[Soul Kitchen]

I was looking at the diagrams on the SYMLOG site. Are you referring to the MBTI Manual tables?

Keirsey got his temperament dichotomy correlations by tracing temperament theory from Galen and Plato (the “four types of men”) all the way down, by common behaviors. The biggest influence was Ernst Kretschmer, who had his four character styles, which were divided by a pair of categories he linked directly to S and N. You also had similar systems by Eduard Spränger and Eric Adickes (who had something that amounted to “cooperative/pragmatic”). Before that, Kant linked the Galen temperaments to a new factor he called “Beauty recognition”, which tied together diametric opposites Sanguine and Melancholic. Plato's original system was divided into “imaginative vs observant“.

So this addition of perception to nhe temperaments that created basically a second temperament matrix where opposites shared something in common. It would turn out that Galen's matrix (using classic I/E) would be the more familiar “social” temperaments (now embodied in type as “Interaction Styles”), while Plato's styles wele basically “trades“ (Artisan, etc.)

For one thing, Keirey didn't say NT was Choleric; he said it was Phlegmatic, and NF was Choleric. This is because he went strictly by general behaviors, like the examples you gave, of “Melancholic“. I use temperament factors, of expressiveness and responsiveness:

I/E social expressiveness
S+T/F; N+J/P (“directing/informing”) social responsiveness
cooperative/pragmatic: leadership expressiveness
S+J/P; N+T/F leadeership responsiveness

Of course, we can mix these things up any way, and make any king of group from different letter combinations, but I've found that the “parallelisms“ (same four or five temperaments, but on two different levels of interaction) simplifies it according to a common “expressiveness/responsiveness” matrix.

I was looking at the table posted on the SYMLOG site.

Okay, so the temperament dichotomy correlations have a long history, but it's still a hypothesis that hasn't been put to the test. It doesn't matter how many men speculated about such a correlation, nor how many shoulders Keirsey stood on to get there. The point remains that he had not developed a corresponding Four Temperaments test to compliment his MBTI test, and without test data showing the kinds of correlations where ESFJs are Sanguine-Melancholic and ISTPs are Melancholic-Sanguine, it remains a hypothesis.

Ah, Keirsey did associate NF with Choleric and NT with Phlegmatic. My mistake. Still, this does beg the question of how the control temperaments could be rearranged beyond merely swapping NF and NT around, even if it results in rejecting the S/N mix notion as espoused by various ancient philosophers. Obviously, SP fits Sanguine best, but my point still stands that either Choleric or Melancholic could work for NT, since Keirsey intertwined the Choleric desire for power with the Melancholic desire for perfection.

 

[spaceynyc]

I definitely relate to Melancholy the most, the description of it is actually scarily and sadly accurate. A little bit of Phleg as well though.

 

[Eric B]

I was looking at the table posted on the SYMLOG site.

Okay, so the temperament dichotomy correlations have a long history, but it's still a hypothesis that hasn't been put to the test. It doesn't matter how many men speculated about such a correlation, nor how many shoulders Keirsey stood on to get there. The point remains that he had not developed a corresponding Four Temperaments test to compliment his MBTI test, and without test data showing the kinds of correlations where ESFJs are Sanguine-Melancholic and ISTPs are Melancholic-Sanguine, it remains a hypothesis.

Ah, Keirsey did associate NF with Choleric and NT with Phlegmatic. My mistake. Still, this does beg the question of how the control temperaments could be rearranged beyond merely swapping NF and NT around, even if it results in rejecting the S/N mix notion as espoused by various ancient philosophers. Obviously, SP fits Sanguine best, but my point still stands that either Choleric or Melancholic could work for NT, since Keirsey intertwined the Choleric desire for power with the Melancholic desire for perfection.

I was looking at the one right under that. It has a light blue circle in the box. It seems to be another evidence of which type letters represent responsiveness.

So yes, this is just hypothesis.
Keirsey's test really starts with temperament, and the types are seen as “role variants” of them. He afterward divided the types by “informative/directive“, and this ultimately led to the Interaction Styles.

I think the need of perfection is embodied in the “structure focus" held in common by both SJ and NT. Both Melancholy and Choleric are very perfectionistic, which is the low responsiveness (traditionally called “task focus”).

 

[Soul Kitchen]

I was looking at the one right under that. It has a light blue circle in the box. It seems to be anonher evidence of which type letters represent responsiveness.

So yes, this is just hypothesis.
Keirsey's test really starts with temperament, and the types are seen as “role variants” of them. He afterward divided the types by “informative/directive“, and this ultimanely led to the Interaction Styles.

I think the need of perfection is embodied in the “structure focus“ held in common by both SJ and NT. Both Melancholy and Choleric are very perfectionistic, which is the low responsiveness (traditionally called “task focus”).

This is the one you meant. Got it.

 

[Jenmandy]

This is my theory, (btw I grouped it as NT/NF/ST/SF because I dont believe in Keirsey's SJ/SP) 😉

INTJ:Melancholic
INTP:Melancholic/Phlegmatic
ENTJ:Choleric/Melancholic
ENTP:Choleric/Phlegmatic

ISTJ:Melancholic/Choleric
ISTP:Melancholic/Sanguine
ESTJ:Choleric
ESTP:Choleric/Sanguine

INFJhlegmatic/Melancholic
INFPhlegmatic
ENFJ:Sanguine/Melancholic
ENFP:Sanguine/Phlegmatic

ISFJhlegmatic/Choleric
ISFPhlegmatic/Sanguine
ESFJ:Sanguine/Choleric
ESFP:Sanguine

Reply: You missed ambivert and Omniverts.

 

[tanstaafl28]

I prefer this to the older classification system. I find it far to rigid (maybe I just don't like that NTs are often considered choleric I'm just not that mean, cruel, or indifferent, but I can be moody).

I definitely am more sanguine, but I can do the impersonal factual data thing like the choleric. So I'd say I'm enthusiastic about rational things, but I don't forget the human element.

Four Temperament Profiles of the 16 Myers-Briggs Personality Types

The various lenses through which to look at the 16 Myers-Briggs Personality Types help delineate the differences between types. The lense of Temperament explains the 16 types in four groupings.

owlcation.com

 

[Eric B]

Your link is using simply the familiar Keirsey groups, and the "choleric" aspect of ENTP is the NT, and you acknowledged having both Sanguine and Choleric aspects, so it fits. (The ENP is the Sanguine part. This is the "Interaction Style").

Choleric is not simply being "mean, cruel, or indifferent". Those are the negative aspects of the Choleric; especially an unhealthy one. NT being "choleric" means they have a kind of 'assertiveness' (not to be confused with the "Assertive vs Turbulent" theory), which is covered by what Keirsey called "pragmatic" (quick to do "what works" and change things that don't "make sense"), and they are "structure" (task) focused. This is in the area of leadership and action-taking ("conative"), and not surface social behavior (which is what the Interaction styles cover), so the NT's might not look "choleric" on the surface. It's when you're in leadership and responsibilities interactions with them, that you'll experience it more. But again, don't go by "mean and cruel".

 

[Jenmandy]

I believe i am a OSFJ

 

[Eset]

ENTP: Sanguine-Choleric > Choleric-Sanguine > Sanguine-Phlegmatic
INTP: Pure Phlegmatic > Melancholic-Phlegmatic > Pure Melancholic
ESFJ: Sanguine-Phlegmatic > Pure Sanguine > Sanguine-Melancholic
ISFJ: Phlegmatic-Melancholic > Pure Phlegmatic > Melancholic-Phlegmatic
ESTP: Choleric-Sanguine > Sanguine-Choleric > Pure Choleric
ISTP: Phlegmatic-Choleric > Choleric-Phlegmatic > Pure Phlegmatic
ENFJ: Sanguine-Phlegmatic > Sanguine-Melancholic > Pure Sanguine
INFJ: Melancholic-Phlegmatic > Phlegmatic-Melancholic > Pure Melancholic
ENTJ: Pure Choleric > Choleric-Phlegmatic > Choleric-Melancholic
INTJ: Melancholic-Choleric > Choleric-Melancholic > Phlegmatic-Choleric
ESFP: Pure Sanguine > Sanguine-Choleric > Choleric-Sanguine
ISFP: Melancholic-Sanguine > Pure Melancholic > Phlegmatic-Sanguine
ESTJ: Pure Choleric > Choleric-Phlegmatic > Choleric-Melancholic
ISTJ: Melancholic-Choleric > Phlegmatic-Choleric > Pure Melancholic
ENFP: Pure Sanguine > Sanguine-Melancholic > Sanguine-Phlegmatic
INFP: Pure Melancholic > Melancholic-Phlegmatic > Melancholic-Sanguine

 

[NatureChaser]

I'm ISFJ and my temperaments are changing depending on who I am with.

With strangers/acquaintances: Phlegmatic
With family/close friends: Sanguine
At work: Melancholic

The only temperament I don't relate to is Choleric

 

[tanstaafl28]

I might be Sanguine-Phlegmatic. I am only choleric when I'm tired, sick, or in severe pain.

 

[558663]

I'm Melancholic-Choleric, typical for an INTJ I think.

 

[Allostasis]

Choleric mostly. Maybe Choleric-Melancholic

 

[Jenmandy]

NatureChaser, post:
I'm ISFJ and my temperaments are changing depending on who I am with.

With strangers/acquaintances: Phlegmatic
With family/close friends: Sanguine
At work: Melancholic

The only temperament I don't relate to is Choleric

Reply: you sound like a omnivert not and introvert

 

[Jenmandy]

tanstaafl28, post:
I might be Sanguine-Phlegmatic. I am only choleric when I'm tired, sick, or in severe pain.

Reply:You sound like an omnivert personailty