It seems to me like you are in a very bad position ... and you may not be in a healthy relationship with your ex right now

-had school and work troubles
-had drinking troubles
-family troubles
-possibly sleeping with another women, who he seems to have little to no respect for, for comfort
-got out of a 2.5 year relationship because of distance
-----2nd girlfriend and only woman he "loved" and had sex with
-----Claims to still have feelings for you
-----Possibly jealous of Guy C
-was constantly sleeping
-Possible thinks of himself as a bad person

All this to me seems like he may very well be depressed. Depression is a very selfish emotion/state of being that causes someone to focus on their own pain and self hatred while ignoring what they are doing to others (or thinking they can not stop). So, right now, I would say that he is being very selfish and maybe unable to really care about you because his depression is too over-consuming ... Personally, I try not to blame depressed people for being depressed because I don't really know anyone who wants to be depressed ... and I have a hard time imagining people that do.
As for this girl, he has no respect for her and she still does not mind sleeping with him?!?!?! ... I think she needs a little more self respect and he is in no position to be in a relationship like that (he is just running away from his problems by sleeping with her, I think) and they should probably stop sleeping with each other before one of them, or both of them, get(s) hurt. I don't think either of them might be in a state where they should be having casual sex or even be in a relationship (he definitely should not be ... and you did not give much information on her, but I'm assuming she was aware that he does not respect her ... if she is not aware, then I take back her not being mentally healthy enough for a relationship).

He may need to see a professional (I don't know) and I think he needs to realized that only he can make himself happy. ... He may also need to fight his own negativity to see beauty in himself.

http://personalitycafe.com/infp-forum-idealists/106624-what-happiness.html#post2703314
http://personalitycafe.com/infp-for...-idealists/102833-how-do-infps-judge-physical-attractiveness-5.html#post2598624

When I try to talk to him about how I feel about it and such, he always end up either: a. talking about how horrible of a person he is, how flawed his character is, etc. (I end up thinking to myself "if you "realize" this about yourself, why not change yourself for the better so you don't end up thinking this way anymore?")

When someone says those things I think they are a) trying to manipulate the situation through pity and guilt (trying to make you feel guilty for putting pressure on him and thus making him feel worst OR b) they genuinely feel that way and they are depressed and they don't actually believe they and/or their situation can change (... there is a hopelessness in depression sometimes ... maybe all the time)
Since I think he is depressed and since he does it when you bring it up, I'm thinking it is a combination of a and b. For a, he may want you to stop telling him that what he is doing is wrong and to be on his side AND he might be fishing for you to tell him that he is not that bad (or even tell him that he is a good person) ... and I think he is depressed, so he may think he needs the approval of others to have some worth.

I can't help but think he is trying to use me for emotional support and love, and her for sex (which quite frankly is exactly what he's doing, whether he wants to full-heartedly admit it or not). It feels like he wants the best of both worlds, which is pissing me off to be quite frank and is really hurting my feelings.

He might be, but I'm not sure he wants it ... He is getting the best of both worlds from a situation that he does not want to be in ... but I think sleeping with her means that he is running away from his problems ... and because he does not seem to want you to date anyone, he does not seem to be over you ... He is being very selfish and he is not being fair to you, or even considering your feelings, I think. *hugs*

Guy B also raped me once, which really ended up scarring me (long story on this one) in ways I don't quite realize.

I have a very close friend who was raped in a relationship (it was her husband at the time). I was NOT a victim of this innocent, but even I was hurt by it. I had associated the word "rape" with those particular incidents that I never even witnessed and I thought about it everyday (I still think about it from time to time) ... and all I can say it I can't even imagine what it is like to be the victim of a rape .... but you want to know something interesting ... my friend now knows that her can't hurt her anymore and thinks that she is even stronger now than she was before ... I think it was because she fought her pain in order to feel happy and she kept having hope ... so keeping having hope that one day, you will be able to not hurt as much (or be affected by the pain as much without numbing yourself ... I mean being happy dispite the pain ... stronger) *hugs* ... an, maybe even, be able to overcome the pain and lets those scars heal *hugs*

Guy C and I have been getting to know one another on an intellectual and emotional level, we get along really well, etc. We both see a lot of wonderful things about one another and we could consider dating each other (but he lives in another state, just my luck! XD ).

Good Luck ^__^

 

Many words of wisdom and kindness

Why thank you for your kind words of wisdom, Mr. Meepers!

She seems aware enough he does not respect her, although he won't admit this fact directly (nor will she acknowledge this in a direct fashion). Strangely enough, I actually had a discussion with her (when I popped into town to his surprise) about how irresponsible he was acting and how she shouldn't have done things with him when he was clearly vulnerable, as he apparently talked to her a lot about being sad and stuff before they did anything. Not to mention he is 21 (and she being 18 [everyone thinks she's 14 though XD] and not very mature for that manner!) and had unprotected sex with her each time!!!!! I ended up telling them both how stupid and irresponsible that was. I know, I know, I sound like a parent or something but at the same time I felt like no one else was going to be able to reach to both of them in a way that helps them see the big picture of things. Know that I had some VERY angry feelings towards her before I went to his hometown, which I tend to think is natural, although for me this type of reaction was a first XD rest assured, I rationalized with myself before I even got there.

Some background information on her: An interesting twist to all this is that she was raped as a young child by her mom's boyfriend at the time who still to this day does not believe the incident happened. So her and I have some similarities as far as some of our past troubles go, yet we're also pretty different because of our personalities. I wonder if he is looking for something in her that he saw in me, yet at the same time someone who is different from me as far as personality goes? Like may be someone who's like me but isn't like me (minus the relationship part) if that makes sense...? I'm thinking perhaps she is ISFJ. She is more of an introvert as she spends a lot of time alone when they're not hanging out, is on the shy side, she makes decisions based on her feelings or other's feelings (and is not a rational thinker in the least), uses past experience to determine her course of action often, doesn't question things very much or at all, is very complacent, doesn't like change, is into traditional beliefs, etc.

I do agree with you that neither of them should be in this type of relationship. Sure she may be aware of the "sex with no strings attached" deal but she consistently has talked about how she wants a relationship or has brought up the idea with him before, which he has made it clear each time it's not something he wants. She is also apparently known for being extremely clingy, needy, timid (and submissive to the max), emotional, and is apparently rather simple-minded from what I've heard from him, his best friend who knows her, and from the conversations I have had with her (yes I actually talk to her sometimes, as it is him I am angry at, not her [anymore lol]). I will admit my opinions on that have some biases, as I do feel hurt from them seeing one another especially with how soon things started, despite both of them being fully aware of my hurt feelings. At the same time, both of them are having different expectations (as well as hopes and desires) of what they want from things between them and it's a very unhealthy relationship.

As far as the depression goes, it certainly does fit the bill as to part of what he's experiencing for sure. He still sleeps a lot during the day although doesn't slack off at work or anything anymore. He never slept as much during the day as he does now, except for the past few months. His parents are typically very controlling, although when he truly needs them they seem to "turn the other cheek", such as with his constant drinking (his dad actually was "socially drinking" with him and just assumed he was drinking more just because).

Me and his best friend actually confronted his parents about everything he was doing while he was at school the day I arrived (and before my ex knew I was in town). I know, tell me we taddled or narked all day long but him and I did this purely because we were so concerned about him and did not want him going down the path to Loserville essentially. We also realized that in order for him to get back on the right track, his parents would need to be made aware of his behaviors and the suicidal thoughts he was having (his best friend opened up about this not me), why he was doing these things, etc. His parents at first tried to say he was bullshitting about that stuff to get me to run back to him, although I said to them while it may be possible he is somewhat exaggerating what he's been up to so he gets my attention, I wouldn't assume he is making all of this up and that he really needs help whether it's all made up or not. (and of course, what I said made complete sense. What a shock!) Of course, it somewhat surprises me how oblivious his parents were to everything he was doing with how controlling and overly hands on they tend to be although it's not entirely shocking since kids can be very good at hiding things from their parents which is nothing new lol.

We confronted his parents because we both realized that in order for him to get back on the right track, his parents would need to have a closer eye on him and to help him and what he was doing was extremely self-destructive. No I don't tell his parents every little thing and this was the only time I actually opened up to his parents about things he never wanted them to know ha ha.

I am trying to see the big picture of things plus all the details (or possibilities), so I can understand things better. I sometimes wish he'd just stop saying those things to me and may be thinking of me in that sense although I can't expect someone to stop loving another as that's ridiculous. I also don't want him to feel like he has to keep secrets from me just to make me feel better (which is one thing that's been hurting me in the first place!). Ideally, they would stop seeing each other sexually at least for a while so both can evaluate themselves and their situations in a more honest, healthy fashion without their unhealthy relationship clouding their judgment.

Whew I know this is a lot of reading to do but I am trying to make sense of things as I said and am hoping for some wisdom from others, especially you NFs ^_^ and I do hope that things turn out well with Guy C, whether things lead to something more or if we just remain friends

 

I am not sure you are going to like my insight on this...but, here goes:

I can fully appreciate your issue with him moving on so fast. However, I have been in his shoes and done similar. Moving states away is a pretty clear ending to a relationship and that would be hard to cope with. The fact he was ignoring his best friend and drinking a lot says that he was trying to bury or dismiss his feelings for you in any way possible and guys often look to meaningless sex for that. If he was fair and upfront with her about it, I don't know I'd hold t against him. You're judging his actions for how hurt he was once he lost someone very important to him...you. That changes people...look at shadow functions. I know very little except they are the opposite of our normal personalities and tend to come out when we are emotionally unhealthy. If losing the woman you've loved for 2 1/2 yrs isn't a cause to be emotionally unhealthy, what is?

I think it's also a little unfair to judge him for growing feelings for this person. Feelings do change, for both better and worse, as time goes on. It's entirely possible he locked off his heart because of you and it was merely a physical thing but, now that time has passed and it seems you two are over, especially since you've expressed an interest in someone else both intellectually and emotionally, he's opening his heart up again.

I kind of get the impression you want the best of both worlds as well....live apart, be single, meet new people but, also expect him to ignore feelings and refrain from a relationship with others. The sex thing is probably hard enough but knowing it's becoming more than that, well, you're having a tough time.

How can you tell him about this person your interested in and not expect him to allow himself to feel the same for someone else? Do you still say nice things to him like when you were together? How is that different from what he's doing?

Personally, I think dating someone in another state is not your best move...it could just bring more turmoil like this your way. But, what's best for you is for you to know and decide. I would not cut off friendship with him if you've maintained friendship all this time...unless you can't move on doing so. I also wouldn't hold it against him he had secrets. Telling your best friend things you can't tell your gf because of fear of embarrassment or rejection is common. Keeping things related to a new relationship from your ex, who you're still friends with, is also common and many would say respectful as, what ex wants to know the gory details?

My question. Were you hoping you and him might get back together? Were you hoping you'd both decide it was worth the long distance relationship if it meant staying with each other?

I just wrote what came to mind and didn't proof read because this was honestly how I felt about it. I went through something similar...and, I did similar to him. Though, it was 2 months for me. Still, we had been in contact in between and I didn't tell her until she asked some time later. I never lied to her..I just didn't offer the truth immediately.

Im sorry you're going through this...this was a very neutral reply from me, in my eyes and I wasn't really trying to say what you wanted to hear.but, more what I thought would give you the most insight. I hope you understand as, I like you. You're good people and if you ever want to talk, I am here.

 

A really great post, even if it isn't what you thought I wanted to hear ^_^

Well hey, it might not be exactly what anyone would want to hear (myself included in this case ha ha), although what I do want is honest opinions which is exactly what I got (and thank you very much for that) :happy: If I did not want different perspectives (whether they agree with my own or not), I would not have created this thread in the first place. I do see that I have been somewhat unfair to him in some ways and that I may have been placing some of the same unfair expectations onto him he has (or hasn't) placed onto me. This goes without saying I've had my fair share of unfair treatment towards him that he has not reciprocated, as I will admit I've been emotionally distant and even cold. Since I have been acting distant and cold towards him, I should expect the possibility of him going to her for more emotional support whether I like it or not lol. I am naturally somewhat on the distant side and am not the warmest person by nature, which is a bit of a challenge in relationships for me anyways already (and this has upset him while we were still together).

As far as the long distance relationship goes... I will admit that both this guy and I have reservations about the long distance thing, as we both know how complicated long distance relationships are anyways! That and we're both aware that I still have feelings for my ex, which is yet another reason among the several in place as to why we're not in a rush for anything :happy:
About a month and a half or so ago, I would've been more inclined to say yes to your question in regards to the long distance relationship idea with my ex, although today I don't really know if I could do such with him. It sounds strange saying that given the circumstances I mentioned with Guy C earlier I will admit, yet there's also been a good share of hurt feelings. If his mind were to change about that for whatever reason I will admit it'd take a REALLY long, good talk before I would truly consider the idea :laughing:

As I said earlier but in different words, it seems that he might be thinking of her in a more than fwb light in response to my getting to know Guy C rather than genuinely liking her as a person. He once said (about a week or so ago actually) he could not date her or someone like her because a. he doesn't know if he'd be able to fully trust her (he says she is more on the "easy" side if you catch my drift...); and b. he admitted that she is not that "interesting" to talk to, as she is not a philosophical person at all and doesn't like deep conversations (or even movies with a deeper meaning to their plot).

He is naturally pretty hesitant to enter relationships for the most part, and it took a while for him to even start considering the idea of me being a potential girlfriend before we started dating. The first girl he dated (which lasted for only 2 months) ended up cheating on him via kissing another guy. She got sick with mono for an entire month and he waited until she got better to break up with her. He was ever since pretty careful about dating women.

At least to me it would seem unnatural for him to even consider seeing her in that light if that makes sense, especially since he questions how loyal she would be due to her nature (or if she'd get "bored" of him like she apparently tends to do from what he's said [and how she's apparently been acting towards him]). But who knows, may be he kept some things to himself to avoid hurting my feelings or something. That or he may really feel this way but is possibly seeing things in a way that aren't there or how he wants them to be to fit his wants and needs (we're intuitives, we tend to do that sometimes :laughing perhaps as a coping mechanism of some sort???? He also admitted once a couple weeks ago or so that he would rather have it so I would sleep with another person like he has (to "deal with" his having been with someone else) but not "emotionally move on" or "fall in love with someone else" essentially.

I do want him to be happy, I really do. I'm certainly not happy with how things started (and are continuing) between them as I said before. I will be the first to admit that my feelings and thoughts are more biased than I like, yet at the same time things between the 2 of them is going to possibly hurt one of them or even both. I do however think it could also be a good experience for him (whether it turns out negatively or more positively), seeing as how it'd be a chance for him to experience more in respect to relationships and sex and such. I tend to think that if he waited at least a month or so to consider doing anything with others, I would not feel as strongly about this as I do now, although I would still feel some hurt.

It is pretty difficult slipping in all the details into a single post without turning it into a novel (or heck in a whole forum without it being several pages ha ha). I am entirely open to differing opinions and your post really did help me take a second look at how my actions and behaviors could be unfair, let alone how they could be affecting him (but just isn't telling me in his words ha ha). Your post did not offend me in the least bit so no worries there :happy:I really do appreciate you stopping by to give your opinion. There's no way I can reject insights that are bound to help me reach a greater understanding of things!

 

So your ex is depressed and he is with this woman who is only 18 ... Lets call her Woman A

- She was probably in high or fresh out of HS when they first met
- There is a big difference between a 21 year old and an 18 year old
- she has feeling for him
- she wants to have a relationship beyond sex with him
- she knows that he does not really respect her
- she is clingy and needy
- She has had a bad past (that she might be trying to still runaway from ... idk)
- She seems to be setting herself up to get hurt

I am not sure she is mature enough to realize that she should not be fwb with someone that she wants to be in a more emotional relationship with, but does not respect her ... her personality would also make it hard for her to leave him I think

I am also not so sure that she is as dumb as everyone perceives .... She is shy, submissive, emotional, timid (so far sounds like an ex I had XD), so it may be hard for he to share her thoughts with others ... she could be scared of other's judgement on her ................... She is also needy and clingy, but knows how your ex feels about her - while liking him (and possibly placing a high value in his opinions) .... that may make it hard for her to open up to him is she fears rejection making her appear even more "dumb" as she may hold back on displaying her true intelligence ... Plus, she is 18 and he is 21, there should be some gap from intellectual growth (there is a big difference between high school and college and a lot of academic and intellectual growth can take place in college)


If you and your ex are not going to be in a relationship together, then I think you both need to move on ... this does not mean that you can not be friends, but you should not try to act like a couple either and you both need to let each other date other people.
As far as your ex is concerned, he needs to be able to look for happiness in himself, I think ... I also think he should be with a woman who he wants to be with for more than just sex ... If he actually has feelings for this woman he is with, then great, that will help him heal. ... I would not be mad at him (he is depressed)

As for you and Guy C ... well it doesn't seem like we know much about him, so, I can't really say much

 

I agree with everything except the maturity difference between 18 and 21. Not that it's not sometimes true...but it isn't always. Homelife, work history, hardships...etc all play a major role in maturity. A 21 yr old still living at home with parents who's never worked a day is likely to be less mature than an 18 yr old eager to move out, working to put themselves through college, etc....

ON the intelligence of this girl..entirely possible she is also very guarded with her feelings/thoughts for anything deep due to what happened to her as a child.

 

This is extreme over analyzing. Bottom line: you moved away and he didn't move with you. Both of you didn't love each other as much as you thought; not enough to get married. It's over. Cut off contact.

 

cad: a man who behaves in a dishonorable way toward women

I got lost somewhere so I may have this terribly mixed up, and if I do, please forgive me and consider this an attempt to help you.

Here's what I get: Guy C is a cad. He tells excruciating details about his dating situation, and doesn't want to change anything about how you "love each other," while using another girl, who is, "...a little on the easy side and not too bright?" Is that right? But he wouldn't want to date her? And you are thinking he has special feelings for you that he is expressing in a strange way? He may think you are the greatest and really appreciate being able to tell you the sordid details of his life with no strings attached. Look what you put up with! He can tell you anything, things that no gentleman should be telling anyone, and you are still a good friend who asks for nothing in return except that he be happy? There is no confusion when someone is decent and totally into you. Not big confusion like this. Why would you want to date someone who is already using someone else for sex? Is that the kind of guy you want to be with? Would you ever be able to trust him if the two of you are together?

Re: the ex who drinks, who had sex with another girl immediately after you broke up. Save yourself from the role of rescuer. PLEASE. Break off contact until you do not need to be involved. You are clearly attached and possibly trying to control him from afar, and maybe that goes both ways. You can care about him without being involved in his life. He should have other friends for guidance and if he doesn't, pulling away might help him to find them, to be a healthier person. If he (not sure which guy) is sleeping all day as an escape, it may be because of depression, but sleeping may just be an escape, period. Escape from responsibility. Those, "I'm such a bad person," responses are manipulative, designed to make you (and I'm betting anyone else) feel bad for holding him accountable or asking him live more responsibly.

My opinion is that you should not date the ex, B or C. Focus on your own life and give yourself time to heal from the past and to deal with the hurt you are feeling today. Be alone for awhile or with friends you are not attracted to, free of all this drama and unrequited longings. Until you can choose someone who is loving and kind and doesn't take you for granted. Sounds like guy C is keeping the door ajar just a bit because he might be done with the other girl soon and knows you are deeply attracted.

This may be hard to read and I don't mean to hurt your feelings. You sound incredibly altruistic and concerned for all involved, but that may be self-deception. I'm not saying you are a bad person or anything like that, but you are attracted emotionally and physically, so, "wanting to help" may be your way of rationalizing staying connected, and also as a way of not dealing with or admitting the extreme hurt you're probably feeling over this.

I highly recommend the book, He's Not That Into You.

And if I do have all this completely messed up, I'm sorry. It really bothers me to see a young woman so confused and not being treated with respect.

 

@lilsnowy and @kdr85, thank you both for your responses. I will say that things have drastically changed for the better. I finally cut ties with my ex a few months ago (turns out to have been one of the best choices I've made in years). I am still friends with Guy C although we are no longer romantically interested in one another (and we both have moved on to other people much more suited for ourselves!). :happy: