NF/ NT "Death Spiral" - All NFs & NTs encouraged to comment!

pinkrasputin · May 25, 2012

Okay my situation (INTJ/ENFP)

NT pursues NF
NF is talking to like 12 other people/doesn't care
NT keeps coming back every so often, now NF is intrigued. The NT's dryness is sort of cute/puzzling to NF
NT/NF date
NT/NF have sex
NT/NF fall in love
NF starts seeing some things wrong in NT (he doesn't offer to pick her up when her car was in shop & there was that one time he got mad at her when she was late)
NF forgets NT's Birthday so NF breaks up with NT (Do I really need to explain this odd logic? Shame break up. lol)
NT thinks it's over and slams the door
NF wishes the NT understand that she is just fickle :sad:

How do you rectify this spiral? Start having a few relationships with STs, you'll be screaming for another NT in no time. And this time you'll fucking appreciate it. The Spiral will start looking like a joyful skip down the yellow brick road in comparison.

LadyIrime · May 25, 2012

This sounds like a relationship between 2 immature parties.

Not once in this "death cycle" did I see: “and they talk about it”. I think that if both the NT and the NF both honestly told each other how they feel, what they react that way, and what they can each do to make it better, then the relationship will be fine.

Personally, it takes years, tears, and many angry & painful moments for me to reach the end of stage 2 with another person (even another NT); I imagine that if I ever made it past stage 2 (assuming the smolders of attraction don't fizzle & die) our relationship would be pretty solid.

My issues arise when one tries stage 2, then I withdraw. Eventually the talking comes, but the withdrawing -- it's like a reflex.

saibot · May 25, 2012

I have not had this happen yet. I am pretty good at telling how emotionally needy a person is, so I can adapt my expectations quite well.

That being said, all the NTs (and STs) I have strong bonds with are friends, not lovers. I could see this happen if I was pursuing an NT romantically, but I think I would be able to keep it from going totally out of control.

CodeGuru · May 25, 2012

saibot said:
That being said, all the NTs (and STs) I have strong bonds with are friends

I'd like to emphasize this. I find myself in with very few, but very close friends. Once they're up on that pedestal they have my respect for their emotions- something I usually dismiss very easily. The key to solving problems between the types, I think, is communication. There is no such thing as being too frank. (Ex: Your attitude sucks, I feel lonely because ---) Our emotions won't get hurt if it's a problem that needs to be fixed with us. A lack of communication can tell us we're not even a person of worth. A beating-around-the-bush sort of deal can get nowhere, fast.

KateMarie999 · May 25, 2012

I see this being a possibility but I think 2 mature people would talk about their feelings or their thoughts before it got to be that bad. I'm in a relationship with an ENTP and we're always telling each other how we feel or what we think and how we came to our conclusions. I'm really starting to understand how his mind works and I think (I hope) he's understanding how mine does. He actually found that Wiki article a few days ago and we discussed it.

Personally, I think communication is key. If you don't talk about what you think or how you feel, you're going to confuse the other person. I think the NT/NF problem is that they're so similar they start thinking the other person can read their mind. They can't. If an NT and an NF have the same worldview, similar interests, and healthy communication, I think they can avoid the death spiral without too much trouble.

Alysaria · May 26, 2012

I decided a long time ago that I'd rather be alone than pretend to be something I'm not for the sake of a relationship. If he wanted me to change, he's not worth the trouble....and if he would love me for who I am, then why should I act differently around him? I'll still adapt in terms of being supportive and a bit conciliating as long as it's not an important issue.

I believe strongly in letting potential mates have all the information before taking the step to date me. >.> I consider it a mid-step between friendship and active commitment, so there's a chance to back out.

But then I don't really get interested in guys unless I've been friends with them for a couple of years...so there isn't an awkward first date where I'm dropping bombs on some poor unsuspecting guy I barely know.

Anyway, the spiral doesn't happen this way for me because I'm open on my end... What's happened to me is my INTJ ex pretended to be some romance novel archetype to appeal to me with all of these noble characteristics that he didn't actually possess. I became disillusioned as he slipped off the pedestal, tried to fix things, and then withdrew....only to be dragged back by emotional manipulation in a months-long guilt trip that was miserable and pretty much killed every feeling of affection I still had for him.

Laguna · May 27, 2012

I agree with the posters that maturity level is a huge factor here.

Also--- the "spiral" could surely be a common thing that happens- but I think it's over-dramatized with this white-paper- or whatever you want to call the death spiral write-up that circulates.

I think it could happen in subtle ways but not necessarily have to mean the death of the relationship. (Perhaps it can in some cases- but again- I think it would be more due to lack of communication / immaturity.)

RoSoDude · May 27, 2012

Though my relationship with an ENFP certainly began in the way that others have described (quite immediate mutual attraction and interest), I don't feel as if we have had the larger communication and personal issues that others have described. Though there clearly is a difference in how emotion affects us, I think we're both very aware of it and we aren't offended when the other doesn't act as we would. I am simply a less emotional person. She doesn't try to be different for me, nor do I try to be different for her (I just try to be the best version of me), and it works out fine. We just both have to be very conscious about it.

Moby · May 28, 2012

I'd agree with Naughy, but I'd take it one very bold step further: that at times, in certain situations the NF/NT dynamic mimics the emotional distress of abuse. I've had a lot of trouble with my NT friends and their biting comments which sometimes come off as insensitive (Ok, more than sometimes).

I feel I give so much, and they do at times, but it's the lack of a social filter, the correcting of my ENFP randomness (as if I should be expected to become a more rational character) when I do not expect the same (for an NT to become more emotional, for example). What I touched on there is probably the biggest sticking point of my personal experience with my many NT acquaintances and friends: They seem to harbor some innate quest to get me to be more logical, even if their incessant pleas have fallen on deaf ears for years. Where myself, unlike my personal NT friends, I am very comfortable to "live and let live" not try to convert them to "emotionality(?)" But to simply enjoy the natural chemistry and shared interests that forged that initial friendship.

Oh how I wish they could read what I just wrote.

nreynolds1990 · May 28, 2012

NaughyChimp said:
I've also had the following:
1. NF likes NT and overflows with affection.
2. NT conveys that being so cuddly/verbally effusive/emotional is somehow "less than" acting rational, cool & collected, slightly detached
3. NF, in a desire to make object of attention happy, puts a lid on the Feeling-type behaviour and language, behaves in a more logical, almost-business-like manner
4. NT approves and finds self more & more at ease with this new, less-cozy iteration of the NF. Begins to warm up and think this person might have serious long-term romantic potential.
5. NF discovers that in the struggle to not express tender, sweet emotions, those tender, sweet emotions have died of asphyxiation. There is no love left... just a sort of numbness.
6. NF leaves, off to find someone who will enjoy being the object of goofy adoration, warm hugs and mediocre poetry.
7. NT, having finally opened heart, is crushed and wonders what could have possibly gone wrong. Shakes fist at sky and promises to never love again.

This makes no sense to me. I mean I wouldn't want someone going full blown "I LOVE YOU SO MUCH!!!" and this is the first day I've met them. But I wouldn't want them to censor themselves either, if they make their intentions known I think I would be receptive to their antics if I liked them too. I just think if you can't accept someone for who they really are then you shouldn't be with them to begin with

iemanja · May 28, 2012

It exists! It happened to me and an INTJ. It only happened because we were both nubs with relationships and didn't have a good friendship to back it up. This led to a severe lack in communication. With good communication, the NT and NF pairing could work fine.

Elizindrhythm · May 28, 2012

NaughyChimp said:
I've seen this NT/NF "Death Spiral" mentioned on numerous boards here at PerC. I thought it would be useful to have a thread dedicated to discussing it.

For those of you not familiar with this dynamic (I took this quotation from the website NT/NF Death Spiral - AdamWiki), here is the description:
The NT/NF Death Spiral

The general sequence of events is this:
Stage 1: NT meets NF. NF is enamoured of NT, falls head over heels. NT is characteristically cautious, but interested. NFs are fun, after all.
Stage 2: NF appreciates and admires many characteristics of the NT and thus begins to behave more like an NT, perhaps even fooling the NT into thinking s/he is an NT. NT then relaxes, figuring s/he's with a kindred spirit, gets more comfortable with the relationship, starts acting like normal NT self, expecting to be understood.
Stage 3: NF feels NT cooling off and wonders what s/he is doing wrong. Tries to be more like NT to compensate. This doesn't feel right. NF gets needy and/or begins to consider is her/his duty to draw the NT out of her/his shell, encouraging the NT to express all those feelings buried deep inside. NT doesn't get it.
Stage 4: NT feels pressure from NFs emotional demands, needs distance to figure things out. (This might be only INTs. I'm not sure.) NF panics, becomes more needy. NT withdraws more...NF needs more...and so on and so on.
Stage 5: NF suddenly realizes that the reason things aren't working is that the NT is cold and unfeeling or not nurturing or some other horrible thing. Abandons NT without looking back. (This is especially likely with the NFPs.) NT is confused and (sometimes) relieved.

Do you believe this phenomenon exists? Have you ever experienced it? What do you believe that both parties could do to avoid it... or is it an inevitable dynamic between NFs & NTs? I'm curious to hear from any NTs or NFs.

Welcome to my Freakin' former marriage. Except NT left NF.

I don't think that this is in any way true for all NT/NF connections. It depends on all sorts of factors: how secure each one is, is either one or both willing to a) communicate and/or b) accommodate, their ability to be empathetic, etc.

Then again, I don't have my worst problems with NTs, more with SJs. I have the worst time communicating with SJs because I always ask questions that they don't have a clue how to answer, and I give answers that do not contain the information they need. Therefore, I have to really work at bending my brain to tailor my communications if I want to work well with this person. It's like Brain-yoga! :wink:

Antichrist · May 28, 2012

Lack of communication + lack of mutual reciprocity. Sounds like a typical problem for many relationships that is only resolved with maturity and a drive to understand one another.

pmj85 · May 28, 2012

I'm NF.

I work with an NT.

We hate the living shit out of each other for the most part, but there's a definite respect for each other intellectually.

/end.

Laguna · May 28, 2012

The relationships that I have seen fail in a really bad way- and sadly- I have from the sidelines seen a few in my circle

.... it's usually the yes .... lack of communication / suckish communication. Also, the lack of empathy for the other individual and getting into the he said / she said .... I'm-gonna-show-you!!!! Then it is a battle of who can punish the other one or who can get the "upper hand." (Where does having the "upper hand" ever really get you?????? Sexless for 1, lonely for 2 ... etc.)

Once you are playing these types of games --- you no longer are empathizing with your partner. If your partner is not empathizing with you ... doesn't make sense to jump on their negative bandwagon and refuse to do the same for them. Either they will come around or they won't- in which case, you have a decision to make.

Just like when you have kids- in a real, grown-up relationship, you need to "give a little bit." And don't sweat the small stuff which all of it damn well is!

Big huge nasty fighting is a choice. Unless both are partaking in this craziness, it won't happen. (I did some of this in my first real relationship- just a youngster really. I didn't know what I was doing. I learned and I will never do that again.)

I think some of us build such a protective shield around ourselves and if our significant other gets under that once in awhile- it's like WWIII, why??? Let it go.

I have a neighbor from church married 50 years. She said she is happy. She said they never go to bed angry. 50 years? I think I'm gonna take her advice.

If a relationship truly needs to end- has run it's course, amicable is always possible. If both parties are mature and can part amicably, that's how it should be.

Easier said than done from the idealist ENFP- but - you cannot control another person, only yourself. Personally- I'm too old to play WWIII games with ANYBODY. With all sincerity: would much rather be alone. So I can guarantee--- I'm not ever going to do that with a man. That's my choice. And it feels good to know that about myself!!

NaughyChimp · Jul 9, 2012

I've recently come out of a NF/NT romance and while it clearly didn't work out for the long term, I don't think it followed this "Death Spiral." Based on my own experiences and those of others who've written in this thread, I'm going to say that this famed Death Spiral is more like an urban legend than a great truth.

Entropic · Jul 9, 2012

Blue Ocean said:
This sounds infinitely more accurate than the initial theory to me. In fact, I fit all the NT responses pretty much exactly.

Takes a while to get in, but once I'm in, I'm all in on the button. Then the flop comes up clubs and I have hearts and it's the end of the road and I want to destroy humanity.

However, I think it would be different for NTPs and NTJs due to Fe/Fi maybe.

I agree. I'm very cautious about the relationship as well and I need to think and I seek confirmation in order to judge if it's going in the direction I want it to go.

And I like to think that I'm as able to dive in as the NF.

Noelle · Jul 10, 2012

I think its more of a "relationship death spiral" than a NT/NF death spiral.

Here's how mine went:

NT meets NF.
NT acts like he wants nothing to do with NF, NF stays away.
After a few months, NT starts to make random conversation.
NT and NF become friends.
After months, NT and NF date.
NT and NF screw.
After two weeks, NT dumps NF, saying their beliefs aren't compatible and it'll never work out in the long run.
NF pretends she's fine, while crying eyes out for two weeks when no one is looking.

NF meets new NF.
NF and NF start dating.
NT sends a bunch of messages about how NF is a whore and never wants to speak again and then starts banging other people's girlfriends.

...

Yeah I still don't get it either. I like my NF a lot more!

roud:

petite libellule · Jul 10, 2012

Paradox1987 said:
My "worst" romances have been with fellow NFs and my best with NTs. So long as they aren't bereft of emotional intelligence, I think it'll work out fine. It does depend hugely on the maturity levels of both people though.

It's not that this isn't familiar. I think it is familiar generally speaking w/ regards to male / female dynamics. And I think this quote says it best ... "So long as they aren't bereft of emotional intelligence" ... Beautiful! I applaud you x100

Olivia · Jul 10, 2012

The death spiral is real but not inevitable. It's challenging, like riding a horse. You have to be thinking of a half-dozen things at once and be very intentional with all your actions. It can take a long time before it feels easy to do, if you're not among the gifted. By contrast, an NF/NF relationship is like learning to drive a car. So much easier!

Okay, /silly metaphors.

NF/ NT "Death Spiral" - All NFs & NTs encouraged to comment!

pinkrasputin

LadyIrime

saibot

CodeGuru

KateMarie999

Alysaria

Laguna

RoSoDude

Moby

nreynolds1990

iemanja

Elizindrhythm

Antichrist

pmj85

Laguna

NaughyChimp

Entropic

Noelle

petite libellule

Olivia

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