How different are these two types considering the differences between the 5w4 and the 5w6 subtype; How differently does intjness manifest in them?
INTJ 5w4 vs INTJ 5w6
BlueBlack
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Exactly.
I'm a female INTJ 5w4 and I am not as "people oriented", as sensate, for lack of a better term, as I would think a 5w6 would be. I have a degree in the arts, work occasionally as a freelance artist, am a theist, and am very into spirituality. I don't see 5w6s as interested in these metaphysical aspects as much as I am. I have absoltuely zero interest in peopling or leadership but when I am forced to do it, in short spurts I'm OK with it and can manage well. Almost as well as an ENTJ in fact!
but this take tons of effort to fuel and I simply don't have the patience or the emotional resources to do that for very long.Pursuing what I've been interested in (and yes, a personal moral/philosophical/metaphysical journey) has benefitted me I think greatly compared to simply pursuing career and money, which has already totally burned me out once.
(whoops and I just realized my profile is wrong, it has 5w6....*fixes that**)
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"Autistic?" What you're describing sounds more like schizotypy. Schizotypycanoe and Tyler Durden too!
:wink:
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Hello! After discovering that I'm most likely an INTJ 5w4 sp/sx I was browsing at more info about this and I saw you mention that you have a degree in classical performance. I could'nt resist registering to send you a message because, I am a late start-self taught amateur pianist.I have reached quite high skills but I have severe stage fright issues when performing and thought you may be helpful regarding that, and also I am really interested in how we compare to each other. I'm 26 btw. I really hope you read the message sometime and reply. Have a great day!
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To all you INTJ's:
Is it just me or being so dissapointed in the world could be related to our type. I'm definitly not depressed, in fact most of the times in the recent couple of years I am quite positive and despite not being generaly very social and isolating I do have relativly many friends, but the daily experience of how things go in todays society, even troughout the world, hurts so bad. I am sort of accepting it by realising that the best impact I can do Is get the most out of myself and make the world a slightly better place by my achievements.
Is it just me or being so dissapointed in the world could be related to our type. I'm definitly not depressed, in fact most of the times in the recent couple of years I am quite positive and despite not being generaly very social and isolating I do have relativly many friends, but the daily experience of how things go in todays society, even troughout the world, hurts so bad. I am sort of accepting it by realising that the best impact I can do Is get the most out of myself and make the world a slightly better place by my achievements.
Michael Pierce talks a bit about that in his revisited INTJ type video, basically how INTJs tend to see connections and trends where other people fail to see them. Which would include being acutely aware of the bad things happening in the world, all the injustice and violence, reasons why it's happening and being unable to make any major impact on the situation. Like you, I tend to try making the world a better place in small ways. I think it's remarkable that you are not depressed and strive to something instead of completely giving up.
INTJ 5w4. For me it means having a distinct artistic bent. I do work in IT currently (website development/management) and I've studied social sciences. For a while I made living by doing art and to this day it still makes considerable part of my income. Some may argue that fractal art, being based on mathematics and code is closer to programming than drawing... science producing art, something like that.
I'm cautious atheist/agnostic - I don't believe in any god but I think that there may be things influencing our life, invisible like gravity that we haven't discovered yet or that are maybe impossible to discover due to constrains of how we perceive time/space etc. as humans.
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As an INTJ 5w4 sp/sx, I am quite involved in metaphysical and occult subjects - though primarily concerning the research and evaluation of them. I view their codifications/structures as systems.
A rough process outline utilizing critical thinking would consist of:
- disassembling a subject in these areas
- mapping its core principles and constellation of attributes
- objectively identifying and examining each element (without presuppositions) in accordance with the claims of the subject and its adherents in order to sort each into initial categories of veracity and effectiveness
- arriving at initial qualified conclusions
- engaging in deeper examination of each element and, if necessary, limited practical application
- re-qualifying and recategorizing each examined element as necessary as to their various levels of veracity and effectiveness
- assembling conclusions and arguments, adjusting initial conclusions as necessary
- remaining open to the veracity of new facts and/or claims by adherents as they arise that may re-adjust my findings
Over the years, I have been deeply involved in the Tarot, Astrology, Numerology, and several variations of Ceremonial and Pagan/Wiccan Magic(k).
Metaphysical subjects have included various current and historical religions (...myself an Ignostic), including Pagan/Wiccan, as well as cosmology and ontology.
Philosophy, in general, is and has always been a major consideration of mine. I lean more toward the Continental philosophers, mainly Existentialist and Absurdist thought (Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Jaspers, Heidegger, Sartre, Camus, etc.).
Artistically, I design/construct WordPress themes as well as install/maintain WordPress websites.
I am proficient on guitar and electric bass.
When the 'mood' strikes, I draw (graphite/ink), work with 2D graphic programs, and have been 'inspired' to write some poetry.
A rough process outline utilizing critical thinking would consist of:
- disassembling a subject in these areas
- mapping its core principles and constellation of attributes
- objectively identifying and examining each element (without presuppositions) in accordance with the claims of the subject and its adherents in order to sort each into initial categories of veracity and effectiveness
- arriving at initial qualified conclusions
- engaging in deeper examination of each element and, if necessary, limited practical application
- re-qualifying and recategorizing each examined element as necessary as to their various levels of veracity and effectiveness
- assembling conclusions and arguments, adjusting initial conclusions as necessary
- remaining open to the veracity of new facts and/or claims by adherents as they arise that may re-adjust my findings
Over the years, I have been deeply involved in the Tarot, Astrology, Numerology, and several variations of Ceremonial and Pagan/Wiccan Magic(k).
Metaphysical subjects have included various current and historical religions (...myself an Ignostic), including Pagan/Wiccan, as well as cosmology and ontology.
Philosophy, in general, is and has always been a major consideration of mine. I lean more toward the Continental philosophers, mainly Existentialist and Absurdist thought (Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Jaspers, Heidegger, Sartre, Camus, etc.).
Artistically, I design/construct WordPress themes as well as install/maintain WordPress websites.
I am proficient on guitar and electric bass.
When the 'mood' strikes, I draw (graphite/ink), work with 2D graphic programs, and have been 'inspired' to write some poetry.
I'm an INTP, not INTJ, but my P is relatively weak. I'm also 5w4. I do think that INTJ 5s are more likely to lean to 6 than to 4.
Even as a perceptive person, I do have a strong sense of justice and am very disturbed by the world and things I see in it. I love art and literature, and all the more so if it has a dark side to it. I do subscribe to a faith system, but have a lot of trouble following authority and have no trouble going against it if I see injustice or inconsistency.
Even as a perceptive person, I do have a strong sense of justice and am very disturbed by the world and things I see in it. I love art and literature, and all the more so if it has a dark side to it. I do subscribe to a faith system, but have a lot of trouble following authority and have no trouble going against it if I see injustice or inconsistency.
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3 Posts
In the recent week, I've been really into understanding the Enneagram more and more after reading Russ Hudsons The Wisdom of the Enneagram book. I was actually blown away because my first impression was that the Enneagram is the key to somehow connect science, religion, and art. I felt that I discovered some pieces of puzzles that I wasn't sure they exist at all.
BUT! paradoxically (as a true Iconoclast) I doubt the Enneagram deserves to even get the amount of attention as MBTI gets. I feel like while the Enneagram does have it's truths, It is kind of hit or miss and let me tell you why I feel that way.
Of course, I start the analyzing from myself.
- The best I can categorize myself is a 5 although I really feel like one part of my life I was more of a 4. The description of the INTJ is much more spot on of what it actually says about me. When I look at my INTJ friend who is not really similar to me I can confirm that all of the INTJ characteristics are basically true to both of us. What bothers me about the enneagram is the same thing what had blown my mind at first. You just can't take them as facts in every case! You can differentiate between 5w4, 5, 5w6, 5 with both wings, but IF a 5 exists then it's just not true that there are only so few variations of it! And it is based on what? Observations of centuries? It is just not enough fact-driven, that is what bothers me and at the same time, I can find quite a few descriptions which very much nail it describing some of my acquaintances.
- Another thing that is bothering me, that the guys who are teaching this stuff they are literally just GUESSING!? (example: the growth and stress points proved to be untrue, which they claim it was only a suggestion ?!?! ... so why is it spread than in multiple books?). So apparently they come up with things and integrate it into the "logic" of the Enneagram, but if it proves to be wrong then they alter it or just get rid of it. If it is a true, authentic source of self-understanding than it should be a mirror! but this mirror is showing you one of the created standards to which you fall closest. I don't know if I am being clear enough on what I want to say.
Despite all the 5w4 commonalities, everyone seems to be very different from me. I am not and have never been attracted to any "darkish" subject. I do have a very strong passion for classical piano playing, mostly romantic but in general classical music, and I somewhat feel that it's about the only existing truly holy thing in this world that was left for us by the geniuses (others may find the same satisfying feeling in another art form). I question anything and everything, including myself of course. I question the same things from time to time because as time goes by the answers to them may lose the validness. A lot of people can not cope with this questioning attitude I have and there is no correlation between them with their MBTI or Egram. I may be oversensitive when I feel targeted by others or even if I just feel the chance of being targeted and this is probably the biggest reason why I am trying so hard to become my best self... so I can correct my errors and be able to live the fullest life. I would appreciate any help I can get with this (the feeling of being targeted).
This feeling of being targeted causes a severe problem for me with performing in front of people, especially if it is a great importance to me. This anxiety translates to trembling hands if I am playing piano, trembling voice if it's a speech, trembling legs if it's about the legwork and so on. In general, I get choppy movements and loss of control. I've been to a neurologist and according to him, I have no neurological issues. I am afraid of the reactions (not only of the criticism but also every kind of direct or indirect impact it can have on me) and also I find it hard to decide what to believe and what not to. (Yep, Iconoclast, like I told you I question anything, any critic, any doctor, I don't trust anything in this world until I feel that it can be trusted). I would even struggle to take compliments (which could be even from the closest people to me) if I feel that my mistakes don't justify it (which were caused by the anxiety in the first place). So how do you break out from this devils circle?
The truth is that I have no idea of how the outside world perceives me in the moment: how I talk, how I act. I always get surprised when I see or hear myself on a recording how I speak, how I act, how I am. It's totally not how I expect myself to seem like. I consider myself to have very good inner self-awareness but probably no outer. I also don't like to forcefully adopt "tried and true" standards in anything, just because it doesn't feel natural to me (acting in a certain way). So there is this conflict in me, which I would like to solve by creating a better me, and defeating my fears etc, and to be an honest while, I know I am making progress of being a better self, a better human being with others but I don't see these problems of mine getting closer to being solved.
Sorry, for the long post, I really needed to get this out of me.
BUT! paradoxically (as a true Iconoclast) I doubt the Enneagram deserves to even get the amount of attention as MBTI gets. I feel like while the Enneagram does have it's truths, It is kind of hit or miss and let me tell you why I feel that way.
Of course, I start the analyzing from myself.
- The best I can categorize myself is a 5 although I really feel like one part of my life I was more of a 4. The description of the INTJ is much more spot on of what it actually says about me. When I look at my INTJ friend who is not really similar to me I can confirm that all of the INTJ characteristics are basically true to both of us. What bothers me about the enneagram is the same thing what had blown my mind at first. You just can't take them as facts in every case! You can differentiate between 5w4, 5, 5w6, 5 with both wings, but IF a 5 exists then it's just not true that there are only so few variations of it! And it is based on what? Observations of centuries? It is just not enough fact-driven, that is what bothers me and at the same time, I can find quite a few descriptions which very much nail it describing some of my acquaintances.
- Another thing that is bothering me, that the guys who are teaching this stuff they are literally just GUESSING!? (example: the growth and stress points proved to be untrue, which they claim it was only a suggestion ?!?! ... so why is it spread than in multiple books?). So apparently they come up with things and integrate it into the "logic" of the Enneagram, but if it proves to be wrong then they alter it or just get rid of it. If it is a true, authentic source of self-understanding than it should be a mirror! but this mirror is showing you one of the created standards to which you fall closest. I don't know if I am being clear enough on what I want to say.
Despite all the 5w4 commonalities, everyone seems to be very different from me. I am not and have never been attracted to any "darkish" subject. I do have a very strong passion for classical piano playing, mostly romantic but in general classical music, and I somewhat feel that it's about the only existing truly holy thing in this world that was left for us by the geniuses (others may find the same satisfying feeling in another art form). I question anything and everything, including myself of course. I question the same things from time to time because as time goes by the answers to them may lose the validness. A lot of people can not cope with this questioning attitude I have and there is no correlation between them with their MBTI or Egram. I may be oversensitive when I feel targeted by others or even if I just feel the chance of being targeted and this is probably the biggest reason why I am trying so hard to become my best self... so I can correct my errors and be able to live the fullest life. I would appreciate any help I can get with this (the feeling of being targeted).
This feeling of being targeted causes a severe problem for me with performing in front of people, especially if it is a great importance to me. This anxiety translates to trembling hands if I am playing piano, trembling voice if it's a speech, trembling legs if it's about the legwork and so on. In general, I get choppy movements and loss of control. I've been to a neurologist and according to him, I have no neurological issues. I am afraid of the reactions (not only of the criticism but also every kind of direct or indirect impact it can have on me) and also I find it hard to decide what to believe and what not to. (Yep, Iconoclast, like I told you I question anything, any critic, any doctor, I don't trust anything in this world until I feel that it can be trusted). I would even struggle to take compliments (which could be even from the closest people to me) if I feel that my mistakes don't justify it (which were caused by the anxiety in the first place). So how do you break out from this devils circle?
The truth is that I have no idea of how the outside world perceives me in the moment: how I talk, how I act. I always get surprised when I see or hear myself on a recording how I speak, how I act, how I am. It's totally not how I expect myself to seem like. I consider myself to have very good inner self-awareness but probably no outer. I also don't like to forcefully adopt "tried and true" standards in anything, just because it doesn't feel natural to me (acting in a certain way). So there is this conflict in me, which I would like to solve by creating a better me, and defeating my fears etc, and to be an honest while, I know I am making progress of being a better self, a better human being with others but I don't see these problems of mine getting closer to being solved.
Sorry, for the long post, I really needed to get this out of me.
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As an 5w6 I still have a keen interest in philosophy, psychology and art. (I do paint, photography, learning to play the viol etc.)
I still do enjoy STEM quite a bit, as do I have a practical side to me. (crafts; such as lapidary and blacksmithing)
Not so much the spiritual/religious side though, I was done studying that at 18.
I still do enjoy STEM quite a bit, as do I have a practical side to me. (crafts; such as lapidary and blacksmithing)
Not so much the spiritual/religious side though, I was done studying that at 18.
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7 Posts
Personally, I don't really focus on distinctions like more artsy etc. when it comes to making the decision. I mean, an 8 could be super artsy too, and it would say nothing for their type specifically. It's just an individual personality quirk, even if certain types/wings are more likely to exhibit such behavior and preferences.
I know I'm not a 5w6 mostly due to the fact that I can't quite relate to the whole nervous/anxious energy of the 6, and just their whole core fear and all that. I'd sooner go towards 8 in that regard (which I'm pretty sure is in my tritype anyhow). Plus, my best friend is a perfect example of a 6 (she's an INFP), and oh boy I so don't really relate to her most of the time. She keeps overthinking all the possible worst case scenarios of everything and just stressing like crazy, and all I can do is stare and be like why? All these insignificant indecisiveness stuff and insecurity in everything even drives me up the wall at times. :frustrating:
I know I'm not a 5w6 mostly due to the fact that I can't quite relate to the whole nervous/anxious energy of the 6, and just their whole core fear and all that. I'd sooner go towards 8 in that regard (which I'm pretty sure is in my tritype anyhow). Plus, my best friend is a perfect example of a 6 (she's an INFP), and oh boy I so don't really relate to her most of the time. She keeps overthinking all the possible worst case scenarios of everything and just stressing like crazy, and all I can do is stare and be like why? All these insignificant indecisiveness stuff and insecurity in everything even drives me up the wall at times. :frustrating:
Don't know how I found this thread again, but I'm adding on to the 5w4 pile. I'm a chemist who writes, read tarot and has probably "researched" nearly every sect of American witchcraft and Black American rootwork (or hoodoo). Got back into drawing and started watercolor painting this year and plan to keep at it.
As for 6s not being creative because they're more into science, that's an unfair stereotype regarding STEM. It takes creativity coupled with intellectual curiosity to problem solve as chemist, engineer, biologist, etc.
I will say that hard fact-based sciences, like physics, maths and biology were harder for me to grasp, though. I came close to failing physics and could not stand bio, but excelled at theoretics for chemistry, especially inorganics and pchem instrumentation.
(It took me months to realize that the "cycle of respiration" was breathing, but I could understand polymerization in minutes)
And now that I have the time to lean all in to my creative, mystic side, I feel more like a bad ass INFP than a regular degular INTJ.
As for 6s not being creative because they're more into science, that's an unfair stereotype regarding STEM. It takes creativity coupled with intellectual curiosity to problem solve as chemist, engineer, biologist, etc.
I will say that hard fact-based sciences, like physics, maths and biology were harder for me to grasp, though. I came close to failing physics and could not stand bio, but excelled at theoretics for chemistry, especially inorganics and pchem instrumentation.
(It took me months to realize that the "cycle of respiration" was breathing, but I could understand polymerization in minutes)
And now that I have the time to lean all in to my creative, mystic side, I feel more like a bad ass INFP than a regular degular INTJ.
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In all intj fashion: change it, most likely break it. That’s what we’re good at anyway.
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In INTJ fashion: Change it, better yet, break it. I don’t have to know you to know you want to innovate and frustrated the way things are.
Lean into your action functions, and learn how to grow from the functions you are using now. It’s actually an INTJ growth path that allows for us to become what we envision. Good luck.
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