[OldManRivers]

Perhaps this could be a factor:
:laughing:

 

[Sedem]

@fia

You've identified a lot of what terrifies me about marriage. I see so many potentials for either failure or becoming trapped that the possibility for a successful, healthy marriage just seems so incredibly low. I want it, but I find it hard to see myself taking the risk necessary to obtain that prize.

 

[FallingSlowly]

Used to care, don't care anymore because it didn't prevent the relationship to my ex from failing. Humans fail, with or without marriage. I am somewhat adverse to churches, or other people for that matter, judging couples for splitting up when they know feck all about the people and problems involved.

The institution and a piece of paper mean relatively little (apart from legal rights and religious sacraments, and I don't particularly care about either of those).
Two people sharing something deep and meaningful means everything.
One is not the prerequisite for the other.

Btw, I know unmarried couples with children who have been happily together for ages, and it works just fine. I also know married couples with kids who live an absolute farce (and the kids don't strike me as particularly balanced because of that). It really doesn't mean a thing in that respect, and to believe so would be rather naive. My parents were married, their relationship was total shit, and I suffered greatly as a child because of that.

So in short: I couldn't care less these days.

 

[OldManRivers]

Btw, I know unmarried couples with children who have been happily together for ages, and it works just fine. I also know married couples with kids who live an absolute farce (and the kids don't strike me as particularly balanced because of that). It really doesn't mean a thing in that respect, and to believe so would be rather naive. My parents were married, their relationship was total shit, and I suffered greatly as a child because of that.

Hmmm. That was my family life.

But I thought, I can make it better - avoid these problems. . . Nope. Not for lack of trying.

The best prescription to a healthy marriage that I can think of is that two people love each other so much that all the crap that comes with marriage can be endured, then diligently work to avoid the crap. A start is a small civil ceremony, sedate business dress and no corsage, no emblems of romantic entanglement, no damn coronation, with properly constructed prenups, not to protect one, but to protect both, not punitive but affirmative.

"The family that prays together. . . just finds new grounds for hostility." Spiritual beliefs are intensly private. Know and tolerate the other's, and if there is mutual agreement, embrace it. But don't force it.

And if there are children, for the love of God, don't use them. Love them. Nurture them. Then let them go.

I would give it a 50/50 chance with all this. . .

 

[AriesLilith]

I agree with you about valuing the ideal of two people loving each other for a lifetime, sharing memories, developing a level of trust and love over decades.

I realize I have some cynicism, but I know that marriages can last for reasons other than love. A big reason marriages lasted a lifetime before women had equality is because it was nearly impossible for a woman to survive outside marriage. A person will tolerate a lot when it is their primary option. It made even bad marriages a better option than being alone and struggling to make money in a world that didn't hire women, especially professionally. Also, when the dynamic is unequal then conflicts are resolved more readily because there isn't full discussion or two viewpoints, so no conflict. I also know marriage where the woman is in control and the man so beat down that he doesn't have the confidence to leave. Imbalance of power dynamics creates lasting, but destructive dynamics because the dominant one has everything just as they desire it, and the submissive one is too sick, tired, and beat down to go through the difficult process of leaving.

Marriages can also last out of force of habit. When lifestyle habits are established over years, it is incredibly difficult to break these. When people never consider making a change because routines are set, then they don't even when the current habits are not in the best interest of either party. One example that comes to mind involves sexuality. I recently read that 20% of marriages are considered sexless (meaning sex 10 or less times a year). If that is the choice of both partners, then great, but when it is not, then that is a horrible oppression for the partner who needs sexual expression and is committed to a monogamous marriage. I have seen that dynamic a few times over the years and for the partner left longing, it can dismantle them psychologically and even cause physical ailments to be exacerbated. I've had friends develop more severe chronic fatigue and pain when left without physical, sexual expression. Sexuality runs to the core of our psyche (which society never talks about), and so when people are incompatible sexually for any reason including libido, it can destroy one or both partners. If one partner has low libido and the other successfully pressures them with psychological coercion, then that also has destructive results. Sexual monogamy can involve amazing deep trust and connection, but it is amazing how much damage it can cause people. Yet many live a lifetime in a dynamic that destroys them to their core, even when everything else in the relationship is a peaceful friendship. I never had any comprehension about the complexity and importance of sexuality in what I was taught when young. I was always taught it just fell into place if you were kind, unselfish and available as a true friend. That is an absolute lie. Sexuality has a life of its own, and even though it can represent relationship dynamics, it can also represent physiology and previous life experience of both partners.

Sex is often underrated and not well understood, even thought it is also a very important part of a relationship. People often perceive it as physical release, giving more importance to emotional component of the relationship, but there's a lot more depth to physical intimacy so that sex is not just a release. I don't know how to explain this by words, but I'm glad you posted this.

When I see two elderly people still together as a couple, my reaction is complex. On the one hand it is an expression of what I long for my life to entail. In another way I wonder how much pain they went through and if one or both partners were damaged in the process. I wonder if it endured out of love or control, or most likely - both.

I guess that the more we connect with someone on a deeper level, the more we might clash with each other. It's just inevitable, unless we avoid deeper connections altogether, or are extremely lucky enough to find someone that is near 100% compatible with us.

But people are complex, and they are flawed. So that the deeper we connect, the more we might end up hurting each other.

Yet maybe I have this rather idealistic way of seeing it, but I feel that it might actually not be that bad. It hurts a lot, it hurts deeply, and it can leave scars. But then what about the good things that we experienced? The warmth, the affection, the love... We might get hurt, but then we might also heal. And yet there are just things that are worth the risk.

Since we are not perfect and have our own flaws and issues, we will always hurt each other. Yet there are also things that we can only experience when we can reach a deeper connection.

Pain and happiness are both present in our lives, thought there's just this beautiful thing that in the end makes it worth it.

Me and my husband had hurt each other at times deeply, and probably might hurt each other in the future. Yet together we also healed of this hurt, as well as of the wounds and scars we have gotten from life. And then there's this warmth, this thing that I cannot explain yet it's such a deep fundamental warmth that makes it worth it. No, saying "makes it worth it" is probably a wrong expression for this - it's more like fundamental happiness and belonging/familiarity, that I can feel from the core.

 

[Cherish_Me1989]

I also agree that I like the concept of marriage and the commitment it gives a well established relationship. The traditional side of me yearns for this because my morals finds this a just arrangement and I actually would like to be married one day. My fear is being in a dead end union that I can't get out of being sucked dry of who I truly am because I have deprived myself while giving someone else all that they ask of me. I dunno i guess its a back and forth issue for me. I assume if I found what is perfect for me then this marriage may not be a second guess, but as long as I'm getting men with less than good ulterior motives you can more than likely count me out of this union.

Sent from my LG-LS970 using Tapatalk

 

[lifefullofwords]

Do you idealize marriage or reject it as an social institution?

Marriage may not be right for everyone but it's definitely right for me. I've dreamed of being married (not the wedding, the actual married part) since I was a little girl. I'm all but positive I will marry someday. My parents have a very happy marriage so that's what I had modeled for me but I think I would have felt the same way under different circumstances.

I think divorce should be legal but I'd do everything in my power to avoid getting one. In my opinion it is very, very wrong to break a vow. I see divorce as a social evil that should be avoided at all costs. I'm not going to tell people how to live their lives but the world would be a much better place if people took marriage seriously. A lot of people/couples aren't suited for lifetime commitment and that's fine - but they shouldn't get married. Marriage is always challenging but it's only a Sisyphean task when you're not suited for the institution or the couple is a bad match.

What do you think about marriage as a unit for creating a stable family environment for children through age 18/adulthood?

I think it's ideal as long as the parents are in a solid relationship. But if they're miserable and the marriage can't be salvaged then they should get divorced ASAP, for the sake of their children. All kids learn from unhappily married parents is how to be married unhappily. You are not doing your kid the favor you think you are by staying together.

It's also more than possible for divorced or single parents to raise awesome kids. So while it may be ideal it's certainly not necessary.

What do you think about the marriage of two adults without children?

That they're married but have no children? I don't know how to answer that question. I know couples like this and they seem just as likely to be content as couples with kids. If people don't want kids then they definitely shouldn't have them.

What do you think of the "until death do us part" aspect of marriage in terms of religious requirement to never divorce?

I suppose some religious people may take vows they make before god more seriously. Personally, I don't need a deity to be present in order to keep a vow.

What are your views on equality in marriage and how that is accomplished?

I think that people should be in whatever kind of relationship they want. However, I don't think people should take on a role because society tells them that's what they're supposed to do. I think people should enter any type of relationship from an open-minded place of self-knowledge, otherwise they may end up with a relationship dynamic that doesn't suit them.

I would like to add that I think there are definitely good reasons to get divorced. The number one way to avoid having to deal with them is to marry someone with whom you are compatible - otherwise the relationship is doomed to failure from the start. Sometimes people let marital problems fester for too long and by the time they try to address them it's too late. Basically, a relationship can die the same way a person can and when it's gone, it's gone. Still, divorce should be avoided at all costs, unless there's abuse involved - in which case, the relationship should be ended ASAP.

A final thought... beyond social benefits, marriage offers all kinds of legal benefits that committed life partners should consider availing themselves of even if they don't find marriage to be meaningful in and of itself.

 

[YourVeryFlesh]

Do you idealize marriage or reject it as a social institution?
I'm going to go with a healthy medium of the two. Marriage for me is less of a societal or religious thing and more so I know my partner 100% committed to me and ready to spend the rest of their life with me. The whole thing really comes down to the idea of actions speaking louder than words.

What do you think about marriage as a unit for creating a stable family environment for children through age 18/adulthood?
Marriage itself isn't the important part - it's for the children learning social norms and how adults interact with one another, which is done through a couple being together. As long as the relationship is healthy, that's all that matters.

What do you think about the marriage of two adults without children?
Again, fine. Marriage does in no way mean that children will follow, despite a large portion of society thinking that way.

What do you think of the "until death do us part" aspect of marriage in terms of religious requirement to never divorce?
Divorce is necessary, I think. Better two people are happier separate than have one unstable relationship (which could cause damage to any children who witness it). Personally, I would do anything in my power to avoid divorce, because when I say "I do", I will certainly mean "til death do us part." But as I said, my saying that wouldn't be for a religious reason - it would be a promise to my partner.

What are your views on equality in marriage and how that is accomplished?
People can define their relationship however they please. If that means they'd like to marry, gender and orientation should not factor into that in the slightest.

 

[Ravenetta]

@fia

You've identified a lot of what terrifies me about marriage. I see so many potentials for either failure or becoming trapped that the possibility for a successful, healthy marriage just seems so incredibly low. I want it, but I find it hard to see myself taking the risk necessary to obtain that prize.

It is terrifying, understandably, but there is divorce, and I think that divorce should be respected and not seen as failure because sometimes it is success. My view is that a divorce rate of 50% is not something to see as a bad thing, but as completely healthy. It makes sense to me that every intended pairing is fundamentally not going to work. This shouldn't be shamed or imply that the people didn't try hard enough. It might mean that they had the good sense to stop fighting a useless battle and get on with their lives. We have 7 billion people on the planet who are all trying to live useful, happy, contributing lives. Why should the pairing of two specific individuals be a rigid and absolute endeavor. It is wonderful to be committed and loyal, and I completely value that, but sometimes people can be happier and contribute more good in the world if they admit a marriage mistake and find someone more compatible. This can be done in good sense and love. Marriage can certainly be seen as sacred, but hopefully not oppressively so.

Sex is often underrated and not well understood, even thought it is also a very important part of a relationship. People often perceive it as physical release, giving more importance to emotional component of the relationship, but there's a lot more depth to physical intimacy so that sex is not just a release. I don't know how to explain this by words, but I'm glad you posted this.



I guess that the more we connect with someone on a deeper level, the more we might clash with each other. It's just inevitable, unless we avoid deeper connections altogether, or are extremely lucky enough to find someone that is near 100% compatible with us.

But people are complex, and they are flawed. So that the deeper we connect, the more we might end up hurting each other.

Yet maybe I have this rather idealistic way of seeing it, but I feel that it might actually not be that bad. It hurts a lot, it hurts deeply, and it can leave scars. But then what about the good things that we experienced? The warmth, the affection, the love... We might get hurt, but then we might also heal. And yet there are just things that are worth the risk.

Since we are not perfect and have our own flaws and issues, we will always hurt each other. Yet there are also things that we can only experience when we can reach a deeper connection.

Pain and happiness are both present in our lives, thought there's just this beautiful thing that in the end makes it worth it.

Me and my husband had hurt each other at times deeply, and probably might hurt each other in the future. Yet together we also healed of this hurt, as well as of the wounds and scars we have gotten from life. And then there's this warmth, this thing that I cannot explain yet it's such a deep fundamental warmth that makes it worth it. No, saying "makes it worth it" is probably a wrong expression for this - it's more like fundamental happiness and belonging/familiarity, that I can feel from the core.

Your entire post is so beautiful and strikes me to the core because I am dealing with these exact issues. I am in my second marriage which went through a very dark period where we had parallel emotional triggers and the fights were the most painful situations I have ever experienced. My husband and I have both been violated in the past. I was abused by my father and grew up in a transient and food insecure environment, and my husband was a street kid for a while and physically attacked by a group of skinheads. We are both a little neuro-atypical as well with certain hypersensitivities, so this pairing is not easy and yet holds the possibility for deep understanding and intimacy.

I was getting so hurt I decided to temporarily leave, and he has responded by working 100% of himself to try to fix things, so I am as well. This is requiring a lot of forgiving, understanding, and effort. I feel hopeful now, and I love deeply, so the prospect of leaving is emotionally traumatic for me. I do have hope, at least knowing that our efforts to love, understand, and show kindness to one another is helping us both grow. This will strengthen us regardless of what life brings in the future.

 

[Sedem]

It is terrifying, understandably, but there is divorce, and I think that divorce should be respected and not seen as failure because sometimes it is success. My view is that a divorce rate of 50% is not something to see as a bad thing, but as completely healthy. It makes sense to me that every intended pairing is fundamentally not going to work. This shouldn't be shamed or imply that the people didn't try hard enough. It might mean that they had the good sense to stop fighting a useless battle and get on with their lives. We have 7 billion people on the planet who are all trying to live useful, happy, contributing lives. Why should the pairing of two specific individuals be a rigid and absolute endeavor. It is wonderful to be committed and loyal, and I completely value that, but sometimes people can be happier and contribute more good in the world if they admit a marriage mistake and find someone more compatible. This can be done in good sense and love. Marriage can certainly be seen as sacred, but hopefully not oppressively so.

I have yet to see a divorce which happened in a healthy way. Yes, it was always more healthy than staying in a bad situation, but the effects of divorce that I have seen play out in the family that I grew up in... It's just not something I want. I'd rather live unmarried to the end of my days, possibly without children, than have that infect my family. Perhaps I am letting me fear get the better of me, as I am not my parents and can make my own path.

And perhaps it is unrealistic of me to want what I want, but If I can't have a healthy, happy marriage for life...I'd rather not marry at all. I'll have relationships. I certainly won't keep myself from love, and I can also respect people who view divorce as an option for themselves because I don't see anything inherently "wrong" with it. It's just too painful a concept for me, i think.

 

[Curiously]

Do you idealize marriage or reject it as an social institution?

Both. Let me explain. I idealize it so much so that I have doubts that I, and my would-be partner, would be able to honor and uphold the sanctity of the union. There are too many realistic and possible variables for any kind of love to deteriorate or change for the worse that I wouldn't want to gamble on marriage. I mildly reject marriage in practical/realistic terms because I see way too many marry for half-baked/unfounded/not fully considered/immature/etc reasons. Commitment of any kind is a serious business - I dare say it's a very, very grave matter - and I refuse to enter into any type of serious relationship lightly.

What do you think about marriage as a unit for creating a stable family environment for children through age 18/adulthood?

It depends. I think I've been the recipient of having a relatively stable family environment as a growing child because my parents chose to stick through their marital problems, and they happen to still be married for 32+ years despite some of their differences. In this case, I am thankful my parents stayed together during my formative years, though I am certain things wouldn't have turned out all that shaky had they decided to part ways during that period, actually, but this is attributed to my parents being responsible individuals in their own right. With all this said, I don't think marriage exclusively equates to creating a stable environment for children. Have you seen how many kids turn out fucked up BECAUSE their parents stayed together?

What do you think about the marriage of two adults without children?

As long as the two individuals involved are both happy without children, then who cares? Marriage isn't just about procreation.

What do you think of the "until death do us part" aspect of marriage in terms of religious requirement to never divorce?

Each person's happiness is paramount in any relationship. If one or both parties involved aren't happy in the marriage, I don't see the point in staying in the marriage because of that misguided notion of "until death do us part." Life is short to remain in misery, but then again, some people just love being in such a state. (time for eye roll)

How about the aspect of two people growing old together?

You can grow old with someone without being married, let's get this straight. Chances are, this'll be me - that is, if/when I find a partner who meets me more than half-way just as I would meet him/her/it more than half-way, and we both choose to grow old together, happily and without infringing upon the other's sense of freedom and values/goals/beliefs/etc.

What are your views on equality in marriage and how that is accomplished?

If it isn't equal, then what's the point? Fairness and balance in any kind of lasting, loving, and committed relationship matter. It's accomplished by very honest and clear communication and reverence for each other's boundaries and bottom lines.

 

[leoni]

I think marriage can be a beautiful thing. My parents were divorced. I don't ever want to get a divorce. To give yourself to someone wholeheartedly is beautiful in my opinion... a lifelong partner. That's what I want. Not that you have to be married to have this at all, but I would like to be married.

However, it's scary because marriage is also very fragile. I've been quietly observant of many married couples. You can always sort of tell when a married couple seems bored or unhappy in their relationship. The kind of life where the couple lives in the suburb, goes to their 8-5 jobs and takes the kids to school every day is not for me. I think there is something that seems so miserable about that... sometimes it just seems so cookie-cutter. I don't ever want to fall into mundane routines and many of the married couples I have seen do that... then they start to seem very unhappy, but they're doing what society tells them they're "supposed" be doing.

 

[MewMeu]

I would like to preface my perspective with that I'm not an atheist or non-religious. Rather, that it is irrelevant whether or not god exists. To me, to be religious means that you think your beliefs are more right than someone else's, or in other words, that someone else is wrong. I find the point of life is simply to live happily, and not at the expense of others. If it was important for us to know if god existed, we would know. Instead were left to our own devices where people assume that there beliefs are better than the others.

I feel like the concept of religion and, in turn, marriage are important constructs of society that frame more moral behavior. Whereas the constructs and ideologies of marriage simply come down to one person's preference or the other. To feel that your opinion should be the way followed over others is rather arrogant, given that were all only human.

At the end of the day all that matters is that you treat other people respectfully and only aim to encourage their happiness. To make someone upset is to take away their happiness, of which a person's happiness is their core/sole motivation for wanting to live.

 

[Cthulhu And Coffee]

Um..I don't know how related this automatically is to the topic. But as of right now, I have a big problem with promising myself to someone "til death do us part." And maybe it's because I haven't ever actually been in love but I just don't see how I could be sure that I wanted to do that. Even if I made the decision to settle for someone, I might STILL refuse to turn away someone better who came along down the line. It's just, if you're someone who feels the future is unpredictable, how could you possibly predetermine it?

With that said, I especially don't understand marriages between two people who feel like they can do better. : / And seeing as a lot of people don't believe in a soul mate, I wonder how many of those people could believe in being with ONE person for the rest of their lives.

I'm not sure I'll ever get married for this reason. Theoretically, unless I do believe I've found the ONLY person for me (because if there's more than one and I choose to marry, why am I not just a polygamist?) and can be conscious of the fact that I have, I think I would only choose to take it one day at a time.

 

[KRae]

I'm 17, so I don't have a lot of authority on the subject. I do, however, know a good amount of successfully and happily married couples very well. Having seen these couples, I believe very strongly in the benefits and importance of marriage. I think that marriage should be well thought-out and weighed by both individuals so as to avoid any troubles later, but I believe that two when two people marry, they are to work through everything together with enduring patience. I love the idea of growing old with the person you love, though I think it's better to be married to someone who's your best friend than someone who you're insanely attracted to. It has to be a steady relationship built on good things, y'know? I don't know, I'm no expert!

 

[Ravenetta]

I respect a wide variety of views on the topic because it is as complex and diverse in meaning and experience as humanity. There isn't a way to accurately express what I think/feel about marriage because I just can't find the words. There is a level of love, admiration, and concern that goes beyond words and a level of pain that goes beyond words. I honestly don't know what to do with that.

 

[Ravenetta]

I just made this post in another thread, but it got me thinking about this one:
Power imbalances also upset me. I've been feeling a bit melancholy thinking about how many human relationships end up exploiting this. Even really awesome people I know end up in these dynamics because many people have greater internal needs than one person can fill, and many people also have needs to do anything for approval and acceptance. Put those together and someone exploits someone. It makes me incredibly sad, but there isn't anything that can be done because it seems like it is just the nature of human intimacy.

I'm in this mixed up aspect of relationships as well. I really wish people could spend more time as individuals to re-balance and get a clear perspective on their own needs. There is a way people can muddle up together into unhealthy dynamics that cannot be comprehended easily. I notice this even with the nicest, happiest people when you look deeper at their dynamics there are always problems. I wish there were other ways of approaching relationships besides "the two will become one flesh" types of assumptions.

 

[59465]

As a person, im pretty much loyal to the core.
That means for me, marriage is something that i want to do.

I otherwise i have pretty traditional views on Marriage.
For me its like binding two souls together!