[Treblemaker]

My goodness, Mr. ISTJ, you seem very sweet and sensitive. I have to open my mind a LOT. Most of the ISTJs with whom I have interacted have been (esp. the females) bossy, domineering, close-minded, hyper-conservative, uncreative, RigidRigidRigid, and extremely judgmental. Lots of cold anger when people approach life differently. We ENFPs, who are a lot like Tigger from Winnie the Pooh, generally are not well-received.

But...you sound very different. Nice to meet you!

 

[Ballast]

This is lovely. Thanks a lot!

Just had a few thoughts/questions.

Alright, so you've sent that message but I'm still not making the move. You're getting impatient waiting for a terribly long time, and you’re getting frustrated because I’m not doing anything. Here’s what to do. First, if you’re pretty confident I like you, and I’m not making a move, set me up for an opportunity. ... I’m a traditionalist, and it’s very important to me to feel like the initiator and the leader in a relationship, I’m just terrible at it and sometimes need a lot of encouragement. Try to avoid asking me out directly, but you have all sorts of leeway as long as I can still persuade myself I’m doing things the right way. After a while, I’ll make that move you were waiting for.

It's confusing to me to say you want things done a certain way (you want to be in control, initiate, and lead) but then hesitate to make any of the first moves, thus requiring the other person to make the first move, but not directly, because you still want to be fully in control. If you want to be in control, why not just...act? It is a long process for me to decide on something, to analyze, to deliberate, to weigh everything. But once I want something and I've decided on it, that's it.

No, I understand being afraid of rejection and uncertain of the other party's feelings, absolutely. But I think this is a bit of a double standard. You can't be both the initiator and the passive recipient at the same time. And as an INTJ, I can't wrap my head around the protocol of asking you out--only indirectly and with other friends, preferably in a written-communication format, for an unspecified amount of time with little in the way of exacting confirmation from you in terms of where you see things going--to gauge your interest and let you feel like you're in control while you hang back and don't initiate things yourself. The above requires exactly the kind of mind-reading you yourself struggle with in others. You, like you state, would have to tell me directly how you want to be asked out and how not to rush you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think you speak for a lot of people in general regarding how quickly to take things and how soon to act on a decision once it's been made, and while both ISTJs and INTJs take the same kinds of things seriously and deliberate intensely on a decision, it seems maybe we have different approaches. I have the issue of being very impatient and very, well...goal-oriented when I've set my sights on something. It's not that I'm aggressive, heavens no. I'm as shy and reserved and hesitant with relationships as anyone. But once I've made up my mind, I don't dally. I don't dither. I'm afraid that if I did, the opportunity would pass me by. And more than anything, I would rather know for certain what to expect and what the parameters are then spend any more time in limbo. (Which may lead me to act too soon in defining those parameters--not just in terms of labeling the relationship but in any situation where this might be applicable. And I'm just as quick to define them unfavorably towards my wishes as favorably because I'm interested in knowing the parameters, period. Whereas others would rather have no definition than the wrong definition, or a definition they might end up having to change later.)

I only say this because if there were a type I'd want to get serious about understanding, relationship-wise, it'd be this one. We're so similar and just different enough to not realize when we're saying the same thing but differently or coming at it from different angles. And of course, I'm seeing intuitive patterns and abstract data and potentials that add other dimensions (or possibly confusion) to any given situation wherein I'm needing to make a decision.

That aside, what kinds of conversations do you like to have when you're getting to know someone you're interested in? What sorts of things would you like to talk about and what sorts of things would you rather not talk about?

Thanks for the lovely insights, again. This was great.

 

[joe_the_buckeye]

My goodness, Mr. ISTJ, you seem very sweet and sensitive. I have to open my mind a LOT. Most of the ISTJs with whom I have interacted have been (esp. the females) bossy, domineering, close-minded, hyper-conservative, uncreative, RigidRigidRigid, and extremely judgmental. Lots of cold anger when people approach life differently. We ENFPs, who are a lot like Tigger from Winnie the Pooh, generally are not well-received.

But...you sound very different. Nice to meet you!

Glad to hear it! People like you are exactly the reason I wrote it, so I'm glad to hear it helped you open your mind to us ISTJ guys a little bit. And I like Tigger--he just needs to get his work done before he parties... =)

 

[joe_the_buckeye]

@Ballast

Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you enjoyed my post. I'm not sure how type-specific any of my answers below are, but maybe someone else here will have some better input as far as the ISTJ type is concerned. I'm pretty new at MBTI, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to present the ISTJ perspective--so in that vein, I mean all of this from my individual, rather than type, perspective.

It is confusing and I fully admit the double standard. Largely though, the scenario of pseudo-initiation (I'm going to start using that word in real life now lol) I was proposing was meant as a solution to impatience with my slowness in initiating by myself. The best-case scenario for me would be to be around a girl in whom I'm interested in a group context (at least semi-incidentally) for an extended period of time--giving me the opportunity to get to know her and have the chance to observe the way she responds to me. Ideally then, I'll have a chance to test the waters (mild flirtation/conversation/etc.) and gauge the girl's interest. Quite likely, I'll use the same pseudo-initiation process I described (or something similar) with the girl and see how that works. If the girl responds well (general observations might include: smiles when I make eye contact, makes an effort to talk to me, responds quickly to my texts, makes conversation when I initiate contact via text, is interested in group activities that I'm involved in, etc.), I'll take action and tell her that I'd like to get to know her better and ask her if that's something she'd be interested in and comfortable with (in which case I'll then ask her father for permission, if possible and appropriate).

Also, just for the record, if I try something like this and she declines, I will be very unlikely to try again, unless she makes an effort to demonstrate that her feelings have changed. I base my decisions of past experience, so if past experience indicates likely failure, I'm probably not going to try again unless something happens that clearly indicates a changed perspective (think: she proposes to me...) :laughing: That's overstating it, but you get the point.

Semi-relevant side note: Playing hard-to-get is counter-productive if you're trying to get me interested in you. I might find it attractive and mysterious, but I will probably interpret it as exactly what it appears to be (disinterest) and move on. I'm not generally drawn to girls who aren't interested in me (platonically or romantically), and I take things at face-value, so just something to keep in mind. I tend to translate hard-to-get to not-worth-trying-for.

Oh, and girls of all types out there, if you're not interested, show some mercy (but be clear) to the poor ISTJ guy who's throwing himself at your feet. It took me a long time to get to that point...as in, well...you have no idea. :laughing:

As far as definition is concerned, I do like things to be very clear. But if I feel like it's time to define a relationship, I'll bring up the topic. Prior to the time I tell the girl of my interest in getting to know her better, I'm not anxious to define anything, however. I'd rather let things take their course and when I feel sure of my own decision, and at least fairly confident of the girl's response, take the step of informing her of my interest and seeing how she feels.

After that has taken place, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with the girl asking me where I felt things were going, but I'd feel terrible that I hadn't been clear enough and hadn't brought up the topic first. I firmly believe it's my responsibility, once a relationship has begun, to be explicitly clear as far as my own feelings. And you know how ISTJs are about responsibilities... :laughing:

If I've taken that step of asking the girl for permission to get to know her better, then from then on, I feel it's my responsibility to make sure she understands how I think things are going. I might be hard to read, because I'm not always open about my emotions, but I would absolutely try to make my intentions clear and do my best to keep her informed. Once I've stated my interest in a girl, I don't want to make her have to guess about where I think things are headed. And to be perfectly honest, if I've made it past the step of telling her how I feel and asking her if she's interested, I'm thinking long-term. But, I'm sure other ISTJ guys would do things entirely differently, so please don't interpret this as a guide to the ISTJ type.

Conversations: Hmm...really, I'm comfortable talking about basically anything (as long as it's appropriate). I enjoy sports, authors from Dostoevsky to Twain to C.S. Lewis, politics, news stories, philosophy, jokes, funny stories, people, hobbies, deals, technologies, etc. Actually, I've heard that ISTJs aren't supposed to enjoy abstract or theoretical conversations since that's supposedly an N trait, but I actually find those types of conversations to be interesting as well. If you ask me what book I'd want if I was stranded on a desert island, I'll give you an answer (I stole this from G.K. Chesterton, but FYI, it's Boat-Building for Dummies).

Really, I think I enjoy talking about the same things as other guys--and although I'm generally most comfortable talking about more impersonal things, I don't mind diving into a personal topic as long as it's with someone with whom I feel comfortable. I'm not going to bare my soul before a casual friend lol. I'm not sure exactly what I'd dislike talking about (obviously not the latest fashion trends, but that's because I'm a guy, not because I'm ISTJ), but I think it really depends on how much I know the person to whom I'm speaking. I can talk to my inner circle about basically anything--to people outside of that inner circle, I prefer impersonal topics, or else I can sometimes approach personal topics from an impersonal perspective (I fully recognize how pathetic this makes me sound, but it's true).

Again, this is my personal perspective, and I don't mean this to be ISTJ-specific, but maybe you'll find it interesting/helpful and perhaps some other ISTJs out there will chime in. Haha and with the novels I keep writing on here, I'm pretty sure my internet personality type isn't ISTJ...

Joe

 

[CSM]

How is a person supposed to follow a post like that?

I mean holy crap @joe_the_buckeye, sometimes I wonder how exactly you get into my head, and also how you are able to say what's in my head so darn well.

Great post(s) and great thread.

 

[datMBTIguy]

My goodness, Mr. ISTJ, you seem very sweet and sensitive. I have to open my mind a LOT. Most of the ISTJs with whom I have interacted have been (esp. the females) bossy, domineering, close-minded, hyper-conservative, uncreative, RigidRigidRigid, and extremely judgmental. Lots of cold anger when people approach life differently. We ENFPs, who are a lot like Tigger from Winnie the Pooh, generally are not well-received.

But...you sound very different. Nice to meet you!

My ENFP girlfriend says I'm one of the sweetest & most understanding people she's ever met and that I get her like no one ever has. She refers to her past relationships as "relationships" and has described me as being "like a different species entirely from other guys."

I just tell her I'll keep being nice as long as she promises not to tell anyone the truth We don't always see eye to eye but we learn a ton from each other - she has gotten better at saying "no" to people who try to take advantage of her sweet and unassuming people-pleasing nature and I've gotten better at saying "yes" to more new experiences and the invitations of others. Her enthusiasm and optimism are cute to me and my slightly cynical "realist" view is grounding and useful to her (albeit sometimes a bit sobering which sucks because I never want to squash her enthusiasm!). Her perceptiveness means I can spend day after day with her and never feel overwhelmed or intruded on (before she left to study abroad we spent the better part of 30 consecutive days together which neither of us had even attempted before because a) most people annoy us and b) we're 20).

To be fair in regards to your description of ISTJs you know: we're also not particularly prototypical "types" and it'd be almost impossible for relative strangers to guess our type. As far as I understand I come off to most people as ENTP/ENTJ and she comes off to most people as ESFJ/ESFP. Also, I don't believe I've ever interacted with female ISTJs. The point to make here is that ISTJs *ARE* bossy, close-minded, conservative, rigid, judgmental etc - *IF* they're unhealthy and haven't developed their skills. Further, I tend to attract/be attracted to ENFPs as people. Many of my good friends are ENFP. I like being around them because I feel at my best when I don't feel like I'm being judged and when the people around me open me up to trying something I might not choose if left to my own devices.

I don't even know how I got to this point, sorry for rambling. I couldn't stop once I got going! Point is I hope this adds to exposing you to the reality of a healthy ISTJ interacting with a heal​thy ENFP. It might not always be the most natural pairing and there's some work required to stay on the same page, but it's more than worth it. I'm at my absolute best with my lady around and she says she feels the same about me. It's dynamic, adventurous, intimate and cerebral and I love just about every minute of it.

 

[snowbell]

What a beautiful, insightful, well-written, and helpful post... Thank you so much for this...

 

[Ballast]

The first person I had a serious relationship with was an ISTJ and it was...well. I'm never sure if the problem was that we were too similar or too different. But those feelings stick with you after your first relationship termination and so I find myself wanting to undersand how we were both approaching things from a type perspective. Especially because, what can I say, this is a pretty attractive type. What's not to like?

It is confusing and I fully admit the double standard. Largely though, the scenario of pseudo-initiation (I'm going to start using that word in real life now lol) I was proposing was meant as a solution to impatience with my slowness in initiating by myself. The best-case scenario for me would be to be around a girl in whom I'm interested in a group context (at least semi-incidentally) for an extended period of time--giving me the opportunity to get to know her and have the chance to observe the way she responds to me. Ideally then, I'll have a chance to test the waters (mild flirtation/conversation/etc.) and gauge the girl's interest. Quite likely, I'll use the same pseudo-initiation process I described (or something similar) with the girl and see how that works. If the girl responds well (general observations might include: smiles when I make eye contact, makes an effort to talk to me, responds quickly to my texts, makes conversation when I initiate contact via text, is interested in group activities that I'm involved in, etc.), I'll take action and tell her that I'd like to get to know her better and ask her if that's something she'd be interested in and comfortable with (in which case I'll then ask her father for permission, if possible and appropriate).

The person I was with didn't quite go as far as asking my father (that might have seemed confusing and strange to my dad and I both) but he had a bit of that...I don't know, sort of traditional view of approaching romance and courtship. As a person accustomed to the emotional expression and life attitude of ISTPs, I found my ISTJ's expression of romance uncomfortable. I guess looking back it was gentlemanly or sweet but I found it unnerving. He was, of course, the type to settle right back into his comfortable routine where romance isn't much of a regular part (like me) but at the beginning I didn't know what to do with his written expression of affection towards me. I get nervous around traditional courtship manuevers. I can't help but see courtship and chivalry as disingenuous even if I myself am very long term minded when I decide to pursue a relationship. I think I see any temporary romantic action which is meant to be a means to an end as the middleman, and let's cut out the middleman and just get to the point: this is what we can expect from each other.

Also, just for the record, if I try something like this and she declines, I will be very unlikely to try again, unless she makes an effort to demonstrate that her feelings have changed. I base my decisions of past experience, so if past experience indicates likely failure, I'm probably not going to try again unless something happens that clearly indicates a changed perspective (think: she proposes to me...) :laughing: That's overstating it, but you get the point.

Same, I am very cautious about putting myself where I am not wanted.

Semi-relevant side note: Playing hard-to-get is counter-productive if you're trying to get me interested in you. I might find it attractive and mysterious, but I will probably interpret it as exactly what it appears to be (disinterest) and move on. I'm not generally drawn to girls who aren't interested in me (platonically or romantically), and I take things at face-value, so just something to keep in mind. I tend to translate hard-to-get to not-worth-trying-for.

Absolutely same.

:laughing: As far as definition is concerned, I do like things to be very clear. But if I feel like it's time to define a relationship, I'll bring up the topic. Prior to the time I tell the girl of my interest in getting to know her better, I'm not anxious to define anything, however. I'd rather let things take their course and when I feel sure of my own decision, and at least fairly confident of the girl's response, take the step of informing her of my interest and seeing how she feels.

After that has taken place, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with the girl asking me where I felt things were going, but I'd feel terrible that I hadn't been clear enough and hadn't brought up the topic first. I firmly believe it's my responsibility, once a relationship has begun, to be explicitly clear as far as my own feelings. And you know how ISTJs are about responsibilities... :laughing:

If I've taken that step of asking the girl for permission to get to know her better, then from then on, I feel it's my responsibility to make sure she understands how I think things are going. I might be hard to read, because I'm not always open about my emotions, but I would absolutely try to make my intentions clear and do my best to keep her informed. Once I've stated my interest in a girl, I don't want to make her have to guess about where I think things are headed. And to be perfectly honest, if I've made it past the step of telling her how I feel and asking her if she's interested, I'm thinking long-term. But, I'm sure other ISTJ guys would do things entirely differently, so please don't interpret this as a guide to the ISTJ type.

That's good. And as I'm serious and long term minded, too, I do need to know that is what my partner of interest is thinking too. Why waste time on someone who isn't on the same page as me?

Conversations: Hmm...really, I'm comfortable talking about basically anything (as long as it's appropriate). I enjoy sports, authors from Dostoevsky to Twain to C.S. Lewis, politics, news stories, philosophy, jokes, funny stories, people, hobbies, deals, technologies, etc. Actually, I've heard that ISTJs aren't supposed to enjoy abstract or theoretical conversations since that's supposedly an N trait, but I actually find those types of conversations to be interesting as well. If you ask me what book I'd want if I was stranded on a desert island, I'll give you an answer (I stole this from G.K. Chesterton, but FYI, it's Boat-Building for Dummies).

Really, I think I enjoy talking about the same things as other guys--and although I'm generally most comfortable talking about more impersonal things, I don't mind diving into a personal topic as long as it's with someone with whom I feel comfortable. I'm not going to bare my soul before a casual friend lol. I'm not sure exactly what I'd dislike talking about (obviously not the latest fashion trends, but that's because I'm a guy, not because I'm ISTJ), but I think it really depends on how much I know the person to whom I'm speaking. I can talk to my inner circle about basically anything--to people outside of that inner circle, I prefer impersonal topics, or else I can sometimes approach personal topics from an impersonal perspective (I fully recognize how pathetic this makes me sound, but it's true).

Again, this is my personal perspective, and I don't mean this to be ISTJ-specific, but maybe you'll find it interesting/helpful and perhaps some other ISTJs out there will chime in. Haha and with the novels I keep writing on here, I'm pretty sure my internet personality type isn't ISTJ...

Sounds about right...I can't do small talk for very long but I do love to get into good conversations about any of my topics of interest. I'd guess a good sign for me would be having those really great conversations that are stimulating and interesting. I burn out so easily with human interaction otherwise.

*******

I think my prior ISTJ and I both had that distance in warming up to others and letting them in, but we did it in different ways. Once I was ready to see this relationship as something I wanted to do, I was in it to win it. He was genuinely interested but perhaps overwhelmed with my intensity once I felt like it was going to be a real thing, whereas I was overwhelmed with his intensity in the beginning. But both of us were slow to trust and slow to communicate what we needed and it just...yeah, it crumbled a bit.

But he was a good person with the same values about life and relationships, and that kind of thing is hard to ignore.

 

[joe_the_buckeye]

@CSM Great minds… :laughing:
@Ballast

From what I’ve read, I identify quite a bit with the ISTJ guy you’ve described. I emphasize tradition (probably to a much greater degree), can be awkward when it comes to displays of affection, and can be distant at times. I just laughed and nodded when I read “he had a bit of that…I don’t know, sort of a traditional view of romance and courtship.” Yep, that’s me. :laughing:

I’m not sure if this helps, but I think I’d agree with you that courtship routines and actions are a sort of game or middleman as you call it. Here’s what I’d say though—for me, those sorts of actions are important for three reasons:

1. They send the message that I feel differently about this girl than I do about other girls. It’s hard for me to put that sort of thing into words sometimes and I generally prefer tangible displays of affection because they feel more substantive to me. Also, I feel that all men should behave chivalrously to women (remember, I’m a hardcore traditionalist), so in order to make the differentiation between an ordinary woman whom I have no feelings for and the one that I am pursuing, I will generally do even more for the one I’m in a relationship with (which could come lead to things coming across as excessive or over-the-top). Yes, these sorts of things can come off awkwardly, but if that happens, I generally turn it into a sort of running joke to avoid making things uncomfortable. But while I might turn it into a joke in order to make things less awkward, it’s still very important to me.

2. I feel like the direct approach, while logical in that it does get right to the point, just doesn’t feel right. I guess this falls back on how much I value tradition and past observation. Something about a direct approach that cuts out this sort of thing just seems incredibly unromantic. Even ISTJs like me value romance, and for me, chivalrous behavior is a type of romance. In fact, I might say it’s the only type of romance that comes naturally to me. So, it may have been a little bit unnerving (and uncomfortable, for him and you both, since it doesn’t seem like it worked especially well for either of you), I’d probably give him the benefit of the doubt here and call it his way of romancing you. Awkward, yes (sometimes incredibly so), but that’s how I am sometimes. The good thing is that while I’m often awkward, I’m generally equally authentic. Outward displays of affection don’t come easily, but when they do come, you can count on the fact that I mean exactly what I’m doing. Good with the bad, I guess.

3. In my own life, I’ve witnessed many healthy relationships where the man acts chivalrously towards the woman, not in order to manipulate the woman into thinking he’s something he’s not, but as fundamental part of the relationship that continues long past marriage. The point isn’t to play the game until I catch the woman; it’s to set a standard early on in the relationship that this is how much the woman means to me and to offer visible and tangible demonstration that I’m making it a high priority to support, protect, serve, and honor her (I fully recognize how obsolete this sort of notion sounds, but it’s also something I feel strongly about). So while I can absolutely see how you’d interpret chivalry as a sort of disingenuous game (and maybe it was, I don’t know the guy), I wouldn’t instantly label it as such. That sort of thing is important to me and I certainly don’t consider it a game—or rather, it might be a game in a way, but I don’t consider it a temporary game that stops once I’ve managed to capture the heart of a woman I’m pursuing. It’s a lifetime game that demonstrates the mindset and perspective I have toward the relationship (hopefully that makes sense even if it sounds extremely old-fashioned).

The distance. Yep, this is a huge problem for me in terms of connecting with other introverts on a deeper level. I’m slow to trust and communicate too (probably even slower). That’s really one of my biggest weaknesses and one of the reasons I’m attracted to ExFxs. I find that they bring me out of my shell a little bit more than other IxTxs. I’m a big fan of relationships where both sides have something to contribute to the mutual benefit. To my knowledge, I’ve never met an INTJ girl, so I’m not certain, but part of me thinks we’d be too similar to make a really great team. I find that expressing my feelings, making people feel valued, and getting past the impersonal stage of a relationship are some of my greatest weaknesses. Because I recognize those weaknesses of my own, those are some of the qualities I’m looking for in a partner (besides corresponding values), because I’m looking for a balanced relationship. I’m less concerned about finding a girl who’s a capable, objective rationalist because that’s who I am. I guess I tend to think that the strongest relationships are often found when both sides are able to contribute and receive something to each other. That’s not to say this can’t happen in a same-type or similar-type relationship of course, I just tend to think that it’s more likely in a relationship between two fairly different types.

I also think it’s a lot harder to get past communication problems when they’re an issue for both sides. That’s not to say it can’t be done, or that things won’t work out great if both sides can get past their own barriers, but just to recognize that it’s easier to break through one wall than it is to break through two. But if both sides are committed and patient in regards to breaking through those walls, ISTJ-INTJ can work out great. My dad (INTJ) and my mom (ISTJ) have been happily married for 40+ years, so I’m not one to doubt if there are common values and priorities. They’ve had a remarkable stable and happy relationship, that’s for certain.

And they sure ran a tight ship. :laughing:

 

[Ballast]

See, this is the first time I've really gotten to sit down and actually talk about values. Usually, what ends up happening is that both parties have their own values but can't articulate, even to themselves, what those values are. And so there ends up being a lot of cross talk when someone challenges or questions our values because we are not even able to explain those values to ourselves, let alone another. For us tertiary-Fi folk, it can be a struggle to get to the bottom of why both of us see things in a different way.

So thank you for your elaboration about your values regarding romance and chivalry. I see where you're coming from and I also see where I'm coming from better.

I’m not sure if this helps, but I think I’d agree with you that courtship routines and actions are a sort of game or middleman as you call it. Here’s what I’d say though—for me, those sorts of actions are important for three reasons:

1. They send the message that I feel differently about this girl than I do about other girls. It’s hard for me to put that sort of thing into words sometimes and I generally prefer tangible displays of affection because they feel more substantive to me. Also, I feel that all men should behave chivalrously to women (remember, I’m a hardcore traditionalist), so in order to make the differentiation between an ordinary woman whom I have no feelings for and the one that I am pursuing, I will generally do even more for the one I’m in a relationship with (which could come lead to things coming across as excessive or over-the-top). Yes, these sorts of things can come off awkwardly, but if that happens, I generally turn it into a sort of running joke to avoid making things uncomfortable. But while I might turn it into a joke in order to make things less awkward, it’s still very important to me.

2. I feel like the direct approach, while logical in that it does get right to the point, just doesn’t feel right. I guess this falls back on how much I value tradition and past observation. Something about a direct approach that cuts out this sort of thing just seems incredibly unromantic. Even ISTJs like me value romance, and for me, chivalrous behavior is a type of romance. In fact, I might say it’s the only type of romance that comes naturally to me. So, it may have been a little bit unnerving (and uncomfortable, for him and you both, since it doesn’t seem like it worked especially well for either of you), I’d probably give him the benefit of the doubt here and call it his way of romancing you. Awkward, yes (sometimes incredibly so), but that’s how I am sometimes. The good thing is that while I’m often awkward, I’m generally equally authentic. Outward displays of affection don’t come easily, but when they do come, you can count on the fact that I mean exactly what I’m doing. Good with the bad, I guess.

3. In my own life, I’ve witnessed many healthy relationships where the man acts chivalrously towards the woman, not in order to manipulate the woman into thinking he’s something he’s not, but as fundamental part of the relationship that continues long past marriage. The point isn’t to play the game until I catch the woman; it’s to set a standard early on in the relationship that this is how much the woman means to me and to offer visible and tangible demonstration that I’m making it a high priority to support, protect, serve, and honor her (I fully recognize how obsolete this sort of notion sounds, but it’s also something I feel strongly about). So while I can absolutely see how you’d interpret chivalry as a sort of disingenuous game (and maybe it was, I don’t know the guy), I wouldn’t instantly label it as such. That sort of thing is important to me and I certainly don’t consider it a game—or rather, it might be a game in a way, but I don’t consider it a temporary game that stops once I’ve managed to capture the heart of a woman I’m pursuing. It’s a lifetime game that demonstrates the mindset and perspective I have toward the relationship (hopefully that makes sense even if it sounds extremely old-fashioned).

It's silly, but I think I might have something of an antagonistic view towards love, romance, and relationships and see displays of romantic affection as being disingenuous because I see love as disingenuous. I see love as a game everyone plays to get what they want. Usually it's a whole long list of things the person wants his/her partner to do for them, not the other way around. "Romance" is simply a way to get what you want, and then once you have it you can drop the act and go back to resenting each other. Geeze, I wonder where I picked that idea up from?

So I appreciate your earnestness. I'm earnest too regarding relationships and I think it was one of the things my ISTJ cited as a general reason to be attracted to me. I don't do romance very well at all, and I definitely don't do tradition (I don't identify as either gender so that makes having to fit into the traditional "woman" role uncomfortable). I have no idea how I'm "supposed" to act around other people. As in Keirsey's view, I'm utilitarian to the core. But I'm serious and committed and dedicated and dependable; I don't turn my back on a commitment I've made and I take my values on relationships seriously. In fact, I guess I'd say my cynicism exists because I don't trust others to do the same.

The distance. Yep, this is a huge problem for me in terms of connecting with other introverts on a deeper level. I’m slow to trust and communicate too (probably even slower). That’s really one of my biggest weaknesses and one of the reasons I’m attracted to ExFxs. I find that they bring me out of my shell a little bit more than other IxTxs. I’m a big fan of relationships where both sides have something to contribute to the mutual benefit. To my knowledge, I’ve never met an INTJ girl, so I’m not certain, but part of me thinks we’d be too similar to make a really great team. I find that expressing my feelings, making people feel valued, and getting past the impersonal stage of a relationship are some of my greatest weaknesses. Because I recognize those weaknesses of my own, those are some of the qualities I’m looking for in a partner (besides corresponding values), because I’m looking for a balanced relationship. I’m less concerned about finding a girl who’s a capable, objective rationalist because that’s who I am. I guess I tend to think that the strongest relationships are often found when both sides are able to contribute and receive something to each other. That’s not to say this can’t happen in a same-type or similar-type relationship of course, I just tend to think that it’s more likely in a relationship between two fairly different types.

I also think it’s a lot harder to get past communication problems when they’re an issue for both sides. That’s not to say it can’t be done, or that things won’t work out great if both sides can get past their own barriers, but just to recognize that it’s easier to break through one wall than it is to break through two. But if both sides are committed and patient in regards to breaking through those walls, ISTJ-INTJ can work out great. My dad (INTJ) and my mom (ISTJ) have been happily married for 40+ years, so I’m not one to doubt if there are common values and priorities. They’ve had a remarkable stable and happy relationship, that’s for certain.

And they sure ran a tight ship. :laughing:

Yeah, I see what you mean about the pitfalls ITs are bound to run into with each other. It does help to have someone who is geared towards seeing the inner self of another to work through those blockages. The best thing I can do is try to work through my own issues, because last time they came out in force I had no idea how to deal with them. And neither did he, because neither of us had a language to describe it.

Damn it if IxTJs weren't the most attractive to me. I really don't do well with the energetic bubbliness of EFs, though I love my EF friends (in small doses ).

But ISTJs and INTJs, in my experience, have a kind of sensitive core that is difficult to navigate. Call it that tertiary Fi, or, if you're not a cognitive functions fan, perhaps it's the seriousness of being an ITJ. In any case, I notice it with us but not so much with ISTPs or other NTs. It's true that we look for external, objective fact (whether fact includes sensory data and detail or intuitive analysis and theoretical leaps) to anchor us into reality and that this tends to make us a little more steady, a little more objective, a little more consistent and stable. But then you get into that inner center, the values and things we have, and it is easy to step on without even knowing it. My ISTJ and I both hurt each other without realizing and I'm not sure we were ever really able to talk through it or even understand why, but years later I'm starting to get a sense of the problem. I have a really hard time predicting or understanding others' behavior, despite being an intuitive and despite having profound psychological insights into what might be motivating someone in a situation I'm aware of. So he would act in certain ways (like shutting down, withdrawing) and I would take that behavior at face value: he's not interested, he has a lack of emotion. I can see now, both knowing more about MBTI and myself, how wrong I was but I was so bad at predicting people's unspoken feelings and values when they weren't being communicated directly to me. I can tell when someone is sulking or miffed or short, of course, but we're talking on a deeper level. And for my part, was I ever able to directly tell someone how I was feeling, or even what I was feeling? Nope. It's taken a lot of self-analysis to break this apart and realize where I was coming up short in my understanding.

So, know thyself. That's rule number one in a successful relationship.

 

[joe_the_buckeye]

See, this is the first time I've really gotten to sit down and actually talk about values. Usually, what ends up happening is that both parties have their own values but can't articulate, even to themselves, what those values are. And so there ends up being a lot of cross talk when someone challenges or questions our values because we are not even able to explain those values to ourselves, let alone another. For us tertiary-Fi folk, it can be a struggle to get to the bottom of why both of us see things in a different way.

I actually think I might be a little bit different here. I generally have a pretty good idea regarding my values and reasons that support my holding those values. And really, I generally can effectively explain my rationale to others in a logical, impersonal way. I'm not sure if these are ISTJ traits, but when it comes to issues I'm knowledgeable about, I'm generally comparatively well-informed and possess an opinion and a rationale for it that I'm very capable of expressing to others. My problem is when the issue becomes personal (actually, for either side) because that's when I generally feel most passionate about my values and uncomfortable with violating the other person's standards. I know ISTJs are known for being absolutely blunt and willing to state the painful truth regardless of circumstances, but I'm not really at all like that. If someone asks me for my opinion and I deduce based on my past observation of that person that my opinion is likely to be offensive, I generally throw a few weak (but honest) compliments in as well and soften my perspective as much as possible. So I can't say I generally experience much cross talk, but I'm a 3w2 ISTJ (Yes, we exist), so I'm guessing much of that is attributable to my people pleasing tendencies.

I see love as a game everyone plays to get what they want. Usually it's a whole long list of things the person wants his/her partner to do for them, not the other way around. "Romance" is simply a way to get what you want, and then once you have it you can drop the act and go back to resenting each other. Geeze, I wonder where I picked that idea up from?

As in Keirsey's view, I'm utilitarian to the core.

Well, it can be. You're right, countless people use romance as a means of manipulating the other person to satisfy his/her emotional needs. But that's just the result of unhealthy people using relationships as a means to an end--not at all representative of what romance should be. Romance should be the natural desire to please the other that comes with being in love...but it should also be an active commitment that I hold the other person in the relationship to be my highest priority even when I don't feel particularly affectionate towards him/her. I think sometimes the modern perspective is to look at romance as a game, but it's not--it's physical evidence of a deeper commitment to love and serve the other. I get extremely frustrated when I hear about married couples who've chosen to separate due to "falling out of love." Most of the time that happens, it's because one (or both) confused love with infatuation and once that first honeymoon phase wore off, quit romancing the other because it didn't come naturally anymore. But that's the inevitable ebb and flow of human relationships--we're not robots who have a set emotional level. That's why I say romance is a commitment, and I'd probably argue a necessary (but not onerous) one for a long-lasting healthy relationship. People fall in and out of love all the time, romance is what keeps bringing them back. My priority in my own marriage then (if that is something I'm privileged to one day experience) is to keep pursuing my wife long past the wedding day--even when I don't feel like she's worth the effort to catch. And I think that's what committed, active romance is all about. I guess the reason I wanted to explain all that was to point out that even from a utilitarian perspective, romance is not only important, but useful. If love's an epoxy that holds two people together, romance is the activator...and one that needs to be repetitively applied.

I don't turn my back on a commitment I've made and I take my values on relationships seriously. In fact, I guess I'd say my cynicism exists because I don't trust others to do the same.

Same. Commitment is probably my greatest strength, and my greatest vulnerability. If I commit to someone/something, I'm extremely dependable in regards to coming through. And perhaps largely because I commit so wholeheartedly, nothing hurts more than to know that I've committed to someone who isn't willing to reciprocate. So, I don't generally trust others to do the same either unless they've demonstrated their dependability. I think this is probably an area both of us could grow in. It's not bad that we're dependable and responsible, but I know my lack of trust for other people often keeps me from developing effective and healthy friendships. I'm kind of an all or nothing type of guy in that regard--you're my close friend, or you're never getting past my social facade. I think this sort of black and white perspective often costs me a lot of positive experiences, and it's something I'm trying to work on. The reality is however, that commitment means everything to me. In a way, I think I'm somewhat like a the Black Gate from Lord of the Rings--you're not getting into Mordor unless I choose to allow you. Furthermore, letting anyone inside is a long and difficult task (it takes like five friggin cave trolls :laughing. But once that gate's opened, I don't have much left in the way of defenses. So, I'm generally very careful who I let inside. Then again, we're talking about Mordor here, so I'm not really sure why I need the gate. I mean, who the heck wants to get into Mordor? :tongue:

But ISTJs and INTJs, in my experience, have a kind of sensitive core that is difficult to navigate

You're not kidding. I think it's because we both tend to be fairly calm and put-together (at least externally), which many people interpret as unfeeling, when in reality, we have as soft of a center as anyone. I can be hurt just as badly as anyone, I just hide it extremely well and not too many people can read me when I bury those sorts of things. It's hard to navigate when you can't see where you're going. And although I think generally I do a fairly good job of dealing with my feelings, it helps that I have some very close relationships with people who know me well enough to know when I'm looking for emotional support and when I'm perfectly fine without it. It seems like a lot of people think I get affected by the most minor issues on one side, and think that I'm unaffected by the major ones. It doesn't bother me that my professor called me out and criticized the perspective I presented in my paper in front of the class (actually, I engaged him and felt like things went fairly well considering)--it did bother me when my ex-girlfriend whom I was very much in love with decided she only wanted to be friends. But I'm not showing anyone beyond a few close relationships, anything. And to be perfectly honest, I won't take the initiative and ask for help even if I need it, so generally it involves someone taking the time to ask if I'm okay. It's really difficult though, because even if I'm not, I'll say that I am, and because I tell people to take me at face value, they often do and leave me alone, even when I really could use the emotional support. On the opposite side, I get annoyed when people keep asking me if I'm okay, when absolutely nothing is wrong.

It's terrible, I know, but I tend to expect people to just know, (which is beyond hypocritical--if anyone has a right to complain, it's not me). So, that's something I'm working on. Sometimes I just have to open up more.

So, know thyself. That's rule number one in a successful relationship.

Absolutely agreed. And the second is like it: know thy partner as thyself. Upon these two rules lie much of relationship success. :happy:

 

[Ballast]

I'm kind of an all or nothing type of guy in that regard--you're my close friend, or you're never getting past my social facade. I think this sort of black and white perspective often costs me a lot of positive experiences, and it's something I'm trying to work on.

I say that all the time--that is exactly like me! And I do recognize it as something of a flaw, even though the connections I've made have been great ones. But sometimes I get nervous about my all-or-nothing attitude and hang back out of fear it'll be thrown back into my face or something.

The reality is however, that commitment means everything to me. In a way, I think I'm somewhat like a the Black Gate from Lord of the Rings--you're not getting into Mordor unless I choose to allow you. Furthermore, letting anyone inside is a long and difficult task (it takes like five friggin cave trolls :laughing. But once that gate's opened, I don't have much left in the way of defenses. So, I'm generally very careful who I let inside. Then again, we're talking about Mordor here, so I'm not really sure why I need the gate. I mean, who the heck wants to get into Mordor? :tongue:

Hahaha!

My ISTJ said to me one day, early in our relationship, your heart is like a fortress. I had no idea what he meant or why he brought it up, but years later...yeah, I finally see what he meant.

I don't like being in love and I don't like being vulnerable. But...I suppose not liking something doesn't make it go away. I've had to work really hard to stop repressing my emotions on the basis that I don't think I should feel them for one reason or another.

It's really difficult though, because even if I'm not, I'll say that I am, and because I tell people to take me at face value, they often do and leave me alone, even when I really could use the emotional support. On the opposite side, I get annoyed when people keep asking me if I'm okay, when absolutely nothing is wrong.

It's terrible, I know, but I tend to expect people to just know, (which is beyond hypocritical--if anyone has a right to complain, it's not me). So, that's something I'm working on. Sometimes I just have to open up more.

I will say that this is something I've gotten to be pretty consistent at. Usually I'll talk if I want to talk and won't if I don't want to, and almost always I will want to process my raw emotions alone and then come to others to work through the resulting thoughts if I feel like I need to. I do hate being pestered during this process.

 

[lollicat]

This may be one of my favorite threads on PerC yet I'm biased and love you ISTJs, though. @joe_the_buckeye you really encapsulated the core of an ISTJ in a relationship here, and it makes me feel that much more certain of my love for mine. INFJs are also wholeheartedly committed once we arduously get ourselves to that point, and I see a trustworthy match in your type. Thanks for so clearly explaining how you love, and how to love you. ISTJ/ISFJs = hidden gems

 

[joe_the_buckeye]

Hidden gems, huh? The irony hearing that from an INFJ... :tongue:

I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread--even if it stems from some personal bias... :wink:

I actually have an INFJ older brother and we get on very well. I've never really gotten to know any INFJ girls (seems like the only girls I ever talk to are ExFxs), but I like my brother's authenticity, responsibility, intellect, and especially his tact and emotional intelligence. He's got a natural ability to attract people even when he doesn't talk much and certainly doesn't feel the need to change who he is in public. I like that about him. I could definitely see myself with a girl with those sorts of traits.

Oh, and if we ISTJs are hidden gems--you INFJs are buried treasures...

 

[lollicat]

Hidden gems, huh? The irony hearing that from an INFJ... :tongue:

I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread--even if it stems from some personal bias... :wink:

I actually have an INFJ older brother and we get on very well. I've never really gotten to know any INFJ girls (seems like the only girls I ever talk to are ExFxs), but I like my brother's authenticity, responsibility, intellect, and especially his tact and emotional intelligence. He's got a natural ability to attract people even when he doesn't talk much and certainly doesn't feel the need to change who he is in public. I like that about him. I could definitely see myself with a girl with those sorts of traits.

Oh, and if we ISTJs are hidden gems--you INFJs are buried treasures...

It's true - i do have a personal bias but the thread itself was a very well-written, enjoyable read - contains a lot of invaluable information. Your wisdom and maturity shine through in your posts - and I don't doubt that you will find a worthy mate soon

Yes, we INFJ gals may be a little slow to open up in comparison to our ExFx counterparts, which is why it may be harder for ISTJ men to get to know us. BUT you'll probably also find that we may also be slower to "lose interest" as well...i don't find anything "boring" in the ISTJ man...those trademark traits of trustworthiness, dependability and responsibility (with the random bouts of quirkiness) are HOT. roud:

 

[joe_the_buckeye]

It's true - i do have a personal bias but the thread itself was a very well-written, enjoyable read - contains a lot of invaluable information. Your wisdom and maturity shine through in your posts - and I don't doubt that you will find a worthy mate soon

Yes, we INFJ gals may be a little slow to open up in comparison to our ExFx counterparts, which is why it may be harder for ISTJ men to get to know us. BUT you'll probably also find that we may also be slower to "lose interest" as well...i don't find anything "boring" in the ISTJ man...those trademark traits of trustworthiness, dependability and responsibility (with the random bouts of quirkiness) are HOT. roud:

Well, "HOT" is definitely a stretch...:laughing:

What the heck have I been doing all my life? INFJs find that attractive? So long ExFxs...INFJs, here I come! :wink:

Actually, to be honest, I'm pretty much convinced I could never hold the interest of a hardened extrovert for an extended time. I tried really, really, really hard to keep an ESFP who I fell head-over-heels for, and she still got bored with me....it took like 2 months lol.

So to girls of all types: I'm pretty boring. If you're looking for fun, drama, extreme romance and general excitement, please keep looking. I'm the wrong guy, and you're going to end up hurting both of us. But if you're looking for a guy who will treat you respectfully, your parents and friends will like, and who will come through for you every time you ask him (and you really are going to have to ask/tell me--otherwise I won't have a clue)--I'm your man.

But you have to catch me first...

 

[joe_the_buckeye]

An addendum to the thread that deals with some of the more problematic aspects of my personality—again with the disclaimer that this is meant from a personal, rather than type perspective.

Dear non-ISTJ,

I know it’s been pretty rough recently. I can see it. I’m not good with expressing my feelings, but I can tell you’re not acting the same way. I haven’t gotten to asking you yet, but my guess is you’re in a spot kind of like, “things were fantastic for a while; I loved his competence, demeanor, and strong character---he seemed like pretty much an all-around amazing guy.” But reality has started to set in…and with reality always comes disillusionment. You’re starting to see my less likeable aspects—I’m being critical, judgmental, rigid, unexpressive, unappreciative, and boring. I know. I have some good traits, but I have some bad ones too. But, I think it might help if I explain why I have problems with these certain traits and maybe it will help you understand.

I know I’m pretty critical, judgmental, and rigid sometimes. Yeah, I hear you…maybe all the time. And I know it’s frustrating to you that every time you suggest some creative idea, I instantly point out all of its flaws. I’m a little bit like the wet blanket of guys. There’s no one more capable of keeping you warm, but sometimes I screw up and end up putting out the fire instead. But if you want to know why I’m so critical and rigid—here’s why. I generally know how things should be done—and I want people to do things the right way—the efficient way. And I get really frustrated listening to people talk—when all I want is for them to do. I know I should be more open, but I guess I’m a little bit reactionary in my distaste for idle talk. I’m so eager to avoid pointless conversation that if at all possible, I try to skip it altogether. If I know a way to do something—I do it that way—I don’t really bother to look for other ways unless I see something particularly problematic or inefficient about my method. And I tend to expect others to do the same. I know it’s frustrating getting shot down all the time. But I really don’t mean anything personal by it—I’m just in a hurry to get things done and I see constant theorizing and little action as laziness. And I really can’t stand that.

I know I’m not a very expressive person. I know I’m not a very spontaneous person. And if there’s one thing I hate above all else—it’s being put on the spot. I also don’t tend to get excited very easily. I was the kid who slept like a rock on Christmas Eve (well, when the sugar high from all the cookies wore off). I know it gets frustrating when you tell me about something you find to be really exciting and I don’t really respond with much enthusiasm. But this really isn’t because I hate your idea—it’s because I’m busy planning it out. I’m kind of like the UPS of guys—I’m all about logistics. So when you tell me about something exciting, I don’t respond with excitement—I start planning and thinking about all the things that this future event will impact. And I do this calmly, strategically, thoughtfully. This doesn’t mean that I don’t get excited about things (I do)—it just takes me a while to get there. Some people have emotions that are akin to a lightning-fast elevator—I’m more like an old-fashioned set of stairs. Have you ever tried taking the stairs up the Empire State Building? I bet not. You seriously have no idea how much work is involved. But the thing to remember is even if it takes me a while to get there, I still do…eventually. I can still get emotionally involved—I just don’t throw myself into something instantly, completely. I wish I could. But please don’t let get discouraged because I’m not instantly exuberant about something—just give me some time to process it. I’ll get there for you eventually—and once I do, I’ll be the best partner-in-crime you could wish for. Plus, I’ll have a very detailed action plan… :wink:

You think I’m unappreciative, I know. I probably am. It seems like some people have a knack for making others feel valued—I don’t. I think you’d be surprised about why this is. I tend to think of duty-fulfilling as something that should be assumed—not something I should be thanked for. If I do something I committed to doing, I don’t really expect to be thanked or appreciated. I just did my job. Actually, I find it annoying when people do thank me for these kinds of things. I pride myself in my dependability, and when people thank me for doing exactly what I said I would do, I sometimes get the feeling that they’re surprised that I came through for them. I guess I feel like at first, they doubted me. I know this makes no sense at all to you, but I often feel most appreciated when people presume upon me. I like the sound of “Joe’s got that” an awful lot more than “Thanks for getting that done in time, Joe.” When you say “Joe’s got that,” I hear “Joe is someone I can count on to get the job done well.” When you say “Thanks for getting that done in time, Joe,” I hear something more like “Thanks for coming through for me, I wasn’t sure I could count on you.” I can actually enjoy being taken for granted, because it shows implicit confidence in my dependability—something I’m very proud of. Now here’s the thing: sometimes I show my appreciation and respect the same way I receive it. I do it by presuming. And I know how absolutely brutal this sounds to you. It probably doesn’t even make sense. Most everyone considers presumption is the antithesis of appreciation, not a manifestation of gratitude. And since I know that you value affirmation, I’m working on verbalizing my appreciation—it just doesn’t come particularly naturally to me—especially when it’s about something that I consider a responsibility. Actually, the people I tend to thank explicitly are the people I trusted less to come through for me. As rough as this sounds, if I’m taking you for granted, you’re probably one of the people I appreciate most in the world. :happy:

I know how stubborn I can be sometimes. But as much as it doesn’t seem like I’m willing to change—I actually am. You’re my girl—and once I pick a girl—I’m all in. And since I truly care about you, I’ll do virtually anything for you if you ask me. But, if you do want me to change, you’re going to need to be very direct and logical about why it’s important. Explain the problem explicitly, calmly, and gently. Then tell me exactly what I can do better, and the rationale for why it’s important to you. You’ll want to keep in mind that I’ll probably be very upset when I find out I’ve failed you, so it’s going to be very difficult for me to hear about it. So pair the explanation of the problem-desired solution-rationale for change (in that order) procedure with some nice, sincere compliments about how solid of a man I am or how much you can trust me (those are the types of compliments that I appreciate most). Start off the issue with something you appreciate about me, list your issue, and then finish the discussion with something that reaffirms me.

For example, if you’re disappointed that I don’t seem to appreciate you, tell me. But don’t just tell me that you feel unappreciated—tell me how I can help make you feel more appreciated and why it’s important to you. If the latter and former seem obvious to you, don’t assume that they are to me. Something like this would probably be very effective: “Dear, I know you love me, but sometimes I’d like for you to [whatever you’d like me to do differently]. Sometimes in [this specific situation], I would really love if you could [desired response], because [why it’s important to you].” Then let me respond (and try not to be offended that I’m probably going to ask questions, not offer immediate sympathy). Most likely I’ll say something like “I had no idea that [what I was doing] was making you feel [however you tell me you’re feeling]. I’m so sorry, dear, I will do my best to make sure that I do [whatever you told me you’d like me to do] better in the future.” Then, one of the best things you can say to end the conversation (and coincidentally, also will help you out in terms of me actually changing) would be to say something like, “I’m so glad we had this discussion. I love how well you listen to me and that I can trust you to come through for me.” I’ll probably think about those sorts of compliments for days and spend hours thinking about how I can ‘come through’ for you. That’s who I am in a nutshell—I come through for people. And to hear a girl/woman tell me how much she trusts me to do something for her…well…let’s just say this, I do have a heart, and even if it seems frozen solid—even solid ice melts sometimes. :wink:

And I know it’s frustrating having to explain everything to me. I wish I could understand everything instantly. I know how much easier that’d be. But although I can’t promise you the ability to understand your every need—I can promise you that I’ll move heaven and earth to come through for you. You can’t count on me to understand…but you can count on me to be there.

Yep, I’m booooooring. I’m really sorry. On second thought, give me a break. Seems like women these days want everything—exciting, handsome, emotionally-connected, sensitive, masculine, funny, loving, dependable, intelligent, athletic, etc. But if that’s what you’re looking for, best of luck to you (you’re going to need it) in your search. And keep looking. If you’re okay with me being boring and a bit of a homebody, then great. It shouldn’t really be that big of an issue. Just go find some female friends to give your life a little bit of fun and excitement.

And do it on a weekend afternoon, I’d rather watch football anyway.

Sincerely,

--An ISTJ Guy

 

[nuue]

This thread has a lot of points that sound like my istj boyfriend.. which is nice... because i adore him. roud:
(i ventured into istj territory to better understand him anyway to better make him happy.)

His "boringness" and patience is so endearing.
It makes me comfortable.

He's not boring at all really (hence the quotations)... excitement is like wandering around the bookstore (he's like a little kid in a candy shop (or Disneyland) in bookstores!) and I get to observe him, and follow him around. I find it exciting... maybe I'm weird... maybe it's an infj thing. Or like he'll drag me with him to go watch an antique firetruck parade (cause that's his quirky interest (I have my own fair share of quirky interests myself)) or visit a car museum... random little 'hermit' places too with very little people around. He hates parties (even if i tell him i'll share the corner space and the cheese & cracker tray with him). We walk around the park sometimes (lately because it's been cold we wander around Target... his shopping list is always interesting). His excitements are little things in life he finds fascinating and interesting. I also quite appreciate his ability to "stop and smell the roses" and I don't mind that he'll sit next to the rose bushes for a few hours to ponder stuff or do his own things. It just means I'll know where to find him.

My istj, despite being slower than a dead snail, wants nothing more than to go at his comfortable thought-out pace with our relationship. Which is absolutely fine (considering he's my first boyfriend (and hopefully if everything turns out dandy in a couple years time... my only)). He's not pressuring me, I'm not pressuring him. I'd rather go his pace than anything. Less anxiety on my part, less anxiety for him. He's quite traditional and old fashioned, a sweetheart and a gentleman. He bluntly told me in text he's asking me to be his girlfriend the next time I saw him (that was.... in July... after dating him since January) and a week later he did. He communicates quite well in written word but is quite reserved with words in person. He's more touchy than wordy. He gives the greatest hugs though. I'm more outwardly cold than him really... side-by-side comparison, he's more of the teddybear.

He can be a real goofball in many ways, but that's why I love him.

So um.. that was my little rant / swooning / whatever it's called. Yeah.
... this thread was nice to stumble upon.

ISTJ's are wonderful individuals.

 

[lollicat]

@joe_the_buckeye and @nuue, love the posts! They really encapsulate little nuances that make ISTJs so special. Especially the part about the awesome hugs! hehe

On a semi-related note, do you ISTJs feel that you get misunderstood by other types sometimes ?
I have to be honest - when I first met my boyfriend, I didn't really "get" him in the sense that I couldn't get a handle on his intentions at first. He was so literal and took things at face value and I'm not used to that. I am guilty of trying to read more into what he was saying at first..although now I know better, and I love that he means what he says. Also, sometimes I'm afraid he can come across as almost rude or inconsiderate at times, when in reality he is just oblivious. I've found that a lot of people when first meeting my boyfriend get a less than favorable impression because he's not completely outgoing or friendly- more reserved at first and slow to open up. As a result, people tend to place judgments on him that IMO are unfair.

For example, after my best friend met him for the first time, she said he seemed "disinterested" or "distracted" when in reality he's just quiet but still engaged, in his own way. It probably has something to do with the lack of eye contact thing when he's not quite comfortable. She's an ESTP who appreciates directness and likes outgoing people. She said herself she finds it difficult to relate to certain introverts. My ISTJ, OTOH, had nothing but great things to say to me about my friend and her hubby and had no idea she was less than impressed with him.

It makes me sad for him sometimes - that he's so misunderstood (especially by more extroverted/aggressive people, it seems)- but at the end of the day I know what a sincere and goodhearted individual he is, so that's all that really matters to me. Just wondering if that's related to type or if it's just him. Either way, I consider myself lucky to have found such a lovely, genuine guy who has all these endearingly adorable quirks and who loves me so purely ...*sigh*

- another swooning NF

 

[joe_the_buckeye]

@joe_the_buckeye and @nuue, love the posts! They really encapsulate little nuances that make ISTJs so special. Especially the part about the awesome hugs! hehe

On a semi-related note, do you ISTJs feel that you get misunderstood by other types sometimes ?
I have to be honest - when I first met my boyfriend, I didn't really "get" him in the sense that I couldn't get a handle on his intentions at first. He was so literal and took things at face value and I'm not used to that. I am guilty of trying to read more into what he was saying at first..although now I know better, and I love that he means what he says. Also, sometimes I'm afraid he can come across as almost rude or inconsiderate at times, when in reality he is just oblivious. I've found that a lot of people when first meeting my boyfriend get a less than favorable impression because he's not completely outgoing or friendly- more reserved at first and slow to open up. As a result, people tend to place judgments on him that IMO are unfair.

For example, after my best friend met him for the first time, she said he seemed "disinterested" or "distracted" when in reality he's just quiet but still engaged, in his own way. It probably has something to do with the lack of eye contact thing when he's not quite comfortable. She's an ESTP who appreciates directness and likes outgoing people. She said herself she finds it difficult to relate to certain introverts. My ISTJ, OTOH, had nothing but great things to say to me about my friend and her hubby and had no idea she was less than impressed with him.

It makes me sad for him sometimes - that he's so misunderstood (especially by more extroverted/aggressive people, it seems)- but at the end of the day I know what a sincere and goodhearted individual he is, so that's all that really matters to me. Just wondering if that's related to type or if it's just him. Either way, I consider myself lucky to have found such a lovely, genuine guy who has all these endearingly adorable quirks and who loves me so purely ...*sigh*

- another swooning NF

Do I feel misunderstood? It really depends. I think most people I'm close to understand me pretty well, and that's really what I care about. I know that was actually one of the things my first girlfriend liked most--she liked that it made her feel special to know that she "got" me in a way that very few people did. To be perfectly honest, I don't need everyone to understand me, nor do I really want everyone to understand me. Sometimes I think my obliviousness makes me a little bit underarmed in social situations, so maybe my way of compensating for that is being hard to read, I don't really know. I do know that once I open up enough to people for them to truly understand the whole/real me, that's when they've become important to me and can hurt me. I think that's the root of why I don't tend to open up all the way to people. And if you don't open up all the way, it's hard to expect people to understand you.

Besides, if everyone could read me like a book the first time they met me they'd get bored, let's face it. And if everyone gets bored with me right away, how am I supposed to find my swooning NF? :wink: