Warning: This will be all over the place. I'm trying to sort out my thoughts, so I figure that throwing them all out there will give others more to freely associate with - which is really useful at times for all involved and creates interesting discussions. Answer any question present, all of them, provide opinions, personal stories...whatever Feel free to open it up past the INFJ/ESTJ dynamic as well, although it's a good starting point, since we don't share any cognitive functions. I'm posting in both forums, but my style will likely appeal more to the INFJ's. I am who I am

So. I've come to the conclusion that I'm likely looking for an ESTJ romantic partner if I'm being completely honest with myself. It is something that I've resisted admitting, and I've begun to explore why that is. As I was thinking it over, I found "Anne of Green Gables" on television (one of my favorites when I was younger) and turned it on at the scene where Anne flips out and literally slams the door on Gilbert for criticizing her writing, for anyone familiar with it. It provoked this thought process.

I think the problem lies in: I've been very sensitive to judgment from ESTJ's in the past. Most especially around about the pre-teen/adolescent years, and then in the corporate world. I've felt a strong sense of projection with many (your experience reminds me a lot of someone I knew once. I assume you're likely just like that person. I am done with my judgment of you now) and it's led to an oversharing defense mechanism, which can either be endearing or offputting. Luckily, I can usually tell which it is fairly quickly from person to person, which saves time for me, and also saves me from enduring projection (I'm my own quirky character now). Unfortunately, it's a role I've grown tired of playing (somewhat shocking at times free spirit). The oversharing is coupled with a sense of mystery as well (I will only overshare what I want to when I want to; my more public social networking pages are pretty sparse for example) in an attempt to basically force others to get to know me if they're interested. I've fallen down a few times in my life and I've made some radical decisions. I know how that is often perceived, and I recognize the negative projections that are likely being cast on me. It makes sense to me to protect myself from them, but I think that it also scares people off (what is she hiding?) Have others felt this? How do you walk that line?

In watching the Anne of Green Gables scene, I realized that another problem is that I was so splintered off from my Fi for a while that I was identifying too closely with my ideals. A rejection of them felt like a rejection of me, although that isn't the case. The more I allow myself to do what I want, feel what I'm really feeling, and just be happy, the more I recognize this and am open to criticism.

The only truly healthy relationship I've ever had was when I was younger, with (very likely) an ESTJ. I opened his mind artistically and he brought my buried warmth to the surface (highschool art geek/jock relationship that actually worked). I've been thinking a lot about what I want in a romantic partner, and I've realized that it's as simple as that for me. I want warmth. Humor, physicality, adventure. Someone who will draw me out and keep me grounded in the day to day. Someone action oriented. I don't mean that to be typist, as of course all types are capable of possessing these traits, but the package is one I've found most often in more traditionally minded ESTJ's. ESTJ attractions of mine have always had a way of both pissing me off (consider that your experience is subjective sort of thing with quite a few) and intimidating me (so self assured - which I then try to match with what is likely perceived as condescension at times). I doubt that the previously mentioned relationship would have gone as smoothly at this stage in my life. I've had much more time to construct and build ideals, and ESTJ's are more likely set in their ways. I don't want to accept defeat though, and I appreciate a challenge.

I'm at a point where I'm learning not to be so defensive of my views. If I appreciate those who can get me out of my head, I have to let them. There is still a huge block in communication though. Before I really know someone, any move on their part generates about 20 possibilities, instantly, in my mind for how I should respond to them. Due to Ni-Fe, I'm deeply interested in the conceptual and in stories of people. I've had friends from many walks of life, I've done a lot of psychological research, I've taken a lot of acting classes focusing on ultimate objectives. I realize that everyone is very unique. Possibilities from all of these experiences and knowledge spring forward. The more that exist, the harder it is for me to follow through on a hunch with any one of them. I trust that Ni has a way of seeing a situation from a broader viewpoint and creating quick and beneficial paths in the moment to moment, but I don't trust it as much in my communication with others anymore (I trust that often I sense how someone is feeling, we're all human, but not that I know how to respond to it, our motivations differ). It feels presumptuous. I think that too often it has to rewire itself admist a conflict that didn't need to be present.

I've been accused often in the past year of making assumptions, which is ironic, because I've been making them less than ever lately. I've just been more active in throwing different possibilities forward to see what responses they receive. Is there a better way of going about this? I've been door slamming for different reasons now - it's not so much from an Anne perspective, but out of frustration. If I can't figure someone or a relationship out, I don't know what move to make, and when I don't know what move to make, I go even further into my mind. I begin to come across as neurotic and insecure, but I'm not as a person, just with the situation. It's draining to feel that way, so I slam the door. I realize that ESTJ's aren't big on defining relationships or talking these sort of things out either, which fuels frustration. Once I get a handle on someone and my relationship with them, I can narrow the 20 possibilities down to just a few, I'm much more comfortable and at ease around them, and nothing is coming from left field. ESTJ's seem to need this ease up front, while I need the talking to get to the ease. I realize that trying to get to this though can feel manipulative or one-sided. I'm beginning to understand and appreciate some of the more guarded, honest (in that they are authentically grounded in what one is personally feeling) moves made by ESTJ types as well though. What to do?

Thank you to anyone who responds!

(Warning: I'm probably going to ramble on a bit about my own experience, but it should, hopefully, show you the side of another INFJ romantically involved with an ESTJ)

So, I'm actually "seeing" an ESTJ right now, and it can, obviously, be challenging at times. First of all, we automatically hit it off and had an awesome time with one another. I think there's something mysteriously exciting about being around someone so different from yourself yet, at the same time, remotely similar. At times, I really love being with someone who is an ESTJ; however, there are other times where I get frustrated.

I'll start with the positive: As I said before, there's something really exciting about being with someone who is so opposite of yourself. We automatically clicked with each other and wound up spending the whole day with each other after meeting. I really appreciate the honest and the bluntness, as being blunt is something that I have a hard time with doing myself. He so readily expresses his emotions, as well, and just put's everything out there (for lack of a better way of saying it). Most of the time, you know what he's feeling when he's feeling it. Everything just comes out on his face, whether he's feeling happy, angry or whatever. He's a really funny guy and genuinely does care about other people. He lives in the moment which is really exciting, as I often live in my head. It makes things a lot more spontaneous and adventurous. When I try to say something out of conforming to what he wants to do or what someone else wants to do (as us INFJs tend to do), he readily notices it, and he'll automatically jump to asking me what I really want, myself. So, that's slowly causing me to figure out what I want rather than conforming to what other people want (however, it's a long process!). Other than that, he's just a great guy full of humor, generosity and care. Everyday, he'll text me throughout the day, and since we started seeing each other, we've talked on the phone every night (except for a rare couple times).
Now, to the negative: There's always something going on, and it's hard for him to find the time to have one-on-one time, without something else going on. There's always a rush to get things done, and, sometimes, it feels like there's a rush when we're spending time together to move onto the next thing. He likes to get straight to the point, whereas I like gathering information and asking questions. So, I think he gets frustrated, at times, when I ask a lot of questions about something. Also, like I said earlier, I tend to tell people, "I don't know where to go for food (or whatever)," because I prefer letting the other person choose. So, that really frustrates him, and he'll start pushing me to "figure out what I want". Also, I know he doesn't mean to, but, at times, I feel like I'm being talked down to like a child: so, that's really frustrating for me because I hate being treated like I'm inferior (probably stems more from my own childhood than specifically being an INFJ, but I don't know). At times, he can be very blunt, and it can hurt my feelings (and he doesn't necessarily understand why). The only other thing is that he tends to express his care through actions rather than words, and I'm the type of person that needs affirmation through words as well as actions.

In the end, I think that it can make for a very deep and interesting relationship if you can work through the kinks. Hell, working through the kinks is part of the fun, to me. I wouldn't like being with someone that is "perfect", because there would be no complexity to the relationship. Part of a healthy relationship, to me, is making compromises and really learning and understanding someone else, who's innately different from yourself. It's a really fun process to understand someone, who in many ways is completely opposite from yourself, in my opinion. Everyone has different views though of what works for them, so I think you need to figure out what you really want from a relationship. Some people prefer being in a relationship that is completely peaceful, as it's more fulfilling to them. I think if you feel up to the challenge of working to understand behaviors and actions that you're not normally accustomed to, it can be a really great relationship that will help develop and you and the other person in ways that you're not at all used to.

 

Hi! I'm not really sure how to answer your question but I can tell you about my experience dating an ESTJ like TemptedFate did. Although I've dated other people, I feel like he's the only person I've really connected with. Our relationship is both challenging and grounding. Challenging because I know he'll never understand me; he has very firm beliefs that he doesn't question and he doesn't think outside of the box at all. He can't connect to my innermost thoughts and I feel like he'll never understand my 'core'. Grounding because I can be very emotional and indecisive. My feelings and thoughts often overwhelm me and I disconnect from reality very easily. He knows this and he looks after me. Even though he doesn't understand my thoughts, he understands how I react to them and makes sure I look after myself. In more detail:

Positives: He's very stable, practical and intelligent. We complement each other quite well; he keeps me grounded and I help him out emotionally. Because he can only see things from one point of view and he's not very expressive, I aid him in his emotional intelligence. We have a lot of fun together (he has a great sense of humour) and we have the same values. Overall it's very balanced.

Negatives: He doesn't understand/appreciate my thoughts. He thinks VERY traditionally and I think very out of the box, so he dismisses a lot of what I say as unnecessary fluff. This irritates me a lot because he talks down to me sometimes and makes me feel like I'm unintelligent. Although he is normally more decisive/productive than me, because he can't think of things from different angles a lot of the time he'll just work dogmatically towards something that could be solved more efficiently. I have to encourage him to see other points of views because he's naturally stubborn and this can be very frustrating. It's also frustrating for him, because he thinks I'm very unproductive and indecisive. He's not open emotionally; he shows his love through actions but I really need him to be articulate how he feels. This is a big problem for us because I feel under-appreciated a lot and he doesn't understand why.

 

Haha, it seems as though we have almost the exact same things listed in our negatives. It'll be interesting to see if the experiences of other people remain pretty similar.

 

The jungian type intertype relationship that I've found to be true align with what socionics predicts. Its prediction for the Te-Si and Ni-Fe personality types is "relations of conflict": INFJ Relationship Types

ESTJs and INFJs have no cognitive functions in common, which is what makes them so different in the first place. At first it may seem alluring and interesting due to having so many dissimilarities, but over time these gaps don't diminish. ESTJs just continue burning INFJs with their Te and being unresponsive to their Fe, which is so dear to INFJs. Imagine someone who is unresponsive to the primary way in which you communicate how you feel -- this is liable to seriously undermine INFJ's self-esteem in the long run. I've discovered that these "conflict relationship" don't always end in conflict, but they feel shallow and scorched.

 

ESTJs just continue burning INFJs with their Te and being unresponsive to their Fe, which is so dear to INFJs. Imagine someone who is unresponsive to the primary way in which you communicate how you feel -- this is liable to seriously undermine INFJ's self-esteem in the long run. I've discovered that these "conflict relationship" don't always end in conflict, but they feel shallow and scorched.

This was my experience with dating an ESTJ. After the inital phase of "Wow, we're so different! Yet so similar!" wore off, and real emotion came into play, I began to feel incredibly misunderstood. There were times when I felt she was going out of her way not to satisfy my needs, when she insisted this wasn't the case. She wasn't, of course, the honest truth was she simply didn't care about satisfying my emotional needs. Her own Fe was completely unimportant to her, so why should mine be any different? I needed to "get over it and grow up" as I was told once when I asked her why she seemed so disinterested in kissing me hello anymore.

She was, admittedly, a pretty immature and selfish ESTJ, and young, but it was an experience I'd never want to repeat. My emotions are an enormous part of me and I've learned that I must have them satisfied in a relationship if I want to have any chance of being happy.

 

@TemptedFate and @meiming8 - your responses are indeed very similar, and your experience reminds me of my own as well, up until I watched that damn movie and had the revelation that the negatives didn't bother me anymore. I have additional clarity now, thank you

Another warning, we're entering tangent land here (well, technically, since I was all over the place to begin with, maybe not )

I've spent the year trying to understand Fi, Te and Si (Ne comes more naturally to me). I've felt that I've had an individual breakthrough with each one that brought me to a real appreciation of them all. Fi isn't selfish, it's authentic, it's hearty, and hearty spreads happiness to others too. Te isn't egotistical, it's protective, and protection enables life and movement. Si isn't stagnant, it's preservative, it's the very glue of what separates us from collapsing into a wave and into each other.

My experience with Te was most interesting. I dug deep into the spiritual and subjective for a while. To the point of almost probably crossing over into paranoia. I've read that ESTJ's in the grip of tertiary Ne can feel like they're losing their minds, and some of the bolder, brasher behavior that I've in the past disliked suddenly became something I felt very sympathetic to. It was brave, it was directed. They weren't pacing the house in their bathrobe, they were out there living life. My experience suddenly felt much braver as well though. The more I let swim around in my mind (the more I considered) the more directed my conclusions could be once I sorted out my thoughts. The more confident I was in myself and even a healthy acceptance of my existence, if that isn't too cryptic and deep. The ESTJ's direction is pointed and then expands, whereas the INFJ's is expansive and can then come to a point. There's a meeting in the middle there. Just as I don't have to understand or agree with their initial point, they don't have to understand or agree with all that I've considered. It's no more my core than an individual opinion or value that they hold is theirs (and they have access to those same considerations, just as I have the ability to come to the conclusions that they have).

I assigned archetypes to the cognitive functions a few months ago in an attempt to better understand how they interact. I came up with this:

Te - King
Fe - Queen
Ni - Magician
Ne - Joker
Ti - Knight
Fi - Princess/Lover
Si - Parents
Se - The Artist and the Business Man

I realized that my Fe had become more of an Ice Queen. She had locked Fi up in a tower so high that it's warmth was no longer within her reach. I've been through the wringer at this point with hits to my confidence and self-esteem, and I can hold my own pretty well, just as she can. I then imagined Ti, as the Knight, coming to rescue the Princess. The only way that I could justify unlocking more of my Fi was through a rational Ti process, so it made sense. I let myself make some more selfish choices over the past year simply because they felt right, but only because I realized that my life philosophy could allow it. Ti carried Fi to the King, where they were all protected within his fortress. Then I imagined Te beckoning to Fe to join them. I realized that Fe had more become a Warrior than a Queen. The ice was her armor. Imagining it melting away as she joined the other archetypes was an incredibly beautiful and healing thought for me. I felt an internal balance like I've never felt before. I didn't feel the usual need to merge into a romantic relationship. I felt that I could simplify the process and override it a bit with logic more so than I've done in the past.

The main problem that I had with my last ESTJ dealing, although it was mostly a healthy relationship, was the brutal honesty as well. I was vindictive at times in the face of it. I dated others afterwards who handed me a lot of lies in pretty packaging. It dawned on me how sick it was that I could trust these people, and that I felt comfort in that. Only, I could trust them to hand me these packages. Honesty is much scarier. Honesty is much more erratic. It's a lot easier to get hurt without the expectation of lies. My inner world was so chaotic, that any additional external chaos was just too much. I've had to create a harmonious kingdom within to feel that I can effectively contribute to and deal with the chaotic world outwardly. I feel basically prepared for this though now. I've been more successful in accomplishing goals than ever before. I feel protective in my own way to the ESTJ mindset for the first time. I understand the need for outward control if it's similar to my need for tackling inner control.

My questions now I guess are more based around strategy. How to best get what I want communication wise. I know that I'm not making specific questions within that clear, but this is usually my process in attempting to do so. So again, to everyone, please feel free to do with all of that, and this thread, whatever you want I expect more free association here in INFJ land and I welcome it. Hopefully by the end of this I will have formulated some specific questions that I can post in the ESTJ forum, and maybe it will provoke some healthy thought for others interested in the individuation process too.

 

romantic attractions often find their source in unresolved childhood issues. we look for someone who is like one of our parents, but unlike them in certain ways that "fix" or "heal" some problem we could never sort out with that parent. is it possible you had a parent who was ESTJ-ish in temperament but very critical, and you are looking for an ESTJ who is not critical in order to sort that out? maybe it needs to be sorted out on its own, outside of a relationship setting, and then you will be drawn to a partner that really tends to work best for your personality? just an idea for consideration, which may not apply here, but might be helpful if it does apply...i know i have found that helpful in my own life, in determining whether a guy is really good for me or not.

i really hope you find the help you are seeking. criticism is painful, no matter how you cut it. i think adopting a different perspective of what motivates the criticism helps (as you have done in realizing how much projection can play a role in others criticizing). there are some people who criticize more, the more they care about you. it sure doesn't FEEL like caring...but attempts to improve another often accompany emotional investment in that person achieving success or having a good future (as how parents correct the behaviors of their children). i've seen that in play sometimes with some xSTJs i know, and maybe realizing concern for you could be prompting it (even when it's illegitimate criticism) would help a little?

 

@emerald sea - My dad is actually an INTJ. I realized that what you describe was likely happening - before this allowance towards an ESTJ attraction took place - when I attracted several who tested as INTJ into my life, despite their rarity, in several ways. I even dated one for a while who was an amazing person, he fit the checklist perfectly, but there just wasn't any passion. There was no warmth. I wanted to make it work, but it wasn't there. I've had a fascination with the INTJ type since I arrived at PerC, but after that encounter the mystique wore away somehow. There are plenty I really like and respect, but they're just people now. The NT power over me in general has disappeared and they have become, in my mind, the mere mortals that they really are I do have a good relationship with my dad though, so maybe there wasn't much to resolve.

I see ESTJ and ISTJ as very different beasts (you group them both into xSTJ). There is something very different about a Si dominant and a Te dominant. My attraction is towards the Te dominant. I don't find their criticism painful, in complete honesty. I find it motivating at this point in my life. I am not threatened by it and I can dole it right back to them in my own way. I'm realizing just how terrible I am at picking up on social cues (but your eyes aren't saying that! lol) and they are so giving and honest in providing clarification from my experience (the mature ones at least). It's refreshing. I'm a very honest person myself. If the approach and focus is different - growth! Fantastic

I appreciate your contribution though I agree that it is something important to consider (why am I feeling this attraction?)

 

@livingunique333 - Did you ever dish it back and tell her that she needed to grow up herself and give some more appreciation for and recognition to the deeper aspects of life? (Bonus points if you threw in something a little existential) Just curious How did that go if so?

I once went on a date with a (likely) ESTJ who at the beginning was judging everything about me (HR Management to Massage Therapy, huh? I, well, uh, hmm, to each her own...condescending face) and at the end was telling me that it was really sad that his favorite color was now blue instead of yellow (like it was when he was five). He kicked me in the ass to start a more disciplined workout regime alternatively.

 

@livingunique333 - Did you ever dish it back and tell her that she needed to grow up herself and give some appreciation for and recognition to the deeper aspects of life? (Bonus points if you threw in something a little existential) Just curious How did that go if so?

Well, sure. There was a lot of back and forth. It was a big part of why I was attracted to her in the first place. It was a lot of fun

Later on, though, when we entered the part of the relationship where things have to be "kept up" with, there were some fundamental disconnects. She asked me once if I was feeling insecure about our relationship. I said that I was but that the reason why confused me a bit. I knew she loved me, but she never really showed it. I tried to explain that I liked it when she would randomly do something sweet for me. She said now she never would since I brought it up since it would just make her feel like she had to do it. I shouldn't question her feelings for me. I told her she was right, I shouldn't question her feelings, but for some reason I couldn't explain why I was. I asked her to try for me, that it would mean a lot, and that I would work on why I was feeling this way. I got a non-committal reply and she never really did.

That was when I learned about emotional investments in relationships. Mine is always high in a relationship with someone I use the "L" word on, and I need to know that their emotional investment is similar. In relationships since, I've been with girls that did this and I never felt anything out of place.

The criticism of me wasn't really what bothered me. She cheated at one point and I took her back (stupid mistake of course) and she would occasionally talk about the things he did that she preferred over things I did. She never meant it as something that was supposed to undermine my confidence, but it did (why wouldn't it?).

She also would make me feel, constantly, like I had to do more and be more than I was for her to truly be attracted to me. She was also passive-aggressive in many ways and would say things like, "I'm always way more emotional than the guys I'm with. It really annoys me to have to deal with emotions from someone I'm dating." instead of just telling me I was coming on too strong.

Again, she was young and immature and lacked tact and the ability to be committed, but dating her has made me stay far, far away from ESTJs since. It was like a month and a half of fun and bliss, and then about 6 months of near-torture sprinkled with occasional moments of happiness and connection. I felt like I was shooting Old Yeller when we broke it off.

Oh, one other thing I just remembered: when we were first together, she would rave about these little love letters I would send her. As things went on, I sent far fewer of them (maybe 4 or 5 over a 6 month period) but just enough for it to be occasionally regular. When we broke up, she confessed that my letters became "words on a page that she pretty much glanced over".

 

So, I went to the Ne doms last night for additional clarification on what I've been trying to wrap my head around...

http://personalitycafe.com/enfp-forum-inspirers/134624-using-ne-get-feel-others.html#post3404934

http://personalitycafe.com/entp-forum-visionaries/134629-using-ne-get-feel-others.html

...and I made a realization that I haven't been using Ne properly after all. I said previously that I thought I had a handle on it, but I was wrong. I've understood my shadow functions in theory for a while, but I've had profound experiences with Te, Si and Fi that actually sort of kicked them "on" lately I believe. I realized that I've yet to let myself fall into the flow of Ne. Ne is trust, and this is my problem. I don't trust myself.

I ended an engagement over the summer. Since that time I've gone into total hiding. I don't post to Facebook, I rarely go out, I've been pushing people away (hard realization that one was, going back through text messages over the past few months from friends and family, all of whom I had determined were unsympathetic, and realizing that I had been the one creating the wall and that they were all actually being very patient). I've attracted a number of guys to me anyway though. One after another they've appeared and sort of interjected themselves into my life in various ways while I try to figure things out. It's been bizarre synchronicity with a few, like I've been this vortex or vacuum or something.

Ni-Fe is the ultimate receptive type. Te-Si is the ultimate penetrating type. They represent masculine and feminine energy (free from gender obviously, but the yin/yang). I had a conversation with one ESTJ in where he admitted that he didn't trust anyone, and I admitted that I didn't trust myself. I realized why that is. There is so much that has been floating around in my mind (there always has been, but especially lately). It's been a really dark place. It's like I've been trying to protect others from it, and protect myself from adding on to it. I've been afraid to release it into the world, so I've been very closed off as I try to fill it with light, and then one thought at a time. ESTJ's are concerned with mastering their surroundings because they are trying to guard themselves from that very darkness and negativity. We're both in flow. I'm in the flow of my mind and I close myself off from those who disrupt me from it. They're in flow with their surroundings, and they often close themselves off to those who disrupt them from that - who are unpredictable. I realized that this isn't the flow that I want anymore. I want a balance of the two. I want to relinquish some control.

The ESTJ types that have come into my life have likely been forcing me even more so into myself though. This is weird, but I realized this morning that every one (there have been four) has had a debilitating, life threatening or severe accident or injury recently. It's like they've had a taste of the darkness, maybe those blocks were even created by a certain energy they were putting out there in curiosity, and they sense that I'm the red pill or something.

After drawing me out, after several unsuccessful attempts, they have then either acted rude or obviously very interested but also kind of freaked. One dude asked me out for a month and a half straight. I finally gave in and agreed to go out with him, only for the first half of the date to basically go like this:




Something snapped in me and I took to acting utterly shocking. I was so annoyed that he would be as persistent as he was only to act that way (this was the dude who didn't approve of my career move, although he knew full well that I had made it beforehand - why ask me out if you disapprove of my life choices?) Ironically, this kind of worked, and we started to have a good time. It was like he wanted me to challenge him. I can't determine if it's because he wanted to validate his world view that those vegetarian massage therapist types are indeed kooky (yes, you've figured it all out!) or because he sensed in himself a need for someone to bring a fresh perspective, knew I had one, and was attempting to pull it out of me. I'm not sure if I'm the final frontier to be conquered, or a tempting siren song that's just ultimately too terrifying. Either way, it's not something I've been comfortable identifying with - feeling as if I'm something chaotic to be outwardly controlled or that there is something innately scary about me.

The last ESTJ dude was actually very sweet, which is unfortunate, because he probably got the worst of the crazy.

At that point:

It was because I knew he was a good person, who hadn't really done anything wrong, though, that I felt forced to look at my own behavior. I realized I had to get forcible with my door slams because everyone trying to wedge their way in was forcible as well. I started to get defiant in the face of perceived control because controlling types were so drawn to me.

I had begun to identify with my shocking behavior after all I realized. I could run from them, but not myself. I feel like I've been on the precipice of trusting myself, but this belief that there is something inherently awkward or off-putting about me was keeping me from taking that final leap. I accept that there's not. I just need to relax.

Maybe an ESTJ attraction is in the cards, but maybe it was just necessary to come to this realization, and to feel a more protective softness for a type that generally peeved the hell out of me for such a long time.

A friend invited me to an improv festival to watch her perform tomorrow night, so maybe that will give me the final kick in the pants that I need with Ne to feel like I'm in a more balanced flow.

 

I had begun to identify with my shocking behavior after all. I could run from them, but not myself. I feel like I've been on the precipice of trusting myself, but this belief that there is something inherently awkward or off-putting about me was keeping me from taking that final leap. I accept that there's not.

I absolutely love reading your posts. So well-worded and thoughtful.

This was a huge key for me about two years ago. I had to learn that sometimes I need to let go and just have faith in myself. I get into this cycle where I start to second guess then I second guess the second guessing and before I know it, I'm so wrapped up in the possibilities of the possibilities that I never get anything done.

What I had to learn to do was accept the possibility that I might end up being wrong and hurting myself or someone else. I might say or do the wrong thing at the wrong time. As a heavy planner, this was a devastating realization for me. However, if I didn't occasionally throw caution to the wind and just go for it, I'd never end up going anywhere.

I'm not sure that your self-trust issues are in any way similar to what I had, but I do know how daunting they can be to face. It was a very difficult thing to come to terms with. I'm sure someone who wants to learn about herself as much as you do, and who is willing to work so tirelessly to do so, will be successful. I'm rooting for you

 

Ye I can see INFJ+ESTJ working out, problem is ESTJ is not all that relatable, because they're basically brick-through-window, while INFJs are more roundabout and dancing-in-fields, is this making sense?

But I can see it working out and I see no reason to be ashamed of it

I do see one pitfall tho, that you can imagine your ESTJ guy to such a degree that no such guy would exist

so do try to stick with what's available in real life

also know that everyone has flaws and you need to be able to deal with the ugly side of ESTJ and you probably already know what that's like

 

Ye I can see INFJ+ESTJ working out, problem is ESTJ is not all that relatable, because they're basically brick-through-window, while INFJs are more roundabout and dancing-in-fields, is this making sense?

Yes, I've basically said this in my posts

Before they often had me running and screaming for the hills of my mind, but lately they've had more of an effect like this:

In the past, when I really did have some stuff to work out, it was presumptuous and annoying when people acted like that ("We just need to get you back down the right path is all!" Really? Define right), but I kind of appreciate it now - more just the energy behind whatever the intention is.

I'm realizing this might just be a broad momentary attraction for me because of what I've been going through. Maybe not though. Some great revelations and understanding either way.

 

edit: apologies this is kind of me just rambling semi-coherently.

M'dear @Veggie I couldn't decide whether I was even qualified to talk on the matter, seeing as I know very few ESTJs—most of whom scare the bejeezus out of me—however, as I sat there in my cozy, wicker-bottomed chair last night in the throes of reading about peptic ulcer disease, hepatic encephalopathy, and other maladies of this fleshy shell we call a human body, I started jotting down some ideas on a notecard. It might get out of hand (and I'm not sure how relevant this is, lol), but I'll try to keep it short. Or not. Eh, let's face it, you handed me—one of PerC's resident novel writers—the keys to the insane asylum so all I will say before starting is: Muahahahaha...

Chapter 1: Conflict, Conversing, and Carpe Diem

I was on the bus today, which is what galvanized me into posting whatever monstrosity this is I happen to be writing. An anecdote, if you will:

As luck would have it, I ended up taking the slow bus, today. The bus is fascinating to me because in those 30 minutes or so, I get to glimpse and be a part of a dynamic community forged into an ever-shifting roster of passengers—most are strangers coming and going from each others' lives without a word. They are like molecules of water rushing down a river—touching, ever so briefly, then whisked smoothly away. Most bus-rides are like that... tranquil moments with people going about their own business. Yet every so often, those eddies of conflict and suffering bubble to the surface; those moments are like a scalpel briefly exposing the human soul beneath its insulating guise; its persona of social niceties. Take the bus long enough and you'll hear stories between two strangers, two old friends, anybody, really filled with a kind of startling clarity... I remember two girls talking about an estranged friend they had:

"You know she died, right?"
"My god, how did it happen?"
"She got shot in the neck"
"Jesus"
"—boyfriend just pulled her in front of him"
"What the..."

Today was no different. A man gets on raving mad. Not the I'm-going-to-yell-in-random-people's-face mad, but the madness of being overwhelmed by the world. "How d'fuck am I s'posed to support my mother and my smokin' habits?" I can't remember everything he said, but he was cussing up a storm. He mentioned something about getting cocaine. An older lady gets on and he starts harping on her and harassing her, following her to the back of the bus. A father near the front with a crying baby gets up—eyes all intense—with his wife automatically getting up to block his way. "Yo man, that's NO WAY TO TREAT A LADY." To which the angry man exclaims: "Man you have no idea what you talkin' bout. This here is my auntie." And I think she really was his auntie, because the next thing I hear is the little old lady yelling at the man in the front and muttering something about about "my pussy." I think she was asserting that she could stand up for herself. At any rate, the dispute died down as quickly as it came, replaced by a scene of an old man carrying a bible, helping an old woman secure her wheelchair.

I illustrate this admittedly sketchy (and confusing) anecdote because I kept coming back to the idea of conflict and its ebb and flow. Not simply fighting amongst people, but internal conflicts, external tension (that electricity in the air), and the dissonance between drastically different points of view. How much of the above conflict was the result of miscommunication? Without context, it's tough to know why a person is feeling what they're feeling, and perhaps this is how confrontation is borne—out of genuine misunderstanding. And there needn't, I think, be the stigma that confrontation/conflict is an inherently "bad" thing. If anything, I would consider it therapeutic, if both parties harness it with the right attitude.

I am always fascinated by those heated discussions between people that border the fine line between intimacy and hostility... Those conversations where conflicting emotions are amalgamated; where things are ambiguous. It's like, I guess, how I can love and loathe a person simultaneously. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say there are facets of them that bother me and facets I adore. I'm hesitant to adopt the "I can read people instantly" INFJ label, because it feels incredibly pompous to say I've "figured out" such-and-such person in about 10 minutes of interaction (my INTJ sister pointed that out to me). People are complex and I'm constantly reminding myself that Ni can be as stubborn as a mule in heat (I love that imagery for some reason XD). This is why I've started moving away from MBTI... at least on the surface. I think of MBTI as the car I drive and Enneagram as the road I've chosen. It's good to read the instruction manual and know how to drive, but at some point, I have to put down the manual and just drive on the frickin' road, already.

I've found myself having this internal conflict with an INTJ friend of mine in class. I think INTJs can be some of the neatest people to talk to. Heck, one of them basically introduced me to MBTI and the other is one of my best friends (my sister, haha). I love the wit, skepticism and sarcasm, coupled with the calm, quiet exterior. Yet this classmate of mine... she is a workaholic and, to be honest, a bit of a bore (ugh, that feels like a jerk way of putting it). Often, conversations seem to magically worm their way back to the topic of school. School school school. That sort of puritanical all-or-nothing mentality kind of bewilders me. I still have a tough time understanding how people can say things like: "School is my life" or "Work is my life"... I am always taking breaks and have a near-even split between leisure and study time (I feel like the slacker of the class, to be honest, although I do decent enough, grade-wise).

Friendship—and any human relation—is a two way street. Everybody knows, or should know that. Applying that is the tricky part and requires communication. If there's one major weakness I have—and I have many—it's that I get trapped in my head and get this absurd belief that if I think hard enough, people will somehow psychically hear me. So stupid, and so irrational XD. So this past 6 months or so, I've been pushing myself to just talk with people—to communicate. Professors, classmates, homeless people, strangers on the bus, family, friends... And I'm not restricting myself, either. Facebook, Skype, PerC, in-real-life, phone... the medium is irrelevant; what matters is the connection to people's consciousness and creating open dialogues.

I have admittedly been avoiding this INTJ friend of mine because she's kind of annoying in that she'll piggyback off a lot of what I post on FB (usually with some lame pun or obvious statement) and I just got the impression, to be honest, that she's using Fe or something and is "trying too hard." And lo and behold, here I am being a total jerk, you know? I am constantly going on about pluralism and how we should have tolerance for many, many walks of life and here I am building resentment for someone just because their life philosophy is different. I needed (and still do need, for that matter) to correct this misaligned mentality of mine.

I think it's easy to get into that "silent treatment" mode, which has deteriorated more friendships in my life than I can count. Not silence as a reprieve, but as a frickin' wall... that's the dangerous kind. So rather than ignore this friend of mine, I've been trying to do the opposite... to face the things that annoy me honestly (and tactfully, I hope). I'm trying to chat with her on facebook every so often and encourage her to be more spontaneous and pursue more extracurricular pursuits. And at the same time, I'm learning from my classmates to be a bit more responsible, haha. The slacker helps the studious ones and vice versa. Yin-yang, but you already knew that one, I'm sure. What is of the essence was for me to actively pursue that balance... carpe diem!

Chapter 2: Independence and Bravery; the Cousins of Openness and Flouting Convention?

Independence: not in the anti-social sort of way but in the I-can-stand-on-my-own sort of way (ethos)... the sort of independence of thought where you're not just following the flock (haha, that kind of rhymes).

Bravery: not in the I-can-do-anything sort of way (arrogance) but in the I'm-willing-to-try-anything sort of way (courage). Not "anything goes," but "anything is possible."

These are two qualities that I find unbelievably sexy in a person. Opinions are attractive, but so is the courage to reevaluate them; I admire value systems that are capable of bending and swaying in the wind without snapping (strong, yet supple, lol). I've sort of abandoned this idea that I can change anyone's mind... Not directly, at least; I throw my [crazy] ideas out there, in the hopes that they may influence thought, but ultimately, a person's ability to change must, I think, come from within. In other words, I believe the "carrot or stick?" question is a trick one because I would choose neither a material reward nor abject punishment to influence behavior/thought... I would choose a more Socratic approach. Here's a word from my girl Audrey Hepburn:

You have to look at yourself objectively. Analyze yourself like an instrument. You have to be absolutely frank with yourself. Face your handicaps, don't try to hide them. Instead, develop something else.

I admire challenges to convention. Those enfant terribles like Andy Warhol or Marcel Duchamp that brazenly explored uncharted territory in spite of what was considered "appropriate" or "best." MBTI typology is rife with those sorts of generalizations (stereotypes) that say such-and-such types fit together well... like some horoscope that tries to simplify the complexity of humans to often-ideal circumstances. That's the problem with a lot of scientific research is that it attempts to simplify complex systems to a single variable-response... Useful? Yes. All powerful? I doubt it. In the real world, there are frequently a bajillion variables to consider.

I really can't add specifics on the INFJ-ESTJ dynamic, but I wish you the best in this pursuit. Show 'em that it can be done! I have an ISTJ dad, however, and I will reiterate MBTI can create those unfortunate stigmas and stereotypes. My dad has good artistic talent and I can talk with him about pretty abstract stuff. He may be less perceptive to some of my "out there" ideas and interests, but it's not like there's a wall between us. He does tire me out pretty good, though .

"Averages lie; why should you care about how everyone else did? Your grade is the one that matters." --- Microeconomics professor

Chapter 3: Impermanence? Mindfulness? The Four Noble Truths?

"Everything that is new is thereby automatically traditional" ---- "TS Eliot" quoted in Band of Outsiders

Or: The only constant is change. When I look back through history, I'm reminded that things are, for the most part, in flux. Times change, for better or for worse and I would actually rather employ Dickens' line: It was [and still is] the best of times and the worst of times. Nostalgia is wonderful, but I think we need to accept that we can't freeze time or preserve it in a glass bottle. I never really have purely "good" or "bad" days. Neither do I have "so-so" days. I have days filled with the good, the bad, and the non-descript. For me, it's a question of not making value judgments like "those were the days." Whether something (a relationship, a work of art, etc.) is permanent or more specifically whether it "lasts" is uncertain. I think, however, we need to be at peace with the myriad of possibilities that could arise... To be simultaneously attached, yet detached. To be aware of the good and the bad. To see the glass as half full and half empty.

I think the concept of mindfulness is often simplified to "living in the moment." I feel it runs a bit deeper than Thicht Naht Hanh's adage of wash-the-dishes-to-wash-the-dishes, however. Mindfulness, I think, is being aware not only of the present, but the past and future; to what is seen and unseen; what is possible and impossible... Essentially, situational awareness. When I took my quizzes today, for instance, I tried to avoid tunnel vision and see things holistically. This meant coming to terms with what I knew and didn't know and being at peace with that. I see tests/quizzes not as hurdles to overcome, but opportunities... springboards to further my own development. I know I've had a tendency to "put up walls" and to compartmentalize myself, which is something I've been trying to break out of.

I'm not Buddhist myself, but my sister is. A lot of what I'm getting at is being at peace with the likelihood that things may be impermanent or at least being aware of that possibility. What's better? A short, healthy relationship that ends with the two learning from each other constructively? Or... years of this:

Incidentally, Ingrid Bergman's also in a movie called Notorious, which is kind of a gender reversal... In that one, she's the one doing the manipulating (granted, it's subtle... this was the 1940s, after all).

Guh, I feel like I'm not explaining this well, but I recommend the documentary Rivers and Tides on the artist Andy Goldsworthy. It's kind of a visual of what I'm trying to get at. I think it's on youtube for free.

Chapter 4: "I know that I know nothing" or The Iceberg

Socrates was an OG, no doubt about it. My law class last semester had a pet answer it would often employ: It depends. I loved that answer because it affirmed my belief that the system, flawed though it may be, still has the people's best interest at heart and more importantly, recognized that people could not be so easily compartmentalized. There needs to be wiggle-room.

I think honesty is important, but maybe even more so is acceptance and trust. I'm not sure I jive with the whole openness-in-everything deal. Secrets aren't intrinsically bad and there is, I think, a beauty in not seeing the whole picture. My creative writing professor would always tell us a poem was like an iceberg... part of the magic was in its ambiguity. I think we need to respect one another in regards to privacy and allowing another person to open up on their terms. It's like in Like Water for Chocolate where the guy asks Tita why she doesn't talk, to which she replies:

"Because I don't want to."

I think that as important as it is to ask why, we must be willing to say: why not? (within reason, of course ).

Understanding and common ground between people is good, but more importantly, there should at least be acceptance. Celebrate the shared similarities and passions. Yet celebrate the differences of opinion and the quirks, as well. I imagine that any relationship or even group of people (a team) functions best like an orchestra... each piece is simultaneously independent, yet harmonized with the other.

 

*Thread Resurrection*

Inspired by Jennifer Lawrence's Oscar win (<3). I looked up "Silver Linings Playbook" (what she won for) and it was one of those "uh..." moments. Hi life (I mean not all of it, but the underlying theme). I didn't know what the movie was about until now.

I've attracted damaged (in some ways) ESTJ types because I've been a damaged (in some ways) INFJ. I'm actually interested, deep down, in what they have to say about bucking up, however harsh, and they're likely actually interested, deep down, in what I have to say about just letting yourself feel and express things and in going with the flow of this mess that is life. You will never fully prepare or plan for it. I don't feel like I've had any other choice though but to try to lately, really grabbing it by the horns, and likely, for them vice versa, in going with the flow. Are we damaged, or have we been given a blessing in disguise? The blatant honesty on both sides though... It's real, and real is hot. It requires attention.

edit: apologies this is kind of me just rambling semi-coherently.

M'dear @Veggie I couldn't decide whether I was even qualified to talk on the matter, seeing as I know very few ESTJs—most of whom scare the bejeezus out of me—however, as I sat there in my cozy, wicker-bottomed chair last night in the throes of reading about peptic ulcer disease, hepatic encephalopathy, and other maladies of this fleshy shell we call a human body, I started jotting down some ideas on a notecard. It might get out of hand (and I'm not sure how relevant this is, lol), but I'll try to keep it short. Or not. Eh, let's face it, you handed me—one of PerC's resident novel writers—the keys to the insane asylum so all I will say before starting is: Muahahahaha...

Perfect Exactly what I was hoping for I loved everything you posted. As I told you before, I wrote notes for a response, but they've all sort of faded into other points now. (I'll prob come back again later though with the others - EDIT, yes, see below). I think the main point that came to mind that I'm still dwelling on is how sad this is:

Nowadays she (the "Little Princess") would be schizophrenic and in need of meds. In the past she was a creative story teller and had a vast inner world. This is all we have control over. I can't help but think about how those who don't have much other than their inner world to rely on are often times the most judgmental to it. It's what would bring them salvation - building and nurturing a creative, individual world, one which nobody can take from you. I get that there is some jealousy and resentment towards those who are given (or make) the time to envision and explore one though if intolerance towards such "nonsense" is programmed at a root level. ("I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers" - John Rockefeller)

Bootcamp (so sad):

I actually liked this movie, Snow White and the Huntsman, I thought that the symbolism was great:

At 4:02 they enter the "sanctuary" after being trapped in the dark forest. That was my favorite part. We always have that sanctuary available to us if we let ourselves be led there.

Below - synchronicity depiction?

I think the concept of mindfulness is often simplified to "living in the moment." I feel it runs a bit deeper than Thicht Naht Hanh's adage of wash-the-dishes-to-wash-the-dishes, however. Mindfulness, I think, is being aware not only of the present, but the past and future; to what is seen and unseen; what is possible and impossible... Essentially, situational awareness. When I took my quizzes today, for instance, I tried to avoid tunnel vision and see things holistically. This meant coming to terms with what I knew and didn't know and being at peace with that. I see tests/quizzes not as hurdles to overcome, but opportunities... springboards to further my own development. I know I've had a tendency to "put up walls" and to compartmentalize myself, which is something I've been trying to break out of.

That article was awesome, thanks for it. I realized that Ne is trusting all of the different aspects of my persona to co-exist harmoniously, to sort of tag team each other to show up and display themselves as is appropriate and useful. To not identify too much with any one archetype. It's difficult when you've explored and are in tune with many. I get the warnings that actors are given when playing dangerous characters. It's really as simple as not compartmentalizing though. There is flow within that, and flow is the meat of the social playbook. Within flow there is confidence, happiness, strength - and that is what we are all attracted to in each other ultimately. I've been complicating things, this process has made me see that.

Guh, I feel like I'm not explaining this well, but I recommend the documentary Rivers and Tides on the artist Andy Goldsworthy. It's kind of a visual of what I'm trying to get at. I think it's on youtube for free.

I liked this. Build anyway despite inevitable destruction. I think that my tendency to see the eventual destruction has kept me from building as vigorously as I could in areas of my life. This is probably another reason for my attraction to the ESTJ mindset currently.

I imagine that any relationship or even group of people (a team) functions best like an orchestra... each piece is simultaneously independent, yet harmonized with the other

Yes! Let each color of the rainbow shine vibrantly, because together they will make a more beautiful rainbow

I think we need to respect one another in regards to privacy and allowing another person to open up on their terms. It's like in Like Water for Chocolate where the guy asks Tita why she doesn't talk, to which she replies: "Because I don't want to."

This is my final hurdle here. Learning to do this calmy and respectfully without the defensiveness soaked in insecurity. I'm on my way. I feel confident in my own values again, in the importance of the inner world, while still appreciating this new mentality I've been adopting.

I realize that in understanding Fi, I began to take a Fe approach in wanting to respect and honor it more in others - but I have to continue to do it for myself as well. Getting along with ESTJ types is going to be about tweaks in communication, which I'm getting better at, but ultimately it's just about being a more polished, responsible, confident and happy version of myself.

 

Of all the types with the Te,Ne,Fi and Si combination ESTJ are probably my favorite and the only one apart from the ENFPs that makes some sort of sense to me at least from a distance. I like that ESTJs are so sensible, reliable and stable, I like that they have a strong fighting spirit and discipline and determination. I do not really think that they generally appreciate Ni & Fe though and I really dislike the way they seem to lack the capacity to self reflect.

I feel like there is a lot I can learn from ESTJs in terms of work ethic and organisational skills but I really cannot see a close personal relationship with this type working well long term, the differences are just too much to bridge but I can see how an INFJ could be attracted to this type, they are also the embodiment of what western society says we should want in a partner.

 

I'm really happy to hear about your situation and where you've come @Veggie. My ESTJ was incredibly damaging and hurtful to me, but the relationship helped change me for the better in the end. The happy times we had, though they were sadly few and far between her very manipulative and passive-aggressive tantrums, are more sweet and less bitter as the time rolls on. She was an unhealthy ESTJ and I was an unhealthy INFJ. That's not a partnership that has any chance of success.

I saw Silver Linings on Friday night and really enjoyed it. The idea of love fixing a person isn't one I agree with of course, but the story was well told. I've heard the book is better (of course) but I haven't read it yet.

One last thing: that Dali quote is one I used to really like as a teenager. I haven't heard it in years. I'm glad you posted it.

 

I'm really happy to hear about your situation and where you've come @Veggie.

Thanks

My ESTJ was incredibly damaging and hurtful to me, but the relationship helped change me for the better in the end.

I'm glad to hear that too, and I'm sorry you had to get there the hard way (there's more value in that though).

I saw Silver Linings on Friday night and really enjoyed it. The idea of love fixing a person isn't one I agree with of course, but the story was well told.

I don't believe in it either. I see it more as this quote by Jung:

"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed."

I don't think transformation can happen any other way. We're just floating through time and space otherwise. We need those moments of impact, those mirrors, those interactions. We're likely to take them to heart and to introspect about what they mean more when they make us feel something on a deeper level.

Ah anyway. I'm going to bed alone tonight. It feels good to have come to this happy place despite that. Come and try to take it from me now world

One last thing: that Dali quote is one I used to really like as a teenager. I haven't heard it in years. I'm glad you posted it.

It's a good one!

 

Hi everyone,
I am a new ESTJ to Personality Café. I thought an ESTJ perspective might be helpful to this forum. If I have assumed too much, then I apologize ahead of time. OK, here it goes… I see the world as a rapid information producing animal. I gather all that information and use it to enhance my daily life, hoping to integrate my feelings along the way for balance. I have been married to an INFJ for 11 years and it does not look like we will last the summer. Living with in INFJ is like living with a person from another universe. As an ESTJ, I want to hear your concerns, feelings, problems, issues, and general statements but I want the initial details in less than 2 minutes or less than 250 written words (slightly facetious. 275 is fine). To an ESTJ, initial details beyond that are likely superfluous details and just keeping the conversation from progressing or coming to its logical completion. If you ask my opinion, then expect my opinion. Don’t expect me to be an affirmation machine. If I have a different opinion it does NOT MEAN I LOVE YOU LESS or I HATE YOUR OPINION. It means I have a different opinion. That’s it. I would like you to engage me in a healthy debate. Maybe I will change my opinion or you will change yours. Maybe not. Occasional differences of opinion are not only welcome but will likely make me think less and feel closer to you; increase my desire to support you with your desires; and really want to meet your needs. If I really FEEL that you can accept a differing opinion then I will, again, think a little less and feel emotionally safe with you. The sex will likely become even more “athletic and passionate”, according to one typological website. It will also likely generate spontaneous expressions of love and appreciation for you. I might just hit the mute button on the TV, turn to you and say, “I really like who you are. I’m glad I get to spend time with you.” I also tend to want to move around and not sit around very often. Sometimes I really want to just sit around but that is the minority of the time. This might sound like a nightmare to INFJ’s. I hope getting inside an ESTJ’s brain is helpful but remember I am just one ESTJ. Have to stop now. I am over my own 250 word limit.