I think that both MBTI and the other two fixes in your tritype are both explaining the same thing, in a lot of cases-- for example, an ENFJ type 4 would be more like to be a tritype 472, while an INFJ type 4 would be more likely to be a tritype 459... But, personally I don't really believe in tritype theory, because I think that the differences between the so-called 472 and 459 could easily be explained by the fact that one of them is an ENFJ and one an INFP.

I brought this up in my thread http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra.../enneagram-personality-theory-forum/571226-tritype-theory-really-necessary.html. Of course not all type 4's are the same, and part of the reason for that is that not all type 4's have the same MBTI, and personally I don't see the use of complicating your enneatype beyond your type, your wing, your instinctual stacking, and the overall generalization that we have all the types within us in some way.

 

complicating

You say it like it's a bad thing .

 

well for me it doesn't complicate but compliments. To me being an INFP 4w5 sx/sp is a lot different than being 478 sx/sp. The 7 and 8 fixes I believe is very insightful for me. I am much different than a core 4w5 INFP. My Ne is pretty high so I think the 7 might be that, I do think I am much more upbeat than the core 4, I think especially because I am an sx first. But there is also the 8 part which explains my assertive and aggressive nature, although of course it doesn't manifest the same way as a 8 first. I also find my archetype to be much telling, it is the messenger and the descriptions tells a lot about me.

I think it is also meaningful because when I am furious and raging, I feel much more in touch with my 8 and when I am taking a logical stance towards a situation my style of the head type 7 is much different than a 5 or a 6. Although I correlate with 5 to a degree as it is my wing.

 

I find that it makes a lot of sense that the MBTI is correlated with the Enneagram type or Tritype. Often when someone identifies their MBTI, it becomes easier predict their enneagram type or eliminate the types which are less likely. Although I doubt the reliability of their methodology, their findings support JavaScript Tool for Exploring Typological Space

 

I agree, I do see a correlation as well and I think one helps with the other in mutual recognition of types. Even this study, correlating enneagrams with brain chemicals in my opinion is very reflective of MBTI https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/the-enneagram-and-brain-chemistry/

However, they do emphasize the role of the second or third fix in tritype being more defining and correlating to MBTI types. I mean at least this was what I was discussing as I have just bumped into their post about it.

 

People tend to look at their behaviour to determine tritype, so I would expect to see statistics showing just that, yeah.

It's really no wonder that so many people take years to get their type right.

 

Oh? And what would you suggest, Mr. High and Mighty?

 

Another issue is regarding using the 'correct' descriptors, which was addressed in the latest Enneagram Summit. People often argue about the right adjectives to describe a type. One of the speakers (Mario Sikora) mentioned that the descriptions should help clarify the types.

This is the problem with language: whenever we put language onto something. If we can come at it from
just slightly different angles, I think it enriches our understanding of it.

It's a huge mistake to say, "No, it's not this word; it's that word." We really need
to say, "Okay, do these words illuminate something for us? If so, then they're
good. Do they muddy things? If so, then they're not good."

 

Tbh their supposed study is so circular it's no wonder that they end up with those things. Lack of proper data validation leads to that. It says more about people's self-perception and how they box themselves than what patterns really exist.

I mean I could take myself as an example of this. I am a core type that's supposedly very extroverted and sensory in most literature but I'm inferior Se and ultra-introverted lol. That's why it's not about behavior but about motivations.

My MBTI and enneagram work together to shape who I am, they interact, rather than having a causal relationship. My 4ness works with my Fi, my 5ness with my NT qualities, 8ness with SF. They fuse together. It's not Fi that makes me 4 nor does 4 make me Fi. I'm 4 AND Fi so they work together to create that part of my personality. I don't understand why people don't understand this. It's really simple as a concept.

Our personality isn't linearly one-dimensional, but there are multitudes of aspects of our personality that exist simultaneously within us.

 

Of course not many studies in this area will account for proper data validation since it is not quantitative and I believe most studies fail to have the credit even at earlier stages as data sampling. However, I think the patterns could be discussed.

Actually, your point highly correlates with their claim, while you are an 8 core, you say you don't show personality traits of an 8 but it is more defined by your motivation, probably from childhood. Your personality traits are more observable through your 2nd and 3rd fixes in your tritype. It does not really correlate 4 with Fi, it does emphasize, on the contrary the 2nd and 3rd fixes are more defining the MBTI type. That is what they claim and your post actually does support their theory. I wouldn't be able to make a generalization as I can't tell through my experience nor my observances of others is enough.

 

I don't know but both my second and third fixes are from the positive triad: 2,7,9 as well as other referencing; so perhaps having 2 or more "positive" and other referencing types in one's triad can account for my being a Fe aux?

 

Influence implies one thing has a position of power over some other and directs the behavior of the other. Put another way, for one thing to influence another means a change in the state of one thing comes before the change of state in the other. One part's the cause, the other the effect.

While I think this is an interesting idea, whether it's the MBTI that influences the tritype or the tritype that influences MBTI can't be answered until we understand how MBTI type and enneagram type/tritype develops in childhood and young adulthood. If their data is reliable, all this could really mean is that there is a proven association between the second and third parts of the tritype and one's MBTI type while there is no (or at least, a weaker) association between core type and MBTI type. That's an interesting finding, but also a rather limited one.

 

I don't think there is a correlation but it's down to cause and effect. I havn't heard anything convincing enough yet tbh to suggest that fixations and cognitive functions meet anywhere in the middle from the same place. But the reason apparantly many INFPs are 4's(that's if they arn't mistyped) are down to the way their actions are responded to which emboldens the blueprint(enneatype) at an impressionable age. If their cognitive processes are validated at a young age, they will be less likely suffer feelings of being misunderstood, if understood by their peers which if you read many childhood stories of the INFP, there are a lot of themes of bullying, the abstract language of this type can cause people to feel isolated. And this makes more sense when you focus on enneatype and childhood and looking at childhood trends in various jungian types. So it doesn't appear implicitely correlated but cause and effect.

 

1) if there is cause and effect, there is a correlation
2) 2 things do not need to "meet in the middle from the same place" to be correlated. they simply need to influence each other in some capacity.
3) most of the INFP 4s you're talking to are indeed probably mistyped :tongue:

 

@Entropic @Zamyatin @mushr00m

Well of course I don't think there will ever be a convincingly quantitative study about this or any patterns really but there is a pattern and not recognizing the pattern is almost nonsensical as buying every study claiming they have data.

I think there is a pattern, I mean I have been reading about narcissistic parents and how their children turn out to be and it sounds awfully like enneagram 4, so it is behavioral it is psychological and then there is MBTI or other systems and you could actually find a lot in common with both a narcissistic parent's child and enneagram 4 and a great majority of INFPs although there is no direct relation. Or when I read about some article that says people that are not anxious have a certain DNA that people that have anxiety don't (very dominant in Fe or enneagram 6) or when I notice how similar a writing on right/left dominant brain sounds to J/P difference. I even read somewhere that around teenage years the parts of the brain goes through a change, feeding the parts used more than the others more and letting the other parts less blood, well I wouldn't bet on it or it is not that I buy the -science- but there is a pattern and it does kind of make sense as well, as I do believe during my teenage years I did go through a major Fi, call it growing up, being disappointed with the world, more experience but I wouldn't oppose to it. I was a very Fi-dom child too but you could easily confuse me with an INTP child, maybe it is the curiosity, maybe life was simpler. But yes I also see how this feeds one another and goes in a circular loop validating each other.

I agree that an earlier understanding could play a great part. I feel like I have wasted my life already to be learning this today. It explains all my struggles and motivations that I can't fix. I don't know if I want to fix it either and I don't believe in telling my motivations to a stranger with a counseling degree and magically having myself fixed. Guess what? It is the same behavior a narcissistic parent's child would say? It felt too close home when I read it. I don't know, I equally take pride in being a 4 but when I see things analytically that explains why it doesn't fit in a real, pragmatic world and how it may come off to others.

edit: so yes the brain going through an alter at 14, I have read another reference today.
There is also this I pointed out earlier on brain chemistry https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/the-enneagram-and-brain-chemistry/
Also, I have been reading articles on childhood psychology and how it plays an effect on introversion, need to be isolated from others, hypersensitivity

just too much telling the same thing over and over, self validating perhaps but not really wise to ignore the pattern due to lack of data that can be validated, it probably will never be

 

@Entropic @Zamyatin @mushr00m

Well of course I don't think there will ever be a convincingly quantitative study about this or any patterns really but there is a pattern and not recognizing the pattern is almost nonsensical as buying every study claiming they have data.

I think there is a pattern, I mean I have been reading about narcissistic parents and how their children turn out to be and it sounds awfully like enneagram 4, so it is behavioral it is psychological and then there is MBTI or other systems and you could actually find a lot in common with both a narcissistic parent's child and enneagram 4

A problem with this is that narcissism isn't a personality disorder that is explicit or unique to any type system; Naranjo for example associates narcissism with type 7 and I can see arguments that fits type 3 as well, or 2, or any other type. The bottom-line is that narcissism isn't a personality disorder well explained by either cognition or the enneagram.

and a great majority of INFPs although there is no direct relation.

I doubt that correlation until I see some actual data on the subject as I see greater variance elsewhere than I do on typology boards.

Or when I read about some article that says people that are not anxious have a certain DNA that people that have anxiety don't (very dominant in Fe or enneagram 6)

Anxiety isn't the same as being a type 6. Anyone can be anxious or develop anxiety.

or when I notice how similar a writing on right/left dominant brain sounds to J/P difference.

The only one who's made that correlation somewhat, is Lenore Thomson, which goes very contrary to Nardi's findings. He for example sees Ni dominance as an explicit right-brain function, with almost no other involvement with the left brain.

I even read somewhere that around teenage years the parts of the brain goes through a change, feeding the parts used more than the others more and letting the other parts less blood, well I wouldn't bet on it or it is not that I buy the -science- but there is a pattern and it does kind of make sense as well, as I do believe during my teenage years I did go through a major Fi,

You already know what I think of your cognitive type.

call it growing up, being disappointed with the world, more experience but I wouldn't oppose to it. I was a very Fi-dom child too but you could easily confuse me with an INTP child, maybe it is the curiosity, maybe life was simpler. But yes I also see how this feeds one another and goes in a circular loop validating each other.

Personally, I really have a hard time being able to confuse you with an INTP lol, and I cannot envision myself to confuse you as an INTP as a child either.

I agree that an earlier understanding could play a great part. I feel like I have wasted my life already to be learning this today. It explains all my struggles and motivations that I can't fix. I don't know if I want to fix it either and I don't believe in telling my motivations to a stranger with a counseling degree and magically having myself fixed. Guess what? It is the same behavior a narcissistic parent's child would say? It felt too close home when I read it. I don't know, I equally take pride in being a 4 but when I see things analytically that explains why it doesn't fit in a real, pragmatic world and how it may come off to others.

In other words - you are simply trying to justify parts about yourself via type even though those parts are not meant to be explained via type.

edit: so yes the brain going through an alter at 14, I have read another reference today.
There is also this I pointed out earlier on brain chemistry https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/the-enneagram-and-brain-chemistry/
Also, I have been reading articles on childhood psychology and how it plays an effect on introversion, need to be isolated from others, hypersensitivity

just too much telling the same thing over and over, self validating perhaps but not really wise to ignore the pattern due to lack of data that can be validated, it probably will never be

People are prone to see patterns even when there are none, because humans are meaning-making creatures and our brains are naturally wired to try to find or see patterns in things e.g. all those pictures that were popular some years in the past with people thinking they've seen Jesus on pizzas, cheeses, whatnot. You should check your own bias first concerning that.

Yeah, of course your MBTI and Enneagram have some kind of correlation. I'm a type 6, probably most common in xSFJs, but I think that my tritype (136) is a lot more common to be ISTJ.

Based on the data I've gathered, I've honesty not encountered such a thing at all. 6 seems to be one of the few types with no seemingly inherent bias whatsoever, regarding cognitive preferences. I also think that this is partially related to the fact that people are typing themselves more honestly as 6s though.

 

@nichya
regardless of order, I tend to (very generally) associate tritypes with the following types
125: INFJ, INTP
126: ESFJ
127: ENFP, E_FJ
135: __TJ
136: _S_J
137: E__J
145: INF_, INTP
146: _NF_
147: _NFP, ISFP
825: ENTJ
826: EN_J, ESTJ
827: ES_P
835: _NTJ
836: _STP
837: ES_P
845: witches, demons and Nietzsche
846: ESFP
847: E_FP
925: INFJ
926: I_FJ
927: E_F_
935: IS_J, I_TP
936: any
937: ENTP
945: IN__, ISFP
946: I_F_
947: ENFP, ISFP

 

@Swordsman of Mana

845: witches, demons and Nietzsche

only one fix away ! :tongue:

 

@Swordsman of Mana
845: witches, demons and Nietzsche
only one fix away ! :tongue:

847 is more "evil queen", "villainous diva", "exotic cult leader" (think Malefecent, Cruella de Vil)

also, 147 and 127 are the heroic, operatic soprano leads while 847 and 845 are the sinister bass/alto villains

 

Yeah, of course your MBTI and Enneagram have some kind of correlation. I'm a type 6, probably most common in xSFJs, but I think that my tritype (136) is a lot more common to be ISTJ.

 

My 2nd and 3rd types are 8w7 and 5w4. Wouldn't that make me an ENTJ or something like that?

 

For the archetypes isn't the order 457? Following your core then in a clock wise whatever department follows next such as 4-heart, 5-mind and 8-gut?

Well I don't buy the study anyway, just wanted to discuss. Loosely and statistically, 7 is more of signature fix of ENFPs, I know I am an introvert in the Jungian sense even though my Ne comes up pretty high and I get ENFP at times, also my Te inferior is too obvious.

I am thinking though there must be a precondition to their claim at least but they didn't include it in their short post about it.

 

Sounds like a rubbish study.

 

I love 8s <3

 

Where's the god damn fucking link so we could read for ourselves?

 

lol, It is just a facebook post, they might have more information now on their website although I can't see at a glance, I think it was live from the summit.

"Greatly enjoyed presenting with Katherine at the online Enneagram Global Summit this afternoon. We revealed the first results from a survey correlating Enneagram Type, Tritype, Instinct and MBTI. The early statistical analysis suggests strongly that MBTI is influenced by the 2nd and 3rd types in your Tritype. For example although most 4s are INFPs, a 415 is likely to be an INFJ. So Tritype may explain why people of the same dominant Enneagram Type sometimes have different MBTI types. Thank you to Jessica as our wonderful host! https://shiftnetwork.isrefer.com/go/egs15KF/DFauvre/ "