I generally don't have a problem with SFJ's, I admire their hard work and how much they care for people. So long as they are sane individuals I get along with them just fine. Of course there are times when we don't get along, but as you stated, we are people, it happens with everyone.

I also like them because they lead such different lives from my own and have such different goal sets and morals, and yet can mostly get along with me and understand my motives even though they are so vastly different. And most of my SFJ friends quite enjoy my sense of humor.

Then again, I'm only talking about the ones I am close with, so I wouldn't take this as an over generalization.

 

Technically, ISFJ (Si, Fe, Ti, Ne) is just the reverse of my ENTP functions (Ne, Ti, Fe, Si). I assume that if I use my Fe and Si to understand where the ISFJ is coming from, I wouldn't have a problem with communicating with them. The thing that probably will clash together is the procedural part where a ISFJ would rely on his Si more than his Ne. And since I rely on my Ne more than my Si, we will perceive things differently. This covers for two types of NTs, the INTP (Ti, Ne, Si, Fe) and the ENTP. Though, I have a INTP friend that constantly complains about feelers but that's just probably her bad experiences.

My mom is a ESFJ (Fe, Si, Ne, Ti). We clash a lot in times of conflict but over time I noticed she became less critical of me (and maybe me less critical of her). She used to say things that would make me hate what I am doing like why did I get this ugly haircut, not shave my incriminating facial hair, clean up my infested room. The thing is at the end of the day, I can still understand where she was coming from.

I don't have a problem with SFJ's because I've learned to live with them. I think there are NT's and SFJ's that just don't put enough time to try and understand where they are coming from. That is what leads to conflict, poor communication and anger not types.

Sometimes I don't understand other NT's like the ENTJs and the INTJs who have totally different functions. But that I will respect their opinion more (personal NT bias) because they rely on their head more just in a different manner than I do. This doesn't mean I won't accept a SJ or SP's opinion, it just has to be intuitive and thinking focused. I treat everyone equally and I deal with the issues, not people, so if the issues are dealt with, then we're all happy and can continue our lives.

I'm glad SFJ's are taking the time to understand the NT's. Sometimes the NT's get stuck in their head, you have to pull them back onto the ground and remind them they're human.

 

I don't have a problem with SFJ's because I've learned to live with them. I think there are NT's and SFJ's that just don't put enough time to try and understand where they are coming from. That is what leads to conflict, poor communication and anger not types.

I definitely think you're right, and as someone mentioned in another thread, I think we all have to be careful not to look into type too deeply. I've noticed some animosity between different types on the board sometimes, and I think sometimes people are too quick to judge types that are different than they are. I know a lot of it is blowing off steam, and a lot of it is past bad experiences too. But even though it may be satisfying to learn about type and think "Hey, that's why I don't get along with that person!", we all should be careful not to let that limit us from relationships with new people.

I'm glad SFJ's are taking the time to understand the NT's. Sometimes the NT's get stuck in their head, you have to pull them back onto the ground and remind them they're human.

I know SJ's in general can sometimes get really stuck in their ways and not be as open to different people and different ways of thinking as they should. I'll talk about that more a little later in this post.

As for NT's...I remember reading a comment on here one time by an NT saying that online NT's a lot of times act differently than they do in real life. They have the power to show exactly what parts of them that they want to, hiding their vulnerabilities a lot more than they can in real life. And that makes sense...if an NT wants to stick to intellectual discussions where they're at the peak of their strengths, they can. Unfortunately, in some cases, this may lead to more obnoxious behavior. Of course, this can happen for any one of the four temperaments, but I remind myself sometimes not to take some NT antics as seriously as I would in real life. :wink:

I think my sister is ESFJ. We never got along since early childhood. As adults we are cordial but just tolerate each other's company. She thinks I'm boring and nerdy, and I think she is boring and obnoxious. She and my ISTJ husband HATE Ne. They hate the open-endedness of it, especially my husband who attacks my moral character. My sister just thinks I'm a dork and loves to comment on my (and other people's) appearance/attire. It was funny the first 10,000 times we made fun of each other's appearance, but it gets old. My husband and I have gotten into fights over a fucking paint job on a car. He says I am hard to live with. I think I am easy to get along with unless you push my buttons. I guess to an SJ like my husband or sister, "hard to live with" means I will not let you push me around or treat me like I'm your accessory. Fuck. Another thing I can't stand about SJ's is their way of creating "facts" out of thin air and then using their fabricated facts as points of argument.

Teddy, You have a well-developed intuition.

Yeah...I'm always cautious about tooting my own horn in that regard, because I still don't understand intuitive functions completely. And compared to N's I know, and especially to N's on here, my intuition is very weak. However, I really do believe that compared to a lot S's, especially SJ's, my intuition is pretty strong.

I've come to the belief that it's due to my interaction message boards over the years. I think I've discussed things with people who were probably NT's, so I've gotten used to their way of thinking and not been as scared of it as a lot of SJ's, especially SFJ's, are. I have to remind myself when people talk about SFJ's, a lot of times I'm willing to bet that the ones they're referring to are pretty stuck in their ways and not as adept at rational thinking. Of course, I'm like this to when put in comparison to NT's, but probably not as much as a lot of SFJ's.

For me I like to think back to before I had a lot of these past online conversations though, and I think I can see where I've grown a good bit. As an ISxJ, Si is my dominant function, so my whole world of security and happiness is based on consistency and using the past to live my life out through the present. That's why it's really hard for me to accept new ideas sometimes...because changing my way of thinking takes such a toll on my happiness and security in life.

When I was younger, I would really latch onto ideas a whole lot. So, when I got into conversations with NT's, I was very stubborn and was determined that I wasn't going to change my beliefs. Instead of focusing on the points they were trying to make, I was focusing on out-arguing them. It's because that in my head I felt like there was no way I was going to change my mind, but I was also really scared of looking stupid. Most NT's I had talked to had probably thought about the issues very deeply and objectively, so they were very good at making their points and refuting mine. So I got intimidated, and sometimes get very emotional. The problem was that I was just too scared to let go of certain ways of thinking, and it made it even worse when I got into a conversation and was scared of "losing" the argument. Not only would it make me feel stupid, but I was always afraid that I would lose ground and not have a good, logical reason to hold onto my old belief.


I think what's happened over the years for me is that in a lot of conversations people have appealed to my Fe. When discussing an issue, if someone was able to point out how what I was arguing had the capability of hurting other people, I was a lot more apt to re-think it. That kind of opened the doors into my understanding the importance of objectivity in arguments and why it was important to NT's. By looking at how decisions affected everyone personally, NT's convinced me that it was important to take into account a lot of other factors rather than just my own feelings...and this made me more open to considering new ways of thinking.


I think the other thing too I learned was the aspect of separation. With certain issues, particularly ones that affect a large number of people, I've learned to think more like an NT, and to be as objective as possible in order to be fair to people of very diverse backgrounds. But I've also come to accept that it's ok for me to hold onto certain personal beliefs that make me happy in life, as long as they aren't directly hurting others. I've understood that I can hold those beliefs but it's ok for someone else to hold others because what's important to them is different than what's important to me.


So anyway, like I said, it's quite possible that I have stronger intuitive functions than the average SFJ, and that's something for me to keep in mind. But I'm also clearly an ISFJ, and I like sharing my own personal insights into them as I learn more about NT's and other types as well.

Well Teddy, you're nice though. You have a well-developed intuition. Thanks for listening to my rant.

Aww, thanks. You know just what to say to make an ISFJ feel good and comfortable on the NT part of the forum. :happy:

 

I think my mum may be an ISFJ and she's generally lovely, but we do clash alot (I remember one comment that made me laugh, she said 'Why can't you be more normal?') and I'm friends with an ESFJ (although again we clash, more than I do with my mum I think).

 

I think my sister is ESFJ. We never got along since early childhood. As adults we are cordial but just tolerate each other's company. She thinks I'm boring and nerdy, and I think she is boring and obnoxious. She and my ISTJ husband HATE Ne. They hate the open-endedness of it, especially my husband who attacks my moral character. My sister just thinks I'm a dork and loves to comment on my (and other people's) appearance/attire. It was funny the first 10,000 times we made fun of each other's appearance, but it gets old. My husband and I have gotten into fights over a fucking paint job on a car. He says I am hard to live with. I think I am easy to get along with unless you push my buttons. I guess to an SJ like my husband or sister, "hard to live with" means I will not let you push me around or treat me like I'm your accessory. Fuck. Another thing I can't stand about SJ's is their way of creating "facts" out of thin air and then using their fabricated facts as points of argument.

Well Teddy, you're nice though. You have a well-developed intuition. Thanks for listening to my rant. :laughing:

 

Things I have observed:
SFJs see things in a whole other light
SFJs and I usually understand each other's point of view, but...
We have totally different priorities, leading us to disagree on that point anyway

An important point for me and probably a lot of other NTs, is that feelings don't have much currency in my world. I admit that I'm insensitive, but I don't go around intentionally hurting people's feelings because to me, an attack on feelings is dishonourable and completely invalid. Also, I tend to go off into a mental world (mental in both senses). Sometimes I react externally to things that happen in my mind so if I behave strangely, it probably means that I'm comfortable around you rather than your presence upsets me (this happens to me a lot with ISFJs).

 

As for NT's...I remember reading a comment on here one time by an NT saying that online NT's a lot of times act differently than they do in real life. They have the power to show exactly what parts of them that they want to, hiding their vulnerabilities a lot more than they can in real life. And that makes sense...if an NT wants to stick to intellectual discussions where they're at the peak of their strengths, they can. Unfortunately, in some cases, this may lead to more obnoxious behavior. Of course, this can happen for any one of the four temperaments, but I remind myself sometimes not to take some NT antics as seriously as I would in real life.

I have assumed that many people have a persona they wear online that may or may not resemble their real life persona. On a forum where interaction is not in real time it is easier to research and construct your arguments. I have tended to be more aggressive and argumentative online than in real life just because it is more acceptable online. On the other hand, I have also been more willing to talk about things (such as my feelings or controversial beliefs) that I withhold in real life.

When I was younger, I would really latch onto ideas a whole lot. So, when I got into conversations with NT's, I was very stubborn and was determined that I wasn't going to change my beliefs. Instead of focusing on the points they were trying to make, I was focusing on out-arguing them. It's because that in my head I felt like there was no way I was going to change my mind, but I was also really scared of looking stupid. Most NT's I had talked to had probably thought about the issues very deeply and objectively, so they were very good at making their points and refuting mine. So I got intimidated, and sometimes get very emotional. The problem was that I was just too scared to let go of certain ways of thinking, and it made it even worse when I got into a conversation and was scared of "losing" the argument. Not only would it make me feel stupid, but I was always afraid that I would lose ground and not have a good, logical reason to hold onto my old belief.

Many people including NT's are there to argue and can't or won't give serious consideration to the other point of view. NT's aren't always as objective as they like to think they are and they may have blind spots. This is especially true when dealing with value judgments or things that cannot be understood empirically.

 

I think it goes something like this:

SFJ approaches INTJ with a need for validation, approval, blind belief, agreement, gratitude, recognition etc. INTJ sees this as insecurity and, valuing self-sufficiency, won't be used like that. This refusal to be co-opted as a crutch is interpreted as an outright attack by the other person and is responded to accordingly: the INTJ's distance with devaluation; the lack of praise with insult; the lack of cliche affection markers with hostility and paranoia; and the refusal to bend over backwards for their feelings with a denial the INTJ could ever have any. INTJ considers it inefficient to interact further with someone who has so tenuous a grip on reality and rarely bothers even to retaliate. SFJ consoles self with the idea that INTJ probably eats babies and tortures puppies, as no nice person would fail to ooze validation in response to their greatness/kindness. The INTJ has yet another reason to consider humans needy, vicious, and irrational. Lather, rinse and repeat.

I don't like people who think praise, respect, and affection are things that are a requirement for interacting with people, rather than something to be earned. I don't like people who call my having a different opinion from them an "argument." I don't like people who are so caught up in specific, unreasonable, desires that they ignore the fact that I am treating them very well. I don't like people who expect me to read their minds and anticipate their needs, as if I was for some reason supposed to be thinking about them. I despise passive-aggressiveness. I never lie and I won't be made to = "be someone else and lie to me to make me happy" is the standard demand. I hide nothing, tell the truth, and dislike people who try to tear my "shell" of "coldness" to shreds, so convinced I have to be like them underneath that they refuse to acknowledge that it is my self they are trying to rip apart - and then blame me or diagnose me for not letting go of this "unhealthy mask" to reveal the different person they would rather have underneath, since I am apparently not good enough. I also don't like people who deny me the right to shut the door on relationships that are toxic to me, insisting that it could be fixed and we should all sing songs and hold hands together - especially when "fixing" it in their view is all me acting differently. A door in the face is sometimes the best way of living a healthy life - there is no requirement for me to ever like or respect you. Dislike is not an insult - merely incompatibility. But I don't pick fights or go after them or do anything at all really - just if someone constantly attacks me, I see no reason to consider them a potential friend.

In my experience, SFJs do this very very often to me. NFs as well though, sometimes, but the possibility of communication with the exceptions, and existence thereof, has generally been greater.

 

I think it goes something like this:

SFJ approaches INTJ with a need for validation, approval, blind belief, agreement, gratitude, recognition etc. INTJ sees this as insecurity and, valuing self-sufficiency, won't be used like that. This refusal to be co-opted as a crutch is interpreted as an outright attack by the other person and is responded to accordingly: the INTJ's distance with devaluation; the lack of praise with insult; the lack of cliche affection markers with hostility and paranoia; and the refusal to bend over backwards for their feelings with a denial the INTJ could ever have any. INTJ considers it inefficient to interact further with someone who has so tenuous a grip on reality and rarely bothers even to retaliate. SFJ consoles self with the idea that INTJ probably eats babies and tortures puppies, as no nice person would fail to ooze validation in response to their greatness/kindness. The INTJ has yet another reason to consider humans needy, vicious, and irrational. Lather, rinse and repeat.

So...lirulin basicallly just summed up how my interactions (to this point) have gone with my SFJ friend (and the word 'friend' is tenuous at this point). That need for validation...it just irks me to the point that I do all of the above. Not to mention, the need to validate -me- (e.g., those little "you're so great at that! don't think otherwise!" types of remarks) irk me just as much, if not more. I have huge self-confidence, but sometimes I just want to bitch and complain. Doesn't mean I have lost confidence in myself; nope, I'm just as great as I always have been.

 

SFJs are numerous and therefore vary. I have at least two good SFJ friends, and one though I have almost nothing in common with, we have a lot of history and get along great. The other gets my humor and we just make each other laugh.

 

Interesting, lirulin. I remember you mentioned elsewhere that you hate Fe. I wondered about that but kind of filed it away rather than asking about it at the time. As an inferior-Fe user, it's something I would like to get better at. I appreciate this trait in others but it can be overbearing with some people. I find it overbearing because it feels like they're placing expectations on me that I cannot meet, and if it seems like they're brown-nosing I don't like that. I don't think I've had the experience of an Fe user turning nasty on me, but I can imagine it. I agree it makes a difference whether the Fe user is S or N, and whether it is used as a dom, aux or tert function.

I think there is an excess of misplaced Fe in our culture. Kids are always told "good job" for the most trivial of accomplishments and there are gold stars and rewards galore. I think people like to be appreciated for their efforts, but this kind of over-rewarding actually hurts performance if people become dependent on external rewards rather than internal motivation.

 

I think my experience with sfjs has been tainted. The one I know just happens to be my mom and I doubt she realizes I have the ability to think for myself. Especially, logically forming opinions that go against hers. we clash nearly constantly if we talk or just listen to each other talk to others it definitely begins invoking anger and annoyance. She also has quirks, a lot of quirks, and believes that everything should be suited to her and her beliefs ( and quirks) because "it's right". Dogmatic reasoning / thought and adherence to frivolous physical things causes most clashes. (shes also a hoarder) I think I could get along with sfj's and sj's in general as long as they aren't in charge or hold authority over me in anyway. Essentially where ever their dogmatic thinking can't directly effect me.

 

I actually think this is something that's quite common, and I think it's a major reason why a lot of N's have problems with SJ's. Because SJ's thrive on structure and routine, they usually establish a lot of strict rules and beliefs when in a leadership role. So if an N has an SJ for a parent, teacher, boss, or other authority figure, they're likely to get choked out by all of the firm structure the SJ imposes on them. This is probably even more pronounced when the other preferences are opposite as well.

Of course, it's not the only situation or reason that causes N's to have problems with SJ's, but I get the impression that it's a factor pretty often.

 

I normally have problems with SFJ's. It's more of the polite vs pragmatic type of arguement.

 

I can get along quite well with SFJ's. They can definitely frustrate me, and I can't ever be much more than 50% "myself" around them. But that's not really a bad thing for me, as long as there's some relief.

This isn't making me sound like I get along with SFJ's.

50% of me gets along pretty well with SFJ's, and the other 50% is pretty mellow about taking the backseat.

I don't think there's anything I can tell SFJ's to improve upon. SJ's by definition aren't people you can easily influence and change, no matter how perfect your effort. I would like SJ's to understand the meaning of what I say without me having to spell it out for them. I'd like ISFJ's to remind themselves to perform a bit of a manual override on their Fi when conversing with me, perhaps recalling for more than 5 seconds that I have my own style of communicating and it's never to be taken personally. I've learned not to push change on SFJ's though, and that they come to it on their own over time, if it's going to happen at all. I get along much worse with STJ's.

 

I can get along quite well with SFJ's. They can definitely frustrate me, and I can't ever be much more than 50% "myself" around them. But that's not really a bad thing for me, as long as there's some relief.

That just summed up what I've been feeling for the past six+ years living at home. All the musing I've done about that feeling easily summed up, as 50% of a whole. Thanks.

 

I really, really don't get along with my ISFJ mother, and most of the people who get on my nerves are xSFJs. However, I've also got a few friends I suspect of falling into that category, so I don't like to make sweeping generalizations and say I don't get along with anyone of the type. For instance, I like your grammar and obvious intelligence, OP, so I already like you. :laughing:

It seems to me that I usually have problems with xSFJs when they're in a position of a power (ie. parent, teacher). One of the worst things you can do to an INTJ is disparage the way they do things and then say something like "don't you dare walk away from me!" when they start to get angry. They're walking away because they need space to keep from behaving in a hurtful manner, and if they're forced to stay in the situation, they can get really, really resentful.

I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm guessing that you already know this, but I just had to put in my two cents. If an NT is permitted to have their personal space when they get annoyed, I'm sure a friendship is still quite viable.

Another important thing is not to assume an INTJ is angry when they get enthusiastic while debating. Nothing is more exasperating than trying to discuss politics with my mother only to have her wail, "Why do you always get so angry!" when I'm merely being emphatic about a point. We're not trying to hurt you guys; we can just be naturally out-of-tune with how we make other people feel sometimes. :crazy:

Once again, I'm sure people have already brought this up, but I'm just adding another vote for "It's good not to take things personally when you're around NTs."

 

SFJ's are obsessed with being "normal"
I think normal is stupid.

You see where this is heading.

oh and SFJ's are generally longwinded.

 

I want to revisit this thread because a couple of things about NT's and SFJ's have popped up in a couple of other threads I posted in and it's got me thinking about things again.



The first thing that I'm realizing is that oftentimes communication problems between S's and N's lead to a lot of frustrations between NT's and SFJ's.

Even though I made a lot of long posts in this thread, it got me thinking quite a bit:

http://personalitycafe.com/entp-forum-visionaries/40118-sensing-vs-intuition.html


Now, I don't want to speak for N's, I'm just giving my general impression. Like the guy in the first video, I get the impression that a lot of times N's feel that S's bog them down. Most don't come out and say it, but I can't help but wonder if N's don't feel like S's are slower, or that their minds work too basically. They feel like they can see things that an S doesn't (and to a degree they probably do).

N's naturally piece things together and make a lot of mental jumps. Unless S's develop their intuition, they can't do that. So an N probably gets frustrated by having to spell out a lot of details to an S that are obvious to them. Meanwhile, an S gets frustrated with the N because they view them as unclear. The S can't see all of the mental jumps that the N is making, so the misinterpret things the N says.

Basically, I don't want to say that a lot of times N's feel like S's are dumber than them...but that's what it feels like a lot of times. Maybe this is just my own personal lack of intuition (or my inferior Ne) giving me a vibe that's not true. But I think that leads to some personal resentment. As an S, I'm not trying to slow down an N. It's just that I can't feel comfortable communicating with them unless I know exactly what they mean. I can develop my intuition, but I'll never be able to see all of those connections as quickly.


Now, when it comes to SF's and NF's, I don't think is quite as big of a deal. Because both types are feelers, they're more willing to be sensitive to the other person's needs, so they can kind of work around the miscommunications. I think this gets a lot stickier in romantic relationships, but generally it works out well.

I'm not exactly sure how it works with ST's and NT's. I guess they somehow work through it too.


But with SF's and NT's...you can see how it can become a disaster. That's because an NT will say all kinds of things that the SF probably won't understand, interpret or perceive in the way the NT meant for it to be. Lacking the intuition to piece together all of the details, the SF will often take it as a personal attack and be hurt by it. This leads to the SF shutting out the NT, and the NT either thinking the SF is annoyingly too sensitive or is dumb for misunderstanding what they meant.


Unfortunately, I don't really know the best way to resolve this, and I think I'm actually going to make a thread about it.

 

Most of the people I dislike(d) we/are xSFJs - especially ESFJs, (please note that this does not go in reverse - I do not dislike MOST xSFJs), but they're pretty predominant in the population, so I learned to cope. Sometimes with alcohol.

 

I do ok with STs except when they take ten sentences to communicate something I understood in the first five words and they tend to hate being interrupted and think I am "judging too fast" or "leaping to conclusions." It's as if they think they're the first person to tell me the idea so I cannot already know it from elsewhere. Low efficiency communication. I just witnessed an INFP an ENFP discussing how frustrating it is to not to be able interrupt an ISxJ and have to wait for paragraphs on the same thing - and the entire conversation they had about this was talking over each other - synergy, according to the ENFP. It was kinda funny. SFs it is definitely much worse.

Definitely a lot of Ns have a superiority complex. But Ss can treat me like a moron because I ignore or forget little things & treat me like an impractical dreamer so it can go both ways.

 

I do ok with STs except when they take ten sentences to communicate something I understood in the first five words and they tend to hate being interrupted and think I am "judging too fast" or "leaping to conclusions." It's as if they think they're the first person to tell me the idea so I cannot already know it from elsewhere. Low efficiency communication. I just witnessed an INFP an ENFP discussing how frustrating it is to not to be able interrupt an ISxJ and have to wait for paragraphs on the same thing - and the entire conversation they had about this was talking over each other - synergy, according to the ENFP. It was kinda funny. SFs it is definitely much worse.

I think part of the reason why ISJ's do that is also because we encounter so many people who do jump to the wrong conclusions, or misinterpret what we're saying because they interrupt us before we finish. Of course, most of these people are probably S's, and probably almost none of them are NT's. So the problem is that if an ISJ doesn't know that the person is an NT and is capable of jumping to the correct conclusion, the ISJ is going to try to save time to eliminate any misunderstandings by being thorough in the original explanation.

I see this all of the time as a math teacher, and it's very frustrating. If I only taught the bright NT's, it would be fantastic and easy. But the problem is while I'm teaching, they're already jumping to conclusions and trying to yell things out before I've even gotten to that part of a problem, so if I don't stop them it confuses the others and makes a big mess. (Granted, these are probably ENT's, and some of them are probably EST's or maybe even EF's).

But that's a whole entire issue that would take pages and pages to discuss...the difference between S's and N's in math education. :wink:

 

SFJ approaches INTJ with a need for validation, approval, blind belief, agreement, gratitude, recognition etc.

But if you give them this, they, in turn, surrender something far more valuable. The power to resist you. >

 

...yay, I have someone I can manipulate?

Gosh, I love surrounding myself with people like that. :dry:

 

Generally, I don't understand them (not the same thing as not getting along), but the funny thing is...most of my father figures in early childhood and adolescence were SFJ or ENTP, almost every single one of them, people with the same functions but ordererd differently. Despite our being very different, I had a lot of awe and respect for them, as they were strong in things I was weak in. (I guess the ENTP's weren't too different, but since the auxillary has often been referred to as a "mentor" there was still a sense of respect and aspiration). Sort of off topic, but I just thought I'd share that.

 

I have NOT read through all posts (made page 1 though). I am impressed with your, @teddy564339, wisdom. I think many NTs (as well as others) will benefit from reading your posts.

Openness and understanding is key. Interestingly: have you felt that you transition somewhat towards ISFP during your path of understanding MBTI types and NTs? Just wondering.... SJs are not normally this interested in these kind of things, unfortuantely. Not in my surroundings at least. They are more prone to quickly judge it abstract, fuzzy nonsense instead.

Kudos to you.

 

It is a good video.

I don''t require anyone to imagine what I have read or heard outside the conversation though. Just to hold the basic awareness that, just as what he is bringing to the conversation is based on what he heard elsewhere, I also might have a similar basis - outside the conversation. Exactly the same as he. I don't see how that is a "jump."

 

Well, I agree he should have that basic awareness, and if he doesn't I don't know how to attribute that to type, it may be something else about him. I guess the only thing I could say is that maybe because he doesn't know or see clearly what that basis is for you, he may be less likely to think about it. He knows what his own basis is, but doesn't know yours.

 

SFJs... I only know a few personally.

Here are my problems with them:
- I find them a touch pushy a lot of the time (ESFJs more so than the I)
- They tend to comment on people's appearances too much for my liking (though it seems to S's in general, SFJs seem to like to point out what they find wrong and tell you to change it)

Not too many problems really. I actually find ISFJs quite interesting, and more mature ESFJs are nice for conversing with. I just don't think I could ever get involved with one as they seem to not be able to understand my goals and priorities in life (i.e, why I have them). Overall, I guess what I'm trying to say is... that we're good on a superficial level.

 

I've typed my mother as an ESFJ (And I hate her!). While my problems with these types of people aren't specifically related to their type, it's more based on how xSFJs see the world in comparison to me: a tendency to be EXTREMELY superficial and to have lots of generalisations. What repels me from these types of people is when they think they're right in how they see things, and that anything that doesn't agree with them is wrong. I know there are xSFJs who aren't like this, and in my eyes those people are much easier to get along with than the xSFJs I'm more familiar with.

 

Two of my bestest friends and my ex (7 year relationship) are ISFJs. They are all lovely people; incredibly caring, responsible, loyal, morally upstanding, sensitive, with an eye for beauty and a deep emotional connection to many things (personal possessions, music, movies). <3 They are nothing like me, haha.

They also all struggle with anxiety, resentment, martyr complexes, forming healthy relationships where their needs are also met rather than just GIVING until they are drained dry, and sharing their (many, very deep and overwhelming!) feelings. In the case of my friends, this has been something I've been able to help them with, and they've never resented me, etc. In the case of my ex all of the above were MAJOR issues within the relationship. Some of them were mostly his fault, but when it came down to it, I think our needs and communication styles were just too vastly different for us to truly be happy together.

 

Not true. I'm texting an ESFJ now and we're having a good laugh.

While we're relaxed and having a good time, I don't generally have an issue with SFJs. I've noticed that during stressful situations, they tend to get irritated with me for appearing to not take things seriously (which is really just me trying to laugh things off. Also, they (and sensors in general) tend to see me as very day-dreamy, and I constantly get called out for not paying attention to my surroundings when I'm around them. We can occasionally wear on each other's nerves, especially when we don't see eye-to-eye. Being opposites, differing opinions is to be expected. I find it's really a matter of learning to communicate with someone who's different from you. And both parties need to be able to do this. Not just one, otherwise that one person will get irritated.

I have lots of S(F)J's in my extended family. We usually get along well. But I'm still the most laid-back out of all of them :tongue: