[Coburn]

And I'd be like, wow, cool, I see my wise words have convinced you! .... and then I'd start rechecking my figures, because if *that* guy agrees with me, well.....

Hahahaha. Optimism at its best.

 

[Laeona]

It's not fair that an INTP can win without trying! I cry foul! Is it that incredibly witty humor INTP's have? Drat, that always seems to win everyone...

@Jojo354 I get the feeling you and I dated the same ESTJ guy, because I really hate to think that there is more than one of him.

And I'm kind of amused so far. Most of the advice in this thread was not from ESTJ. They grew all silent. And each personality type that engaged had very different ways of approaching the ESTJ. That in itself was rather interesting to observe.

 

[Jojo354]

@Laeona haha....I've learnt nothing nothing about ESTJ's in this thread, only how every other type would handle the situation.

In the end it wasn't what he did that ended up being the problem it was been brought down to the level of a two year old every time we had a discussion.

Keeping an open mind hopefully he was a one off.

 

[Diagille]

Imo you never win an argument against an ESTJ...the best conclusion to hope for is an amicable compromise.

 

[Dark NiTe]

Never win an argument against an ESTJ? Shiiiit, I owned my ESTJ mother so bad in arguments as a teenager, she tried to strike me with that psychotic Sgt. Hartman look in her eyes several times.

How do I win an argument against an ESTJ? Don't argue with them unless you can prove irrefutably why they are wrong. Same approach I take to every single other type.

 

[laly37]

It depends on the situation. I have apologized in the past when I have gone too far (I am pretty good at hurting people with the truth and shake their confidence to the core) or if i have made them cried.
I have changed my attitude at work, when I had been told I have the diplomacy of a sledgehammer. I try to compliment people a bit more too.
I don't mind admitting that I "was wrong", if I am but I'll pass it as misunderstanding, miscommunication...
I love confrontation so will never walk away from it. I think that's more a man thing. My bf does that a lot.
praise and sugar coating works well on me.

 

[Brit]

With my dad (ESTJ), I use his own words against him. For example, we were talking about something that needed to get started that he was putting off, focusing on other things instead, so I used a simple point of wisdom from a book he was reading that he was completely raving about, using "the book's" logic as opposed to only my own. So, we laughed, and while he will never admit defeat aloud and in the moment, it always sinks in because you can see the effects of it later down the road. This is how it always goes.

Really, there's no point in outright arguing (although I always do lol). The best thing is to mention things a little more casually and let them sink in, because although they may not look like they're listening, they never miss a word. This is what I do with all of the ESTJs I know, in fact, with most of the argumentative people I know, and it typically works. The key is that you don't want to seem a threat to them - subtly plant seeds, and subtly it will grow. Then, when it does grow, you can tease them a bit... "Ohh...really? I thought you were all about ____? "

Lastly, with most people, outright arguing won't work, even if your logic is clearly superior. Why? Because people don't like to be wrong. Try to be on their same page, as painful as that may be sometimes, you may find a point or two you can agree with. Establishing common ground is a way to soften them a bit, then just ask non threatening questions that will make your point, etc.

 

[crazyeddie]

With my dad (ESTJ), I use his own words against him. For example, we were talking about something that needed to get started that he was putting off, focusing on other things instead, so I used a simple point of wisdom from a book he was reading that he was completely raving about, using "the book's" logic as opposed to only my own. So, we laughed, and while he will never admit defeat aloud and in the moment, it always sinks in because you can see the effects of it later down the road. This is how it always goes.

Really, there's no point in outright arguing (although I always do lol). The best thing is to mention things a little more casually and let them sink in, because although they may not look like they're listening, they never miss a word. This is what I do with all of the ESTJs I know, in fact, with most of the argumentative people I know, and it typically works. The key is that you don't want to seem a threat to them - subtly plant seeds, and subtly it will grow. Then, when it does grow, you can tease them a bit... "Ohh...really? I thought you were all about ____? "

Lastly, with most people, outright arguing won't work, even if your logic is clearly superior. Why? Because people don't like to be wrong. Try to be on their same page, as painful as that may be sometimes, you may find a point or two you can agree with. Establishing common ground is a way to soften them a bit, then just ask non threatening questions that will make your point, etc.

I think this is probably the most effective strategy mentioned in this thread so far

 

[Elaminopy]

The only ESTJ I think I know is my co-worker. He's old enough to be my dad, so the age difference doesn't help his view of me. Our arguments don't last very long because he usually ends it by shaking his head and saying something like "You're just going to think whatever you want. I don't agree with you, but whatever. There's no reasoning with you" and he walks away.

My wife is ISFJ and we have similar difficulties in arguing, only hers include almost exclusively "straw man" statements and end with her saying she doesn't want to argue and being hurt that I'm always attacking and criticizing her.

I haven't been able to "win" any arguments with either. My ISFJ will sarcastically say, "Fine, you're right, I'm wrong. Are you happy now? You're such an asshole."

With the ESTJ, he always thinks I'm wrong and discredits me because of my age, comparatively lack of life experience, apathetic attitude, inferior work ethic, and unique way of looking at things. The best I can do is frustrate him by stubbornly refusing to agree with his worldview and how he thinks everyone should be and openly explaining how I act and think contrary to it. He gets over it faster than I do, though.

They both seem to make very general statements that can mean any number of things depending on the context, but the miscommunication seems to come from the fact that the context I'm seeing and the context in their minds are different.

Example:
ESTJ: Your phone's over there on that rack.
Me: (sees 2 long racks side-by side, each containing many boxes, phones, chargers, cords, batteries, etc. Tries to find phone.)
ESTJ: No, it's to the right.
Me: (looks right, doesn't see it)
ESTJ: More to the right. It's all the way to the right.

This is the point where the context got messed up. He says "all the way to the right." His context, as I later discovered, was absolute, and he can only see his context. I understand that it can mean different things depending on context. The same description can mean:

• All the way to the right of where the phones are
• All the way to the right of the first rack, since the second rack holds other things
• All the way to the right of both racks, up against the wall
• To the right of the racks you are looking at, not even on those racks
• Keep turning right in a circle

Me: (looks to the right-most phone I can see)
ESTJ: No, all the way to the right.
Me: (looks to the right end of the first rack)
ESTJ: No, all the way to the right. Do you know what "all the way" means?
Me: (feeling like I'm now purposely taking him what I consider extremely literally based on how the layout of his racks make it likely it be, I look all the way to the wall on the right and don't see it)
ESTJ: "All the way to the right" means "all the way to the wall".
Me: (walks over to the wall and sees my phone behind a cardboard box) Oh, here it is, behind this box.
ESTJ: I told you it was over there. I could see it just fine.
Me: Yeah, but I looked over there and didn't see it. You didn't specify that I needed to actually walk over there to see around the box to see it.
ESTJ: Do I need tell you how to put one foot in front of the other?
Me: No, but you didn't say that I had to walk over there instead of look over there.
ESTJ: God, why do you have to nit-pick everything? You take everything so literally.
Me: Actually, it was because I wasn't taking it literally that I didn't get what you meant.
ESTJ: See, you're doing it right now! Always so literal.
Me: But seeing things with multiple different meanings is just how my mind works.
ESTJ: Well that's because you chose to be that way.
Me: If that's the case, then I chose to when I was too young to know what I was doing.
ESTJ: What, you were raised that way?
Me: No, how I was raised wouldn't have made any difference in how my brain works. If I chose for my brain to work this way, then it was when I was a baby and didn't know what I was choosing. And now that I've lived my entire life being this way, it's not something I can just change.
ESTJ: I can guarantee you that if the 3 of us were having this argument, you'd lose.
Me: Huh?
ESTJ: (smiles as self-proclaimed ENFJ walks in the room from behind me)
ENFJ: Yep, I'd win. That's how confident I am. I don't even know what you're talking about but I know I'd win.
ESTJ: Haha! (to me) You'd have no chance.
Me: Whatever. It's not who wins. It's who's correct. You may not have had an incorrect way of explaining it, but it's incorrect to claim that I was wrong for not understanding it and that your way is correct in all circumstances.
ESTJ: See how literal he takes everything?
ENFJ: Yeah, man, just give up. So anyway, when can we go do blah blah...

In my wife's case, she seems skeptical and therefore thinks I'm dishonest and avoiding personal responsibility when I claim my mind works certain ways. She shows obvious disbelief that I "don't have control over my own brain" when I didn't understand the first time something she said. When I pointed right back "of course I don't, just like you can't make yourself not get upset over these things," she gets more upset and says I just need to be right now matter what.

Sorry for digressing so much. I've had lots on my mind lately.

 

[pinkrasputin]

Wow. This thread taught me a lot. One of the main reason why I think I tend to attract in ESTJs in my life might be because I'm really not trying to win arguments, I'm only try to clear up misunderstanding. This is with the exclusion of when I am creating boundaries and my ESTJ has pissed me off because he is encroaching upon them. I'll explain in a bit.

Here is what you do to win an argument with an ESTJ: You make the ESTJ think he or she thought of the idea themselves.

This derives from Fi being the lowest function of an ESTJ. It means that in an ESTJ that hasn't fully developed, the ego will butt in and try to avoid feelings of inferiority, and support this Fi with Ne (meaning that they will come up with random reasons why their "logic" is correct), often outright inventing things that didn't even happen by filling in the blanks with Ne.

So to unermine his, you should use indirect compliments and indirect logic with the ESTJ. Rather than telling them how it is directly, you have to do so indirectly, using indirect sentence structure (google it for examples). This will force the ESTJ to consider what you said and figure it out first to understand the intended meaning, and in the process the ESTJ's brain will actually be using the same cognition as what is required for formation of the thought themselves. Thus the ESTJ will actually believe that the idea was formulated internally, rather than externally, and be more willing to embrace.

Dear God, thank you for this. I believe I must be dating one of these types. It was pretty bad in the beginning. I was wondering why he would get so defensive and unnecessarily competitive with me. I'm not a competitive person. Especially not in intimate relationships.

However, I am a teacher and I am used to giving advice or something that I think might help a person's complaint. When my ESTJ was complaining about some serious back issues, I went into a story about how I had gotten sciatica from training too hard and how hot yoga had really healed me forever.

My ESTJ took the part about me training hard and tried to one up me with stories about how he trained even harder. He would go over the top to establish this dominance. I could tell he felt threatened and he completely missed my point. At first, I thought this man was such an asshole. But instead I flat out said, "Look. You're pretty competitive. I am not trying to compete with you or brag about my training. I am used to seeing the best in others. I am sure you train very hard and you probably could teach me some moves (we both kick box). I'm excited for you to clean mine up! But that wasn't even my point. I was simply relating to you and trying to find a solution to your problems. I can't help it. I do this for a living."

Ever since I said that to him, he has never done it again. I basically had to wave a white flag in front of him. However, that wasn't the end to our problems.

When I try to lay it down that I have to get work done or have to spend more time with my child instead of seeing him, he will get very upset that I've changed plans. I keep trying to say, "I know you're disappointed, I'm disappointed too but I really need this time." He will not give up and he will say things about how my guilt as a parent is not getting me to understand his feelings, etc. In short he throwing a tantrum because he is not getting his way. I'm sure it does piss him off that he has set aside his time for me, and now I have had to tell I've decided I just can't do it. He has done it to me before too, but I can forget about bringing that into the picture. That would allow for way too many tangents. All I can do is use "broken record" stay calm and protect my boundaries. There is only so many times I am willing to say, "I'm not disregarding your feelings, I'm taking care of my daughter." I stick to my guns, and don't go. This speaks louder than any verbal argument I could have. A few days may pass, and he will contact me again and usually with much improved behavior.

There are times I have to tell him "that is a condescending tone you just used" and he will stop it and immediately come over and kiss me.

But he will never say he is wrong about anything. I don't really care if he does. Usually his laughter will tell me he knows it. Or the change in his behavior is usually a huge indicator.

I have a close friend who is an ESTJ. He has definitely won arguments with me, and if he sees my reasoning as better he promptly admits being wrong with a joke.
My ESTJ uncle is also like this, except he's funnier and once in a while teases me about how he's older and "should never be questioned."

This thread seems to display a lot of examples of unhealthy ESTJ's.
C'mon, they're not all like how people have been mentioning here...

Absolutely true. I don't have any communication problems at all with my ESTJ best friend. We seem to really get each other and have mutual admiration. I never feel like she is trying to work my sympathies. But then again, it's very easy to show weakness is platonic relationships and help each other out of it when we are feeling that way. My ESTJ girlfriend and I are very aware of each other's strengths and weaknesses, but we always encourage each other or lay it on the line when the other person needs to hear.

Usually, I am not threatened by other people's successes or intelligence. I will praise them for it. I just think the ESTJ I'm dating didn't know me well enough in the beginning. I probably don't know him well enough either. I just wanted to dump the whole "us" thing in the toilet because I thought he was an arrogant ass hole. In fact, that was my nickname for him for a while.

But ESTJs are definitely not all the same when it comes arguing. I've never felt like my ESTJ girlfriend's agenda was to ever win an argument. And she never needs to prove how smart she is to me, I tend to notice these things anyway and acknowledge it. Usually I reveal what's special about ESTJ women, before they even see it. I think they like that. They do the same for me.

 

[Le Beau Coeur]

That's an interesting question. With my limited experience with ESTJs all I can say is...maybe one can't.

 

[Laeona]

The recent posts have been so insightful.
@laly37 You provided a piece of information that I suspected, but wasn't sure about, that ESTJ's love confrontation. I always felt like on some level the guy I dated wanted me to engage more strongly in confrontation. The last thing I wanted was confrontation. I guess we really were doomed. We couldn't give each other what we wanted.
@Brit Your style is more how I communicate, planting seeds. But I have met people where this does not work. I think you would be interesting to observe, to see the combination of things you employ (wording, demeanor, etc.) when you engage ESTJ's. I have a feeling you have hit on some combination that works effectively.
@Elaminopy There is something about you that reminds me of me. What seems so obvious to everyone else is not obvious to me, and what is so very obvious to me, is missed by everyone else. And when I try to explain that, I get the feeling people would rather just not know. Eventually, this "Ah-ha!" moment came to me. It's this weird shift in how I look at people, and how I react to their obviously disdainful responses. Figures I wouldn't get this until mid-life. My emotional response lessened and I started using humor to point out the flaws in their communication style. "Oh there's my phone! I forgot to bring my x-ray glasses with me today. So silly." I don't always use it, but it's become a tool I employ alot more. My sister is an ISFJ. As she and I age, she's finally mellowing enough to begin understanding me and has become better able to articulate what's going on inside of her. I think that's all any of us really want, is to be understood. It's when we can't communicate that, that we get frustrated in our efforts. Btw, you characterized the personality types in your story so well lol I had to laugh.
@pinkrasputin You provided some incredible insight for me. I realize now how critical the "E" is for dealing more effectively with ESTJ's. An ESTJ tests the waters, pushes the boundaries, fights for what they believe is the right way and what they want. As an "I", I don't think I have the fortitude to continually fight to maintain my boundaries, or should I say, it tires me to continually have to. But an "E" can handle that confrontation without getting edgy like an "I" will. Your revelation about your friendship with an ESTJ also made me realize that gender, relationship, and personal development will all play a part in each ESTJ's interaction with others. I think I would like to find other ESTJ's, to round out my experience a little more.

 

[Dark NiTe]

That's an interesting question. With my limited experience with ESTJs all I can say is...maybe one can't.

I beg to differ. ESTJ, ENTP, doesn't matter, I am not intimidated.

 

[Le Beau Coeur]

I beg to differ. ESTJ, ENTP, doesn't matter, I am not intimidated.

But they will still feel they won. And who knows, maybe they did. They are uber confident.

 

[Dark NiTe]

But they will still feel they won. And who knows, maybe they did. They are uber confident.

Everybody who chooses to engage in an argument feels that they won, as the prerequisite (unless you're an ENTP :tongue: ) is believing you were right to begin with. INTJs aren't normally at a deficit of confidence, themselves

 

[Brit]

@Elaminopy Why stress yourself and bother arguing about each person's perspective and what this person meant or how this one took it? You are both being defensive and this method only pushes each of you deeper into your own stance. From what I read, it seems he wants you to be lighter, not take the conversation so seriously. While I agree with your viewpoints in that convo, it's not what he wants to hear. When he starts making defensive comments, turn them into playful insults instead. For example, when he said, "I could see it just fine," instead of reasoning on deaf ears, turn it into something playful like, "really? I thought you got one of your eyes replaced with a glass eye during the American Revolution?" (since you said he's old, that's the best I could come up with lol)

Or you could just get to the root of the issue in the beginning and avoid this whole debacle, "I need you to be more specific, spell it out for me." If he has something smart to say after that, just turn it into a joke, like "get your lazy butt up and get my phone since you claim to be able to see it...make use of those old legs before they give out " then giggle and give a big smile ;D (Yes, it may seem slightly rude when reading that over the internet, but you can pretty much say anything in combination with a big smile and get away with it especially with ESTJs...I've never known one to be offended with any sort of confidently delivered, occasional banter from another person...if anything, they LOVE it). Every single ESTJ I know, young and old, would and does respond well to this.

 

[SolokNikon]

You've won an argument when the ESTJ eventually does what you suggested/changes his opinion. Even though the ESTJ will never admit it in the moment of "defeat".

 

[Elaminopy]

@Elaminopy Why stress yourself and bother arguing about each person's perspective and what this person meant or how this one took it? You are both being defensive and this method only pushes each of you deeper into your own stance. From what I read, it seems he wants you to be lighter, not take the conversation so seriously. While I agree with your viewpoints in that convo, it's not what he wants to hear. When he starts making defensive comments, turn them into playful insults instead. For example, when he said, "I could see it just fine," instead of reasoning on deaf ears, turn it into something playful like, "really? I thought you got one of your eyes replaced with a glass eye during the American Revolution?" (since you said he's old, that's the best I could come up with lol)

Or you could just get to the root of the issue in the beginning and avoid this whole debacle, "I need you to be more specific, spell it out for me." If he has something smart to say after that, just turn it into a joke, like "get your lazy butt up and get my phone since you claim to be able to see it...make use of those old legs before they give out " then giggle and give a big smile ;D (Yes, it may seem slightly rude when reading that over the internet, but you can pretty much say anything in combination with a big smile and get away with it especially with ESTJs...I've never known one to be offended with any sort of confidently delivered, occasional banter from another person...if anything, they LOVE it). Every single ESTJ I know, young and old, would and does respond well to this.

This sounds like good advice, but I don't know. When I imagine doing that, something about it irks me. We don't usually argue. It only happens when part of his job or time depends on me. Or if I'm complaining about someone or a situation to him and he doesn't agree with my "bad attitude". But other times he will totally relate to me and it seems like we suddenly really get along. And then he seems to open up and smile and get more comfortable and starts being more buddy-buddy and then it feels awkward to me. I'm probably the problem, but it seems like I want to relate to him, but I don't want to be friends. I don't want to joke around too much and be pals. It gives me the same feeling as the thought of crying in front of him. When he's not being commanding and he's more subdued and asking me to do something, I kind of feel bad for him, like something must be wrong.

Our small department went on a "company outing" to see Star Trek in theaters (doesn't really happen anymore) and afterward we met at a restaurant and sat at the bar. Doug, the ESTJ sat there and Terry was between us. I'm not sure of his type, but I'm pretty sure he's ExxP. He got along with Doug about as well as I did, only in different ways. Doug opened up and talked about rough times growing up and other stories. It was really cool to hear about them, but only because he was mainly telling Terry. If he had been telling me without Terry there it would have seemed weird and awkward. I'm not normally like that, but with him, for some reason, I am.

 

[skbulletin]

I must thank everyone for writing down all their weakness, 8D I has now recorded it in my book of weakness, and shall use it all against you kufufu. lol jk.

Its interesting to read on what everyone's comment :] Really enjoyable, I'd say.
As for me, I never really argue. I mean honestly? You don't need to prove all that to make a ESTJ
(or any other type) submit that they are wrong.

If they are wrong, they know they are wrong, and even if they are clinging to all the whim,
blood & sweat & tears to prove you so, at the back of their heads, they know they are already wrong xD.

No one is losing face here, except for the one who is trying too hard lol.

 

[Tezkatlipoca]

"How to win an argument with an ESTJ"



Oxymoron of the decade.