one of the reservations I have about typing as a 7. I love dark, sinister, intense feelings, music and entertainment and have a much stronger connection to anger and deprivation than I notice in most 7s.

While I do believe not everything has to be according to the book, indeed I haven't met another ENFP 7 who does not actively try to push dark and negative feelings. It even feels like the core of their essence, very stereotypical. Only at times the Si-inferior emerges, then I observe that they might be more drawn to these, never in an energizing way though, if that makes sense.

 

[Swordsman of Mana]

While I do believe not everything has to be according to the book, indeed I haven't met another ENFP 7 who does not actively try to push dark and negative feelings. It even feels like the core of their essence, very stereotypical. Only at times the Si-inferior emerges, then I observe that they might be more drawn to these, never in an energizing way though, if that makes sense.

exactly. my understanding tends to get criticized as "book-ish" and "over-applying archetypes", but in this case, it's also based of knowing quite a few 7s, and they all have a certain "lightness" to them, even though they also have a hidden intensity and can be quite opinionated (my intensity is about as hidden as the cleavage of a Spanish soap opera star).

 

[Animal]

I don't necessarily agree with all of these, but I just saw it and thought it was interesting for the post about 4w3 and 4w5

 

[drmiller100]

I don't worry about being unique. Just saying. It's so obvious that I'm not like other people, that it's isolating. I'm happy to find commonality.

.

Smiles............ Sent with smiles...............

Ask a 4 what their relationship with "unique" is, and it is never a short answer.................

smiles....... If you look at my question, I was actually trying to trigger Narfae by poking at her relationship with uniqueness.

 

[drmiller100]

speaking for myself, I don't push down that kind of stuff at all, which is one of the reservations I have about typing as a 7. I love dark, sinister, intense feelings, music and entertainment and have a much stronger connection to anger and deprivation than I notice in most 7s.

I think of 1's as being self depriving, and wanting to "earn" their successes through self immolation. Perhaps when emotionally wounded you feel that self deprivation?
For anger, you lean towards 8 as a 7. I don't think you use anger as power or energy as a true 8. Also, no shortage of anger in an unhealthy 1, which is what a 7 devolves to.........

if only you spent much time researching and learning and focusing on some subject (integrating towards 5) when you are happy and your basic needs are met......

(smiles)................

 

[Animal]

Smiles............ Sent with smiles...............

Ask a 4 what their relationship with "unique" is, and it is never a short answer.................

smiles....... If you look at my question, I was actually trying to trigger Narfae by poking at her relationship with uniqueness.

:th_o:

 

[drmiller100]

:th_o:

I don't know what that means??????????????

 

[o0india0o]

There are a lot of different instinctual variant descriptions floating around (that differ significantly sometimes) - - but this website has always helped me, so I will share the information with you:

Intimate (SX) Eights

* Considerate protective friends; loyal, dependable and there when you need them.

* Healthy Intimate Eights can be thoughtful and philosophical about matters of the heart, the vagaries and complexities of relationships.

* Sensitive and compassionate, they often have a stronger connection to Two.

* Boxer-poets; people who have a paradoxical combination of aggression and sensitivity.

* This subtype can bring artistic tendencies: the desire to create, express, write.

* Many female Eights have this subtype.

* A nuanced ironic intelligence, especially about relationships.

* Intimate Eights are sometimes mistaken for Fours and occasionally have a Four parent.

* More easily able to switch places with their beloved, to sympathetically enter into the world view and feelings of the other person.

* When intimate Eights are less healthy, they are wary of betrayal and prone to suspicion.

* They can freight up their relationships with expectations, often worrying about the other person’s capacity to handle their aggression and vulnerabilities.

* Want stable, loyal predictable partners and may be sensitive to signs of faltering commitment.

* Can feel that a close relationship is a mutual pact of protection in
a dangerous world.

* Test their partner’s motives and fortitude by being paradoxically tough and aggressive. If the partner can handle being emotionally roughed up then the Eight can relax enough to be unguarded.

* Reminiscent of the practice of “hazing” that new members endure when they join a fraternity.

* Intimate Eights can express love so implicitly and invisibly that their partner doesn’t know it.

* May give you a gift that they have poured their heart into, but do so in such a casual way that it seems to mean nothing.

* Set themselves up to be ignored and overlooked and then react angrily.

* Can be possessive and try to dominate and control an intimate partner.

* They can be exceptionally jealous, hooked into the other, overreacting to their partner’s every move.

* Might seek out pliant or passive people – Twos Sixes or Nines – so that the Eight can be in charge.

* The dark extreme of this subtype can be seen in the behavior of male stalkers and spousal abusers.

* May want revenge for being rejected and carry the sense that the other person is my possession and they aren’t going to get away from me.

* Connected to the low side of Two, prideful codependence and emotionalism.

* Focus on the other person while they neglect themselves.

- See more at: Fine Distinctions: Type Eights | Center for Spiritual Resources

Intimate (SX) Fours

* Intimate Fours love others in a deep way, and possess a sensitive, complex, poetic intelligence about matters of the heart

* This is a highly romantic subtype, visible in the realms of romantic poetry, the troubadour tradition and popular music about love, especially in the lyrics of confessional singers

* Often stay friends with ex-lovers

* A focus on aesthetics; some Intimate Fours are tasteful, flashy dressers

* Can harbor a fantasy of perfect union, a redemptive love that will heal the wound of being an unwanted outsider
Prone to jealousy and may be competitive in close relationships as well as generally; can feel like there is only so much love to go around

* Want to be Number One in their beloved’s heart or the only person their partner has ever loved; could be jealous of their partner’s past relationships

* A stronger connection to Two

* May be surprised to discover that their beloved has different needs; they assume mutuality of purpose and are unprepared to negotiate

* Also prone to professional envy and try to best others at work

* May be unable to enjoy their successes without demeaning the achievements of others
Intimate Fours can resemble Eights just as romantic Intimate Eights can resemble Fours

* Can believe that without someone to love they are nothing and life is not worth living

* When in love, images of their partner fill the Four’s awareness and attention. The beloved is a muse, necessary to connect Fours to their own life force

* May take no responsibility for their life until Mr. or Ms. Right comes along

* There can be a willful immaturity to this stance, a stubborn refusal to face facts no matter what the practical costs

* Can be love addicts who lack the memory of being loved and believe they are condemned to search the world for something or someone to fill them up

* Some Intimate Fours act markedly seductive to stave off being rejected

* May engineer rejection by picking unavailable or inappropriate people to become infatuated with

* A few have ambiguous, confused or exaggerated sexual identities or a chronic identity crisis around their sexuality

- See more at: Enneagram: Fine Distinctions, Type Four | Center for Spiritual Resources

 

[narfae]

narfae,

do you feel ohter people's pain and emotions? do you feel you are unique, or do you feel you are not unique?'

do you KNOW you unique, and don't worry about it ever?

I don't care whether I am unique or not, actually. It's just not something I think about. I am true to myself, which can make me seem eccentric and therefore unique; but really, if everyone was true to themselves, their eccentricity and uniqueness would become obvious also. Humans are a bunch of weirdos, right? Haha.

I do feel other's pain and emotions... but, I didn't give a crap until recently. Like. I was semi-aware of the affect I had on people, but I didn't really give it any thought or care? It took me a while to realize that I was kind of a jerk (to elaborate, a jerk meaning, cruel mockery, belittling, etc.) and to try to temper myself a bit, which, come to think of it, is my way of showing people I love them. Being gentler.