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6K views 18 replies 19 participants last post by  PlasticRenaissance  
#1 ·
Anyone plagued with an incessant anxiety/shame that they are a bad person?

Some days the feeling starts and try as I might to distract myself it just hangs on and runs me into the ground.

*shrugs*
 
#2 ·
I do. What has helped me is to not bite the hook (snowballing a storyline to the trigger) when it comes up ...BUT (this is the key) not to deny the feeling. I found inner child work was beneficial to get over the first hurtle. If you were to see your friend, child, or even better yourself as a child having this problem. They are Struggling what would you say to them? what do they need? then give it to them. For me it was validating my feelings and giving myself some space to let the feeling go by.
 
#3 ·
I also struggle with this; you are not alone.

I had a recent conversation with one of my professors, though, and she asked me directly how I was coping. It occurred to me that I had never consciously considered how I was dealing with feelings of anxiety/guilt/shame. Most of the time I run away from it by pouring myself into other people, but in the end, it all comes out in the wash.

I hope you find what works for you and if you need someone to vent to, then we are here to listen :happy:
 
#6 ·
*hugs*

I can relate. And it plays over and over in your mind to the point you wanna disappear.

What I do is either go online and look for a solution and make a promise to myself to improve on these points or if its about an embarrassing scenario that I really can't change anymore, I distract myself by mentally shouting the first few things I see around me until I calm down.

Well... that's how I do it. I hope this helps you somehow.
 
#7 ·
omg yes when I was younger. I was so paranoid and had so much anxiety. I didn't believe in myself or even like myself. I don't know why I felt that way! Maybe part of it was having parents who didn't enjoy me ... they just wanted me out of the way mostly. And then in school I got teased relentlessly for being awkward and different. I never could fit in.

The older I get the more it doesn't matter to me what other people think. Everything I have been through, the heart breaks and rejections and back stabbing ... it's made me stronger and more free. Every time I overcome, it's another step in the direction of liking myself and knowing that I can trust myself and trust God to make it through this life. I just got fired, 2 weeks later I had an even better job making more money. Now, if only that would happen in my love life. :D
 
#11 · (Edited)
Yes, I have really terrible issues with anxiety that are directly related to shame; I often get these moments where I feel this sense of almost surrealistic dread and it's like "omg, omg, omg, there must be something wrong with me" and I just feel like my whole sense of perception and sense of reality is off in some drastic way, and I am insane or something.

I have always been really different and taught to be immense shame and guilt for those difference (hence; why I am a 4)

My eccentricities, manners, and just overall perspective is different from the norm, as well as not fitting into things like fitting gender stereotypes. Unfortunately, I grew up in a really conservative area, so I blame it heavily on that.

Now I sort of dislike tradition and people who are too 'conservative' ~which is to say that I do not like conserving the past, but those who are too rigid and stuck there.
 
#12 ·
Type 4 is an Enneatype whose main emotion is shame. I believe 9 is another shame type.

Quoted from Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions

Type 4(Image Triad)

Fours are image types who primarily identify with their feelings. They are moody and self-absorbed as well as very sensitive. They are disdainful, hostile even, towards being "normal" or "common". On the deepest of levels they are "different from others" and "true to themselves" and therefore significant, special, and unique. They are honest with themselves about how feelings are central to their lives and unlike twos and threes appear to wear their shame and vulnerability on their sleeve. Whether warranted or not fours attach subjective significance to their feelings from which they strive to create an identity embedded with their own stylistic signature that is their "personal statement" of who they are.

Their stylistic "personal statement" of who they truly are is the image that fours create and project to others. It can be dramatically expressive, finely parisian, absurdly original, profoundly eclectic, or something else that reflects the four's aesthetic sense of how to fully express themselves and their opposition to normalcy. This eccentric, dramatic, or "weird" persona fours may take on can be a method of countershame which serves to cover up the deep sense of shame fours hold for themselves and transform it into an attack on the external world. To compensate for their shame and feelings of defectiveness fours exhibit a subtle snobbery and elitism and see others as ordinary and trite. They feel their outsider status, sophistication, aesthetic sensitivity, creativity, and personal insight place them above the "commoners". This is how fours feel authentic.

Holding fast to living out their stylistic "personal statement" ideal to stay "true to themselves" despite seeming strange to others is how fours maintain being authentic. Their sense of being flawed, misunderstood, and of not being seen for "who they really are" only reaffirms to them that they are too different to live according to the terms and standards of normalcy as dictated by society. They were born to be outsiders and in order to be true to themselves they must live out their outsider destiny. This the very crux of the four's sense of identity and there is no type whose identity is as real to them as the four.

Fours are especially aware of their identity as a creative construct based on what resonates emotionally with them. While they strive to be as true to themselves as possible they resonate most with an ideal image that has unattainable depth and complexity. They perpetually fall short of their own personal ideal which causes shame and increased self-consciousness over the rootlessness of lacking a stable identity. This makes them constantly feel inadequate, defective, flawed, fustrated, melancholic, and envious of others who are better off. To make up for the perennial sense of something essential missing inside themselves they indulge in amplifying their emotions in each situation in the name of authenticity and searching for meaning. They internalize and personalize their experiences to squeeze the emotional juices out of each situation. They probe the darker sides of life and deepest depths of their psyche where most people don't dare tread. They introspect and observe themselves far beyond the average person. They feel they have a cretain richness in their lives that other lack, for others haven't seen what they've seen, known what they've known, and felt what they've felt.

The four's picturesque inner landscape is equally rich if not richer, a vast and endlessly deep treasure trove of murky nooks and crannies of emotional states to inhabit and indulge themselves in. They have a wistful side and dwell on the bittersweet nostalgia of past memories. They also create their own "personal story" filled with myth and metaphor and live it out as though it were as real as reality itself. Indulging their imagination to live out their emotional states and allow themselves to feel intensely is necessary to feel true to themselves. Part of their disdain for the ordinary has to do with feeling a need to amplify and intensify their feelings as ordinary experiences rarely satisfy them. Hence fours often find practical matters difficult.

Such closeness with one's emotional states brings an aesthetic sensitivity most fours have in common. Fours have a natural creative process that is necessitated by using their feelings to create an identity. They are often associated with being artists in some sense even if they aren't in the literal meaning of the word. They seek out the beauty in every experience. As fours are especially attuned to what gives light to meaning they breathe new life into their experiences and transform them.

This need to live out and even amplify their emotional states makes for anything but a trite existence. Fours can be paralyzed with self-hatred, and consumed with envy and even paralyzed with hatred for others. While fours are self-loathing they want to be heard out and understood more than offered a "patronizing" practical solution to their pain. They'd rather wallow in their suffering than have the depth of their turmoil trivialized and thus their feelings marginalized and invalidated. The combination of belonging to the reactive triad and being a feeling type means despite the four's fragility they can get hostile towards the person who clearly doesn't understand them. One should beware as there is no type that can hone in on another's emotional vulnerabilities and pierce others with their words like a venemous four. On the flip side fours can be very devoted and supportive. They can be deeply empathetic and very in tune with their partner's emotional states.

Thus fours tend to be high maintainence. They envy happy people and dream of finding that special someone who can rescue them from their melancholy. This shows up especially in relationships as fours hold their partners to high expectations. While fours are very accepting of a partner's quirks one should expect to be tested constantly by their drama which is really a fear of abandonment due to shame over their defectiveness. They are known for their "push-pull" behaviour where they share their deepest darkest secrets with their partner and then recoil in shame at what they revealed. They preemptively withdraw fearing their partner will seem them as irredeemably flawed and will leave them. If their partner sticks with them the process repeats as long as the four fears abandonment.

In enneagram theory fours are feeling-thinking-instinctive in that order. They indulge in amplifying their feelings at the expense of having a handle on the mundane aspects of real life. Their "difference from others" and self-absorbedness pushes them away from others enough to cultivate difference-based ideal self-images they can't achieve. This can set in motion a self-destructive cycle whereby they cling to their arrogance that the masses lack the nuance to understand them. Being instinctive-last they are more ungrounded than others and have a greater chance of sinking into despair and falling deep enough into an abyss they can't recover from. They sincerely want to get healthy but don't want to give up their overidentification with defectiveness and with it being an outsider, the source of their identity and fuel for their fixation. They can get healthier by realizing that others suffer just as they do and that their personal experiences aren't as different from others' as they make them out to be. They can start to accept and embrace what they have in common with others and experience success relating to them. This will allow them to understand that meaning and significance can be found outside uniqueness and with that greater flexibility to create a more realistic identity they won't keep falling short of actualizing. Once they accept the entirety of who they are they won't have to depend on amplifying their emotional states to live out an idealized persona they can never be. With a more authentic self-perception comes increased self-love without losing their insight and creativity and what makes them "them". They will be able to experience the joy of living in the present without being chained to the past.


4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".


4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.


4 vs 1: Fours are indulgent whereas ones see that as a lack of self-control.
4 vs 2: Twos are other-directed while fours are more attuned to their own needs and self before others as the self is their primary focus
4 vs 3: Fours sink or swim wherever their emotions take them while threes don't like to give free reign to the expression of their emotions.
4 vs 5: Fours are in the feeling triad so feelings are their home base unlike fives who have to periodically detach from them to prevent from feeling overwhelmed.
4 vs 6: Fours are comfortable with their elitism as they just know they have insight and creativity others lack. Sixes don't like it when people place themselves above others due to it being unfair.
4 vs 7: Sevens have a blind faith in the future working out for them unlike fours. Sevens are more future-oriented and fours are past-oriented.
4 vs 8: Eights are the tough exterior with the marshmallow core underneath while fours are the opposite. Eights avoid displays of emotional vulnerability while fours see the ability to live out their emotions as desireable.
4 vs 9: Fours use separation to proudly affirm how different they are while nines fear being separated from others.
 
#13 ·
Not so much that I'm a bad person. Just an unachiever, that I never will get the things most people seem to have and take for granted, have no future, am wasting my youth, will have missed my chance, and that I will end up as a sad lonely old man who missed out on life. If I could see the future and knew that was in store for me I'd rather take my own life before I get there.
 
#14 ·
Not so much that I'm a bad person. Just an unachiever, that I never will get the things most people seem to have and take for granted, have no future, am wasting my youth, will have missed my chance
Oh man I know that feeling. I have been really working on this because it keeps popping into my head. I am always comparing myself to my peers in their 30s unfavourably, how they have 'real' careers and planned ahead, they didn't waste their time in their 20s as I feel I did... etc. etc.
I went to University about a decade after most do. This rubbed in that I was surrounded by younger people who were ahead of me. But I tried to find a better perspective and see all the ways my background and such lead to me having a different mindset from 'the norm'. That I was doing the best I could with the resources available to me at the time, and I got to experience things that those people didn't. And I try to focus on the fact that I am aware of how this thinking is counterproductive and not any sort of 'fact'.
There are plenty of examples of people who became successful late in life after tinkering with lots of dead ends. And also, why do I care about success by the standards of others? Some people are content with a simple life. One of the biggest lessons I am learning from our 4w5 type is to learn gratitude. To focus on all the things we can take for granted that somebody else somewhere wishes they could have, instead of focusing on things we think we should have.
I was recently talking to an artist aquaintance in her 70s, and hearing her lecturing me on how young I am and how much time i have ahead of me really made me pause. Here I was thinking my time is running out, yet imagine if I live to be her age, I've got my whole life all over again to do all the things I want to do. It's difficult to shift perspective, but I'm trying to do it.
 
#15 ·
It fluctuates. Some days I'm certain I'm a bad person, and other days I'm still certain, but the difference is not feeling bad about it. I don't know. Guilty that I don't feel guilt, shameful for being shameless. It's complicated. Part of me thinks that if someone never thinks they are bad, they can never think they are good, either.
 
#16 ·
I have this most of the time, but when my mood is up, my anxiety down, and I feel like I am busy in worthwhile pursuits, or even just my favorite interests, it tends to be less of a problem. If I make a mistake , feel unaccomplished, or just get that reminder in the back of my head I could be a more helpful or all around more worthwhile person, the feeling rushes back. I try to really over compensate, sometimes just a little, but quite a lot when plagued by insecurity and wanting my life to feel more meaningful. It really ponds on my life circumstances and health level.
 
#19 ·
I have a question;

Is shame SO's first drive?

I mean I am SX/SO I feel shame from time to time
,however, if I compare it to my competitive nature
__shame is not the first drive that keep me breathing.